Can we please chill with the LAG Rage. Also suggestion to Devs

[Qhualor]

Hi,

You're mistaken about this, because the post is shot through with words and phrases like 'most' and 'almost never', but with no references to the particular individuals. He is characterising these villains as a homogenous group rather than dealing with the particulars of what people said and why they said it.

The community response to this latest debacle should be quite instructive for Turbine. I agree that there is substantial community anger over this latest problem, and in isolation some of the responses seem unusually vehement. The key though is this isn't an isolated event, but rather yet another problem which perhaps could have been avoided and certainly could be handled better from a customer relations point of view.

My view of this is that it's not happening because there's a core of hateful posters riling everyone up, but rather it's an expression of accumulated resentment at the company's behaviour over a period of years and its inability to learn from its mistakes.

If your customers are baying for your blood, the best thing to do is think about why that is happening rather than look for excuses to brush it off. Ask yourself, why are they angry, and why are they so angry? Defending Turbine for their most recent set of mistakes may seem decent, but it's probably about the worst thing to do if there is a problem with their approach and they are already reluctant to accept it.

Thanks.

nope I'm not. if you read the post he says things like "same half a dozen posters" and "this group of people".

[Qhualor]

However, he is associating the posters he dislikes with the dissatisfaction towards the current issues the game is experiencing. This is a generalization. "Most of the rage threads' fire is actually kept burning by the same half-dozen posters... " is not correct and is an oversimplification of the posts on the forum.

The issue of whether such posters exist or is not important in this thread. Many posters are experiencing lag and many people are unhappy with the current situation. The issues are quite separate and conflating the two does a disservice to players who legitimately wish for the situation to improve.

if I could without getting into trouble I would list these forum posters who do nothing but rail against Turbine, devs and anyone else and have been doing so for months/years. they are so dedicated that they make new dummy accountants to continue the charade.

[blerkington]

nope I'm not. if you read the post he says things like "same half a dozen posters" and "this group of people".

Hi,

Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree then, though another poster also made the same observation about your reply. For what it's worth, I think you are also ignoring most of the main points of my response to you and for some reason are picking away at a detail instead.

The fact that you don't think you're allowed to name these posters doesn't make Changeling's claims any more true. If anything, it highlights what a massive deflection this whole line of argument is, moving the issue away from the details of Turbine's handling of this situation to some unproven shared delusion you have about bad people causing trouble just for the heck of it.

Thanks.

[phalaeo]

No, I cannot "chill". I'm about the most patient person in the world, but this has me really, really ****ed off.

I'm so excited to see so many friends who quit the game and are returning for the 10th anniversary- and you know what? They're re-quitting because of LAG. This is my hobby, this is where I spend time with friends. I pay my VIP, I support the game. And it's **** unplayable right now.

3 nights in a row of unplayability, 3 nights of persistent effects after death, 3 nights of items getting destroyed due to lag death, 3 nights of not wanting to run Elites (which we would normally run) because the lag makes everything turn to ****.

[airbornerangers]

if I could without getting into trouble I would list these forum posters who do nothing but rail against Turbine, devs and anyone else and have been doing so for months/years. they are so dedicated that they make new dummy accountants to continue the charade.

if I could, I would point out the people saying this, are the ones with the inflated post counts!
who is drowning out who?
/signed pallai

[Elsbet]

I think I am in the definitely not going to chill department. I took an extended break and came back only to find that Turbine appears to be imploding. That makes me sad and angry, especially when a fair chunk of the cure is just communication.

[Pehtis]

I think I am in the definitely not going to chill department..... That makes me sad and angry, ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-42QFmgzVo4

[bsquishwizzy]

This is entirely on Turbine.

They chose the new data-center.

I love these kinds of statements.

Anyone who has ever been in one of these major agreements knows that there are ALWAYS gaps in knowledge somewhere on customer and provider side. Provider says they can provide "X", demonstrates they can provide "X", and then after the contract is signed the client finds out that "X" was actually a picture of "Y" really tiny and out-of-focus.

Man...do I ever have stores about those kinds of deals...

[bsquishwizzy]

Well I guess that does it for me. I've decided that the Cordobear needs to be locked in the closet as is apt punishment for this lag-a-palooza. Someone at Turbine MUST pay!

Until then, I'll just look at pictures of Dwarves in spandex armor, and marvel at how they do not show Plumber's Crack when they kneel down to disable a trap. I mean, spandex leggings as "armor" is impressive enough, but not showing buttcrack in a kneeling position? An almost universal impossibility!

