Wizard & Sorcerer Ideas

[HastyPudding]

There's been quite a bit of talk on the forums of casters lagging behind, specifically the decline of DC casting (which I attribute, in large part, to shiradi casters, but that's neither here nor there) and the sorcerer's lack of inherent damage (I say inherent because their damage comes from the draconic destiny, not the class itself). So, I decided to take a gander at the wizard and sorcerer trees and give a few tweaks; not a full class revamp, because they don't need one, but just some easy-to-do tweaks and balances that would bring them up to speed.

*Note, I have touched eldritch knight, as I don't particularly care of the tree and it needs more than a few tweaks and balances.

WIZARD ARCHMAGE
Energy of the Scholar
~ Increase spell point amount from 30/60/90 to 40/70/100.
~ Reduce AP cost from 2 to 1 per rank.

Traditionalist Caster
~ Reduce the universal spellpower boost from 3/6/10 to 2/4/6.
~ Remove the orb and staff requirements.

Spell Critical: Elemental and Force
~ Increase critical chance from 1% to 2% for all tiers.

Efficient Metamagic
~ Reduce AP costs for all of these to 1 instead of 2. (This is an archmage, a master of maximizing spell potential through specialization, they should be superior with metamagic.)

Spell Penetration
~ Reduce AP cost from 2 to 1 per rank. (Again, this is a wizard archmage, not some run-of-the-mill magician. Spell penetration is essential for wizards to function.)

School Mastery
~ Change from 1 rank to 2 ranks, for a total of +2 to DC's in both tier 4 and 5.

Secondary School Mastery
~ Change from 1 rank to 2 ranks, for a total of +2 to DC's.

Capstone: Master of Magic
~ Increase intelligence bonus from 2 to 4.
~ Increase spellcraft bonus from 5 to 10.
~ Addition: Increase maximum spell points by 100.

*NEW* Traditionalist Caster, tier 2
~ Increase universal spellpower by 2/4/6.
~ 1 AP cost, 3 ranks.
~ Requires tier 1 Traditionalist Caster.


WIZARD PALE MASTER
Deathless Vigor
~ Reduce AP cost from 2 to 1.
~ Addition: Requires you to be in an undead shroud form.

Cloak of Night
~ Remove the toggle effect and spell point cost. This enhancement becomes a passive.
~ Remove the penalty to negative energy, repair, and positive energy amplification.
~ Reduce the light resistance bonus from 20%/35%/50% to 15%/25%/35%.

Eternal Servitude
~ Increase physical resistance rating from +5/+10/+15 to +10/+15/+20.
~ Addition: Also increases magical resistance rating.

Necromantic Focus
~ Change from 1 rank to 2 ranks, for a total of +2 to necromancy DC's.

Capstone: Master of Death
~ Addition: Increase critical damage with negative energy spells by 10%.
~ Addition: +2 to constitution

*NEW* Negative Energy, tier 4
~ Increase negative energy spellpower by 3/6/10.
~ 1 AP cost, 3 ranks.


SORCERER FIRE SAVANT
Fire Affinity, core 2
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with fire spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with water and cold spells.

Immolation, core 4
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with fire spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with water and cold spells.

Capstone: Apotheosis of Fire
~ Increase the charisma bonus from +2 to +4.
~ Elemental form no longer increases spell costs.
~ Addition: Elemental form now increases critical damage with fire spells by 10%.
~ Addition: Elemental form now decreases critical damage with water and cold spells by 10%.

One with the Inferno
~ Addition: Now also increases fire absorption by 5%/10%/15%.

Pierce Fire Resistance
~ Increase fire resistance bypass from 5/10/15 to 20/35/50.

Fire Guard
~ Change from a passive to a toggle.
~ Increase fire guard damage from 3d6 to 3d10. Damage now scales with 75% spellpower.

Heat Death
~ DC changed from constitution modifier to charisma.
~ Reduce spell point cost from 50 to 30.
~ Damage now scales with 50% spellpower.

Evocation Focus
~ Increased evocation DC's by +1 to +2.
~ AP cost increased from 2 to 3.


SORCERER WATER SAVANT
Water Affinity, core 2
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with water and cold spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with fire spells.

Hypothermia, core 4
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with water and cold spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with fire spells.

Capstone: Apotheosis of Water
~ Increase the charisma bonus from +2 to +4.
~ Elemental form no longer increases spell costs.
~ Addition: Elemental form now increases critical damage with water and cold spells by 10%.
~ Addition: Elemental form now decreases critical damage with fire spells by 10%.

One with the Waves
~ Addition: Now also increases cold absorption by 5%/10%/15%.

Pierce Cold Resistance
~ Increase cold resistance bypass from 5/10/15 to 20/35/50.

Water Breathing
~ Addition: You also gain underwater evasion.

Icy Prison
~ DC changed from constitution modifier to charisma.
~ Damage now scales with 50% spellpower.

Evocation Focus
~ Increased evocation DC's by +1 to +2.
~ AP cost increased from 2 to 3.


SORCERER AIR SAVANT
Air Affinity, core 2
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with air, sonic, and electric spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with acid and earth spells.

Conduction, core 4
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with air, sonic, and electric spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with acid and earth spells.

Capstone: Apotheosis of Air
~ Increase the charisma bonus from +2 to +4.
~ Elemental form no longer increases spell costs.
~ Addition: Elemental form now increases critical damage with air, sonic, and electric spells by 10%.
~ Addition: Elemental form now decreases critical damage with acid and earth spells by 10%.

One with the Storm
~ Addition: Now also increases electric absorption by 5%/10%/15%.

Pierce Electric Resistance
~ Increase electric resistance bypass from 5/10/15 to 20/35/50.

Feather Fall
~ Addition: Your movement speed is increased by 10%.

Evocation Focus
~ Increased evocation DC's by +1 to +2.
~ AP cost increased from 2 to 3.


SORCERER EARTH SAVANT
Earth Affinity, core 2
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with acid and earth spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with air, sonic, and electric spells.

Crumbling, core 4
~ Changed the passive effect on spells from armor reduction (useless to any caster) to magical resistance rating reduction by 3 points, stacking up to 5 times.
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with acid and earth spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with air, sonic, and electric spells.

Capstone: Apotheosis of Earth
~ Increase the charisma bonus from +2 to +4.
~ Elemental form no longer increases spell costs.
~ Addition: Elemental form now increases critical damage with acid and earth spells by 10%.
~ Addition: Elemental form now decreases critical damage with air, sonic, and electric spells by 10%.

One with the Soil
~ Addition: Now also increases acid absorption by 5%/10%/15%.

Pierce Acid Resistance
~ Increase acid resistance bypass from 5/10/15 to 20/35/50.

Earthen Armor
~ Armor class increased from 1/2 to 2/4.
~ Addition: Now also increases Physical Resistance Rating by 4/8

Earthgrab
~ DC changed from constitution modifier to charisma.
~ Bludgeoning damage now scales with 50% spellpower.

Conjuration Focus
~ Increased conjuration DC's by +1 to +2.
~ AP cost increased from 2 to 3.

[FifthTime]

These suggestions won't do much to correct the complete imbalance of melee vs caster in end game, which is where to problem is most amplified.

The Wizard suggestions would be a little more useful while your Sorcerer ones are basically a waste and would accomplish nothing.

[HastyPudding]

These suggestions won't do much to correct the complete imbalance of melee vs caster in end game, which is where to problem is most amplified.

The Wizard suggestions would be a little more useful while your Sorcerer ones are basically a waste and would accomplish nothing.