[Kompera_Oberon]

Yes we are experiencing Godzilla like lag at the moment (more so than the usual). But you don't seriously believe that the Dev's are not looking into this?

No, we cannot 'chill.' You are so 'cool' when you use 80s terminology to tell other people how they should act. 'Word.'

Some of us actually pay to play this game. We are now paying for an unworkable pile of ****. Would you 'chill' if you paid for something that was not delivered?

To answer your question, sure. I believe the devs are looking into this. But they have utterly failed to communicate with their customers about their issues. The few cases where they have communicated were to ask players to provide information which was not needed and for many customers unable to be provided due to the technical capabilities those requests required.

Severlan very recently posted a 'we pushed a few buttons and pulled a few levers, all is well' post which both demonstrated his ignorance (or he was talking down to his customers, and either one is a terrible choice) and yet still the problem persists.

So, no. There will be no 'chilling' of the lag rage until the lag ends. Why would it chill? FTP or VIP, the game is not delivering service. The power to make this a non-issue has and always will lay with the devs. Fix. Your. Code.

Turbine Developers: You are called 'devs,' make this a real label. If the best you can do is to use a GUI to develop a dungeon, step aside and let someone who has some actual programming skills fix this project.

[Kompera_Oberon]

if I could without getting into trouble I would list these forum posters who do nothing but rail against Turbine, devs and anyone else and have been doing so for months/years. they are so dedicated that they make new dummy accountants to continue the charade.

If I could without getting into trouble I would list these Turbine fanbois who do nothing but support Turbine, devs and anyone else despite their consistent failures and have been doing so for months/years. They are so dedicated that they make new dummy accountants to continue the charade.

Oh, wait. I got another infraction for daring to contradict a PC member, even though we used 95% of the same words on our posts. ****. But Qhualor will be awarded another PC brownie point for this, I am certain.

Qhualor, if you cannot sympathize with the customers who have been so severely and negatively impacted by the New Lag caused by the data center move, then you should resign your position as a member of the Player's Council. Or you should ask that the name be changed to "SuckUp Council," because you are not representing the players when you rant against how the current issues are being correctly described by the players.

Seriously, use your insider position to try to help the players (of which you are a member!), or f*** o**. Sucking up and being a sycophant helps no one, not even yourself.

[CaptainPurge]

If I could without getting into trouble I would list these Turbine fanbois who do nothing but support Turbine, devs and anyone else despite their consistent failures and have been doing so for months/years. They are so dedicated that they make new dummy accountants to continue the charade.

Oh, wait. I got another infraction for daring to contradict a PC member, even though we used 95% of the same words on our posts. ****. But Qhualor will be awarded another PC brownie point for this, I am certain.

Qhualor, if you cannot sympathize with the customers who have been so severely and negatively impacted by the New Lag caused by the data center move, then you should resign your position as a member of the Player's Council. Or you should ask that the name be changed to "SuckUp Council," because you are not representing the players when you rant against how the current issues are being correctly described by the players.

Seriously, use your insider position to try to help the players (of which you are a member!), or f*** o**. Sucking up and being a sycophant helps no one, not even yourself.

not sure where to put this

[Qhualor]

If I could without getting into trouble I would list these Turbine fanbois who do nothing but support Turbine, devs and anyone else despite their consistent failures and have been doing so for months/years. They are so dedicated that they make new dummy accountants to continue the charade.

Oh, wait. I got another infraction for daring to contradict a PC member, even though we used 95% of the same words on our posts. ****. But Qhualor will be awarded another PC brownie point for this, I am certain.

Qhualor, if you cannot sympathize with the customers who have been so severely and negatively impacted by the New Lag caused by the data center move, then you should resign your position as a member of the Player's Council. Or you should ask that the name be changed to "SuckUp Council," because you are not representing the players when you rant against how the current issues are being correctly described by the players.

Seriously, use your insider position to try to help the players (of which you are a member!), or f*** o**. Sucking up and being a sycophant helps no one, not even yourself.

you should probably read my posts instead of flaming me. I am suffering the same lag problems as many other people. you are only proving my point more. would it help if I removed the PC label? I will still post the same way as I always have been.

[Deathdefy]

Yeah... I feel like voicing the extent of my displeasure is actually in Turbine's interests even if it feels unpalatable to the OP.