These would be tweaks to the trees just to update them with the more current mechanics of DDO. In and of themselves, the enhancement trees really aren't that bad, and real problem lies with the spells. The scaling on spells needs to be better, and I think scaling the majority of damaging spells further would help more than a radical change and massive buff to the enhancement trees. Most spells were designed to cap out when the end-game was level 20. It was alright when the cap was 25, but once it reached 28 and then 30, things skyrocketed out of control and pretty much all spellcasters lost their edge in the damage department.

They did scale the shout and greater shout spells during the bard enhancement pass, which function pretty well, right now. The same should be done with everything from chill touch, to fireball, to ice storm, and meteor swarm.

Perhaps at some point I will take a gander at the arcane spells and see if something could actually be done to scale them more effectively.

[Ralmeth]

I like the ideas...In regards to Archmage, I keep wanting to play one except that the tree is really junk. The thing that really grinds my gears about the Archmage tree is the spell selection for the SLAs. It's like whoever picked these just picked whatever spells they felt like without any thought as to whether the spell is any good. Instead, I'd rather be able to slot any spell of the appropriate level and school type that you want from your spell book. That should be the power of the archmage tree, and would let everyone customize their Archmage the way they want.

[Lemdog]

There's been quite a bit of talk on the forums of casters lagging behind, specifically the decline of DC casting (which I attribute, in large part, to shiradi casters, but that's neither here nor there) and the sorcerer's lack of inherent damage (I say inherent because their damage comes from the draconic destiny, not the class itself). So, I decided to take a gander at the wizard and sorcerer trees and give a few tweaks; not a full class revamp, because they don't need one, but just some easy-to-do tweaks and balances that would bring them up to speed.

*Note, I have touched eldritch knight, as I don't particularly care of the tree and it needs more than a few tweaks and balances.

WIZARD ARCHMAGE
Energy of the Scholar
~ Increase spell point amount from 30/60/90 to 40/70/100.
~ Reduce AP cost from 2 to 1 per rank.

Traditionalist Caster
~ Reduce the universal spellpower boost from 3/6/10 to 2/4/6.
~ Remove the orb and staff requirements.

Spell Critical: Elemental and Force
~ Increase critical chance from 1% to 2% for all tiers.

Efficient Metamagic
~ Reduce AP costs for all of these to 1 instead of 2. (This is an archmage, a master of maximizing spell potential through specialization, they should be superior with metamagic.)

Spell Penetration
~ Reduce AP cost from 2 to 1 per rank. (Again, this is a wizard archmage, not some run-of-the-mill magician. Spell penetration is essential for wizards to function.)

School Mastery
~ Change from 1 rank to 2 ranks, for a total of +2 to DC's in both tier 4 and 5.

Secondary School Mastery
~ Change from 1 rank to 2 ranks, for a total of +2 to DC's.

Capstone: Master of Magic
~ Increase intelligence bonus from 2 to 4.
~ Increase spellcraft bonus from 5 to 10.
~ Addition: Increase maximum spell points by 100.

*NEW* Traditionalist Caster, tier 2
~ Increase universal spellpower by 2/4/6.
~ 1 AP cost, 3 ranks.
~ Requires tier 1 Traditionalist Caster.


WIZARD PALE MASTER
Deathless Vigor
~ Reduce AP cost from 2 to 1.
~ Addition: Requires you to be in an undead shroud form.

Cloak of Night
~ Remove the toggle effect and spell point cost. This enhancement becomes a passive.
~ Remove the penalty to negative energy, repair, and positive energy amplification.
~ Reduce the light resistance bonus from 20%/35%/50% to 15%/25%/35%.

Eternal Servitude
~ Increase physical resistance rating from +5/+10/+15 to +10/+15/+20.
~ Addition: Also increases magical resistance rating.

Necromantic Focus
~ Change from 1 rank to 2 ranks, for a total of +2 to necromancy DC's.

Capstone: Master of Death
~ Addition: Increase critical damage with negative energy spells by 10%.
~ Addition: +2 to constitution

*NEW* Negative Energy, tier 4
~ Increase negative energy spellpower by 3/6/10.
~ 1 AP cost, 3 ranks.