Here's my situation:
I was on 19/20 Double Dragon raids, expecting to bang one out (since there were usually multiple lfms daily on Khyber) and work on some deep gnome PLs every now and then.
Instead, I have logged in once for a decent session since the data centre move, ran a few raids (not including FoTP, but including L Shroud and L Hound) and hated every second of it due to the lag,
then I've been logging in for ~5 mins every few days and seeing about 3 lfms and logging off.
I don't imagine anyone's running FoTP since it's one of the raids where 'locking up for 30 seconds' is a wipe if dragons are in rage mode, so I'm not going to host it, and I don't really expect anyone else to.
I also can't bring myself to TR and waste the completions, since running solo allegedly is better for lag.
The end of the matter is that well, I am logging in less and less - only once this weekend on Sunday, and not during the week at all.
I probably will check in next weekend once, but the weekend after that I don't know.

What really irks me is I bought 3000 odd TPs for the gnome races immediately prior to the data centre move and odds are I will literally never use the products I bought with those TP.

I'm not quitting, I'm just well, disliking playing quests and raids when I do log in, so I assume that will translate into not bothering to log in at all sooner or later (since I'm not one of those people who can have fun just chatting and not questing).

I'm genuinely annoyed at someone dropping the ball, which translates into frustration with DDO as a whole. It's definitively not most of the devs who I'm annoyed at since the vast majority, I assume, aren't overseeing the boringness of a data centre move and instead are focused on fun content creation and in-game systems. But, that doesn't really matter when the game's effectively unplayable in the sense that I experience lag so frequently and debilitatingly that it's not a genuinely enjoyable experience for me.

Even if I logged in and saw the literal perfect lfm of "EN FoTP - 11/12 filled, hosted by BrattyTop" I honestly reckon I'd still be on the fence on double-clicking it.

Side note that my understanding of ICT agreements of this sort are that they involve pretty specific terms regarding what's an acceptable response time.

My instinct is that it's ludicrous that whatever SLA was negotiated with the new data centre is not worth the paper it was written on because it's either:
1) so terrible as to deem the current situation acceptable, or,
2) so unenforceable that it doesn't matter that it's way below the agreed standards.
If I were Turbine, I would get whatever remedy was available under the contract, or sure for breach of contract if there's no agreed upon penalty.

I'd also communicate that I was holding a third party accountable to the player-base, because with that not being done, I'm thinking it's not actually a third party's fault.

Not that whose fault it is matters, honestly, since the ultimate question for everyone is really just, "am I having enough fun to keep spending my time and money?".

I'm certainly spending less of both.

I honestly was super looking forward to stocking up on some of the new and old gems of fortune and farming Curse the Sky and Creeping Doom with a solid party from channel / my friends list + maybe a pug or two while running a Deep Gnome Illusion Wizard Spec... but that's indefinitely off.

Enough of what is objectively just a rant, but yeah. I feel like people saying "hey, the lag is bad, and it's affecting me in a way that's affecting your bottom-line not just in the short-term, but possibly indefinitely by eroding your long-term player base" is something that should be said.

[Kompera_Oberon]

you should probably read my posts instead of flaming me. I am suffering the same lag problems as many other people. you are only proving my point more. would it help if I removed the PC label? I will still post the same way as I always have been.

Taking them in sentence order:

Why? Really, why? You claiming that I am flaming you is a clear indication that you have a too thin skin.
Great. Now, what are you going to do about it?
How?
No, it would not help. But associating yourself with a failed PR experience is not going to help, either.
Feel free. If you don't feel that you are a suck up, then you have all the power in your own hands to change that impression. Challenge Turbine to fix things, ask them to deliver value for money. Use your PC status as a means to help the customers as opposed to a means to justify the failure to deliver services. Dooo iiiiit.

[Qhualor]

Taking them in sentence order:

Why? Really, why? You claiming that I am flaming you is a clear indication that you have a too thin skin.
Great. Now, what are you going to do about it?
How?
No, it would not help. But associating yourself with a failed PR experience is not going to help, either.
Feel free. If you don't feel that you are a suck up, then you have all the power in your own hands to change that impression. Challenge Turbine to fix things, ask them to deliver value for money. Use your PC status as a means to help the customers as opposed to a means to justify the failure to deliver services. Dooo iiiiit.

lol

you leaving the game would have a much bigger impact on how quickly Turbine fixes the lag problem than me starting an NDA secured thread with Severlin and discussing how to resolve these problems when i am lucky to know how to push the on button on my computer. I am just like everybody else that plays the game, a customer. that PC tag under my name just means Focus Group Member. i just provide feedback to the devs just like veryone else on the council and they do what they will with it. if you want to know how Turbine fares with datacenter moves, than you are better off asking the players with 2006-2008 join dates since they have seen like 2 of them.