SORCERER FIRE SAVANT
Fire Affinity, core 2
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with fire spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with water and cold spells.

Immolation, core 4
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with fire spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with water and cold spells.

Capstone: Apotheosis of Fire
~ Increase the charisma bonus from +2 to +4.
~ Elemental form no longer increases spell costs.
~ Addition: Elemental form now increases critical damage with fire spells by 10%.
~ Addition: Elemental form now decreases critical damage with water and cold spells by 10%.

One with the Inferno
~ Addition: Now also increases fire absorption by 5%/10%/15%.

Pierce Fire Resistance
~ Increase fire resistance bypass from 5/10/15 to 20/35/50.

Fire Guard
~ Change from a passive to a toggle.
~ Increase fire guard damage from 3d6 to 3d10. Damage now scales with 75% spellpower.

Heat Death
~ DC changed from constitution modifier to charisma.
~ Reduce spell point cost from 50 to 30.
~ Damage now scales with 50% spellpower.

Evocation Focus
~ Increased evocation DC's by +1 to +2.
~ AP cost increased from 2 to 3.


SORCERER WATER SAVANT
Water Affinity, core 2
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with water and cold spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with fire spells.

Hypothermia, core 4
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with water and cold spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with fire spells.

Capstone: Apotheosis of Water
~ Increase the charisma bonus from +2 to +4.
~ Elemental form no longer increases spell costs.
~ Addition: Elemental form now increases critical damage with water and cold spells by 10%.
~ Addition: Elemental form now decreases critical damage with fire spells by 10%.

One with the Waves
~ Addition: Now also increases cold absorption by 5%/10%/15%.

Pierce Cold Resistance
~ Increase cold resistance bypass from 5/10/15 to 20/35/50.

Water Breathing
~ Addition: You also gain underwater evasion.

Icy Prison
~ DC changed from constitution modifier to charisma.
~ Damage now scales with 50% spellpower.

Evocation Focus
~ Increased evocation DC's by +1 to +2.
~ AP cost increased from 2 to 3.


SORCERER AIR SAVANT
Air Affinity, core 2
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with air, sonic, and electric spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with acid and earth spells.

Conduction, core 4
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with air, sonic, and electric spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with acid and earth spells.

Capstone: Apotheosis of Air
~ Increase the charisma bonus from +2 to +4.
~ Elemental form no longer increases spell costs.
~ Addition: Elemental form now increases critical damage with air, sonic, and electric spells by 10%.
~ Addition: Elemental form now decreases critical damage with acid and earth spells by 10%.

One with the Storm
~ Addition: Now also increases electric absorption by 5%/10%/15%.

Pierce Electric Resistance
~ Increase electric resistance bypass from 5/10/15 to 20/35/50.

Feather Fall
~ Addition: Your movement speed is increased by 10%.

Evocation Focus
~ Increased evocation DC's by +1 to +2.
~ AP cost increased from 2 to 3.


SORCERER EARTH SAVANT
Earth Affinity, core 2
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with acid and earth spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with air, sonic, and electric spells.

Crumbling, core 4
~ Changed the passive effect on spells from armor reduction (useless to any caster) to magical resistance rating reduction by 3 points, stacking up to 5 times.
~ Addition: +10% critical damage with acid and earth spells.
~ Addition: -10% critical damage with air, sonic, and electric spells.

Capstone: Apotheosis of Earth
~ Increase the charisma bonus from +2 to +4.
~ Elemental form no longer increases spell costs.
~ Addition: Elemental form now increases critical damage with acid and earth spells by 10%.
~ Addition: Elemental form now decreases critical damage with air, sonic, and electric spells by 10%.

One with the Soil
~ Addition: Now also increases acid absorption by 5%/10%/15%.

Pierce Acid Resistance
~ Increase acid resistance bypass from 5/10/15 to 20/35/50.