[Nyata]

If I could without getting into trouble I would list these Turbine fanbois who do nothing but support Turbine, devs and anyone else despite their consistent failures and have been doing so for months/years. They are so dedicated that they make new dummy accountants to continue the charade.

Oh, wait. I got another infraction for daring to contradict a PC member, even though we used 95% of the same words on our posts. ****. But Qhualor will be awarded another PC brownie point for this, I am certain.

Qhualor, if you cannot sympathize with the customers who have been so severely and negatively impacted by the New Lag caused by the data center move, then you should resign your position as a member of the Player's Council. Or you should ask that the name be changed to "SuckUp Council," because you are not representing the players when you rant against how the current issues are being correctly described by the players.

Seriously, use your insider position to try to help the players (of which you are a member!), or f*** o**. Sucking up and being a sycophant helps no one, not even yourself.

There is issues. yes. no one is denying there are. but there is two ways to talk about the issues.

Ranting, *****ing, raging, calling names, insults, asking for people to get fired - I consider those not only counter productive, I consider them insulting. not just towards the turbine staff, but towards the player base that is trying to be constructive and actually trying to help fix things and pinpoint the problem. now I am pretty sure someone will respond to that with 'the problem is turbine!' or 'the problem is the crappy new servers!' or 'the problem is suck-ups like you!' - and what good does that do? it's beside the topic and does not help get the problems fixed. but it makes a thread even longer again and makes it even harder to find actual information. oh yeh, and i can't imagine that it motivates turbine to talk to us more.

I can't help but wonder why 'being a customer' apparently means to many people that they don't have to stay the least bit polite.

[Eryhn]

I can't help but wonder why 'being a customer' apparently means to many people that they don't have to stay the least bit polite.

im sure there is a couple of people here who always are *that* kind of customer - but im seeing many more than that that feel they have no choice but to sadly become that customer as a certain company is trying VERY hard to prove they are indeed, and cordially remain *that* kind of service provider ...

[Grace_ana]

There is issues. yes. no one is denying there are. but there is two ways to talk about the issues.

Ranting, *****ing, raging, calling names, insults, asking for people to get fired - I consider those not only counter productive, I consider them insulting. not just towards the turbine staff, but towards the player base that is trying to be constructive and actually trying to help fix things and pinpoint the problem. now I am pretty sure someone will respond to that with 'the problem is turbine!' or 'the problem is the crappy new servers!' or 'the problem is suck-ups like you!' - and what good does that do? it's beside the topic and does not help get the problems fixed. but it makes a thread even longer again and makes it even harder to find actual information. oh yeh, and i can't imagine that it motivates turbine to talk to us more.

I can't help but wonder why 'being a customer' apparently means to many people that they don't have to stay the least bit polite.

Having worked in customer service, I can say that the people that act like that are far less likely to get any communication at all, particularly when the customer acts like that right off the bat.

There are several people trying to be productive about the lag issues. Not everyone is being rude. Some people have managed to voice their displeasure in a mature way (Blerkington, I'd count you among them). But there is a large group of people that, frankly, are acting like entitled, hysterical, spoiled brats. They have overblown specific issues, they have far understated or refused to acknowledge any efforts by Turbine staff, they have misrepresented statements by Turbine staff, they have harassed and berated anyone that states their personal experiences in game are different, they have spread massive misinformation, they have been fanatically insulting en masse to Turbine staff, they have spammed the forums to the point of ridiculousness. And they began doing it the second the data center move was completed and there was lag. It wasn't AFTER there was lag for a couple weeks and Turbine refused to acknowledge it or blamed it on other things (two things which they have not done at all here, despite what some have posted).

I already said in another thread that I thought Turbine staff should have prepped the players better for this move. But that ship has sailed, and we can't go back. All we can do is move forward. That doesn't mean everyone pretends things are fine if they are not. But it does mean that there is a way to be displeased and act like an adult, and it would be awesome if everyone could do that. Though, after what I've seen, I don't have high hopes for that.

[karatemack]

Just popped in to say I hope everyone here is having a great day!

Had a lot of fun running through some heroic content today. If you have a chance, feel free to stop by on Khyber!

Cheers!