Earthen Armor
~ Armor class increased from 1/2 to 2/4.
~ Addition: Now also increases Physical Resistance Rating by 4/8

Earthgrab
~ DC changed from constitution modifier to charisma.
~ Bludgeoning damage now scales with 50% spellpower.

Conjuration Focus
~ Increased conjuration DC's by +1 to +2.
~ AP cost increased from 2 to 3.

Finally, some really good ideas for theoretical caster passes

+1

[Requiro]

I like the ideas...In regards to Archmage, I keep wanting to play one except that the tree is really junk. The thing that really grinds my gears about the Archmage tree is the spell selection for the SLAs. It's like whoever picked these just picked whatever spells they felt like without any thought as to whether the spell is any good. Instead, I'd rather be able to slot any spell of the appropriate level and school type that you want from your spell book. That should be the power of the archmage tree, and would let everyone customize their Archmage the way they want.

Great idea, but will never happen. Only Devs know why not...

[Basura_Grande]

These suggestions won't do much to correct the complete imbalance of melee vs caster in end game, which is where to problem is most amplified.

Quite frankly melee needs a nerf.

But since I don't think that'll happen, just stop with the saves in the stratosphere quests and rework Draconic and Magister. It's the ED's that are the point of fail.

Does anyone who isn't an idiot think Wizards/sorcs are weak in heroics?

[HastyPudding]

Quite frankly melee needs a nerf.

But since I don't think that'll happen, just stop with the saves in the stratosphere quests and rework Draconic and Magister. It's the ED's that are the point of fail.

Does anyone who isn't an idiot think Wizards/sorcs are weak in heroics?

Heroics isn't the issue. Almost every build is OP in heroics. Epics is the issue. Both arcane and divine spells (and artificer infusions) were designed for heroic cap at 20 in mind. They simply don't scale well, if at all, into epic levels. Fireball was good when the cap was 20, maybe even 25. But now? It's not all that great. That's the main issue: the spell scaling beyond level 20.

These ideas were just tweaks and balances to bring wizards and sorcerers up to date on the newest game mechanics and in line with the revamped classes. Spell scaling will fix most problems, while revamping draconic, magister, primal avatar, and tweaking fatesinger will bring things into focus.

[janave]

I think most notyettouched classes (and some races) would improved greatly by a "simple" AP/Perk pass. Reducing the notsocool but mandatory stuff from 2->1 would do wonders with minimal investment.

Traditional casters definitely need a pass now to at least come out on par with Warlocks, as long as they have a bluebar, and it shouldnt calculate in EDs, and epic levels, because the last time that was not very well thought out, devs actually made the worse offender Wlock build even more OP...

[SzeBeta]

Quite frankly melee needs a nerf.

But since I don't think that'll happen, just stop with the saves in the stratosphere quests and rework Draconic and Magister. It's the ED's that are the point of fail.

Does anyone who isn't an idiot think Wizards/sorcs are weak in heroics?

i play lots of wiz/sorc types, and have for years. Undoubtedly i have watched their dps and CC capabilities dwindle. i definitely think a tweaking in both the heroic enhancements AND the epic destinies have been and are in order, and/or maybe even a re-working of the spell power clickies to bring those back into something that's actually useful (although i don't believe casters should be dependent on clickies either).

Quite frankly, melee does need a bit of a nerf, and casters need a bit of an upgrade. Melee toons get more hit points, armor class, prr and mrr and now get ultimate in dps, not to mention that every swing they take with their weapon is free and costs absolutely nothing. While casters get very low hit points, no valuable armor class, and every spell costs them in the way of spell points (out of spell points = out of action and probably dead). In addition, not only does the casters "swing" cost spell points but a successful concentration check must also be made for the spell to MAYBE possibly still work (BTW, without quicken, you're gonna fail your concentration check). All this in mind, caster DPS should be at the top of the DPS table. Traditionally, casters have always been the squishiest, easiest to kill; but also, the most deadliest.

As for weak in heroics, c'mon are u kidding me? No one is weak in heroics. But lets save that topic for another thread while still considering the "weakness" of sorc/wiz in heroic levels. The wiz/sorc class always has started weak, very weak, and grown into great power. As it stands right now, they are a bit weak (and should be) at the lower levels and peak in their performance about mid-heroic levels in the game then begin to dwindle and fade again. That dwindle and fade should be addressed.

[HastyPudding]

I think most notyettouched classes (and some races) would improved greatly by a "simple" AP/Perk pass. Reducing the notsocool but mandatory stuff from 2->1 would do wonders with minimal investment.

Traditional casters definitely need a pass now to at least come out on par with Warlocks, as long as they have a bluebar, and it shouldnt calculate in EDs, and epic levels, because the last time that was not very well thought out, devs actually made the worse offender Wlock build even more OP...

Agreed. Look at the spell points enhancement, for example. The spellsinger and deepwood stalker trees have the same enhancement, giving 30/60/100 maximum spell points and giving the magical training feat (+80 spell points and echos of power) at rank 3: both cost 1 AP per tank. The archmage tree, however, costs 2 AP per rank and only give 30/60/90, with no other benefits. This is horrifically askew. If it costs 2 AP per rank, it should give 60/120/200 spell points or be reduced to 1 AP per rank and gain the same as the other spell point enhancements.

I also had the idea of archmage gaining a stronger 'echos of power' in the cores, increasing the threshold for activating it by 5 for each core.

i play lots of wiz/sorc types, and have for years. Undoubtedly i have watched their dps and CC capabilities dwindle. i definitely think a tweaking in both the heroic enhancements AND the epic destinies have been and are in order, and/or maybe even a re-working of the spell power clickies to bring those back into something that's actually useful (although i don't believe casters should be dependent on clickies either).

Quite frankly, melee does need a bit of a nerf, and casters need a bit of an upgrade. Melee toons get more hit points, armor class, prr and mrr and now get ultimate in dps, not to mention that every swing they take with their weapon is free and costs absolutely nothing. While casters get very low hit points, no valuable armor class, and every spell costs them in the way of spell points (out of spell points = out of action and probably dead). In addition, not only does the casters "swing" cost spell points but a successful concentration check must also be made for the spell to MAYBE possibly still work (BTW, without quicken, you're gonna fail your concentration check). All this in mind, caster DPS should be at the top of the DPS table. Traditionally, casters have always been the squishiest, easiest to kill; but also, the most deadliest.

As for weak in heroics, c'mon are u kidding me? No one is weak in heroics. But lets save that topic for another thread while still considering the "weakness" of sorc/wiz in heroic levels. The wiz/sorc class always has started weak, very weak, and grown into great power. As it stands right now, they are a bit weak (and should be) at the lower levels and peak in their performance about mid-heroic levels in the game then begin to dwindle and fade again. That dwindle and fade should be addressed.

Casters are not DPS. An assassin, wolf druid build, unarmed monk, and sometimes a tempest would be considered DPS. Casters are 'damage', more often referred to nukers. The difference, I think, eludes many gamers. DPS stands for damage per second, meaning the amount of damage given per second relative to the time spent fighting. High DPS does not automatically equate high damage, in fact, most of the time a DPS character has low damage, but attacks so quickly or has so many proc'd effects that it seems like high damage. A good example of this is a druid wolf or an unarmed monk, who don't have high damage, but have fast attack speed and/or high doublestrike, or an assassin whose damage is low, but has a large amount of sneak attack damage procing with each attack. The only caster that should even be considered DPS is a light cannon cleric or favored soul, which spams SP-efficient, moderate damage light spells. A blastlock, a warlock that uses chain, cone, or normal eldritch blasts, could be considered a DPS caster, but they're not a traditional spellcaster, so, like the developers said, they're more like a ranged character than a spellcaster.

Traditional casters like sorcerers, wizards, druids, non-cannon clerics/favored souls, and spellsinger bards would be nukers; this is especially true for sorcerers (and favored souls, if they ever got some decent damage spells). Their DPS is quite low, due to casting times and cooldowns, but their damage and burst damage is high. Their melee equivalent would be a typical THF barbarian; slower attack speed, but high damage per hit. Casters in DDO are much different from casters in other games, where they are limited to only cloth armor and have much lower base HP and innate survivability than other classes. Casters in DDO have the freedom to wear heavier armor, provided they are proficient and have arcane spell failure reduction, can quicken spells to be faster, and abuse effects like a shiradi abomination. Thus, casters in DDO are more about moderate damage, but to multiple enemies at once, and playing on elemental weaknesses in addition to their general safety from being ranged.

What I'm saying is a wizard or sorcerer doesn't need the absurdly high damage and crits of a barbarian, but should have better potential with damage than they do now. Warlocks have set the bar for magic damage; so I say wizards and sorcerers should be doing at least 1.5x the damage of a strong eldritch blast with each spell they cast, fluctuating high or low depending on the spell, balanced via spell point costs, stacking metamagic costs, cooldowns, concentration checks, etc. Spell scaling is vital to this, and not just more caster levels, but the spells themselves are the issue; you either need to change all spells to a high maximum caster level or give some sort of bonus in epics to caster levels/maximum caster levels. The caster levels from epic destinies just don't cut it, anymore.

[Eth]

If you look at the top notch nuking builds you'll notice that the majority of the DPS already lies in epic abilities and spells.

A caster pass doesn't need to happen in the enhancements (though I like the small changes in the OP and would welcome them, a lot of the stuff in those trees is overcostet at this point), but mainly needs to happen in the heroic spells, when it comes to damage. Classic CC and instakill spells are fine from what they do (just don't screw up mob saves, sometimes it feels to me turbine forgets there's a roll of 1d20 added to a save...).


Furthermore metamagic cost needs adjustment. When you run around with 700 spellpower standing, what is the point of increasing a spell by another 150 spellpower when it doubles (or even more) the spells cost? This is barely but somewhat balanced in heroics. In epics metamagics are only useful for SLAs. From a SP efficiency perspective they are useless.

[HastyPudding]

If you look at the top notch nuking builds you'll notice that the majority of the DPS already lies in epic abilities and spells.

A caster pass doesn't need to happen in the enhancements (though I like the small changes in the OP and would welcome them, a lot of the stuff in those trees is overcostet at this point), but mainly needs to happen in the heroic spells, when it comes to damage. Classic CC and instakill spells are fine from what they do (just don't screw up mob saves, sometimes it feels to me turbine forgets there's a roll of 1d20 added to a save...).


Furthermore metamagic cost needs adjustment. When you run around with 700 spellpower standing, what is the point of increasing a spell by another 150 spellpower when it doubles (or even more) the spells cost? This is barely but somewhat balanced in heroics. In epics metamagics are only useful for SLAs. From a SP efficiency perspective they are useless.

I've been saying that for months: sorcerer isn't that strong of a class, it's their synergy with the draconic destiny that gives them damage. Take away the draconic abilities and sorcerer is mediocre damage, at best, and little better than a wizard. Having 5,000 spell points means nothing when it takes 400+ to kill a small amount of legendary elite monsters.

I am in agreement on the caster pass. The trees just need a little update and cost reduction; archmage, in particular, is one of the most costly trees, tied for 7th most expensive with season's herald in needing 78 total AP to get everything in the tree (yes, I tallied up all trees and made a list). In heroics, arcane casters are fine. In epics, they lose a lot of spell scaling going into the 25+ level range. In legendary elite they are reduced to supportive damage, at best, and most rely on epic destiny abilities, or very expensive epic spells, and spell penetration and mob save issues plague DC casters in level 28+ elite quests. Spell scaling and caster levels are the issues and solutions.

I'm in agreement with metamagic costs, too. The costs need to be reduced. I copied this from a thread I made a while back about possible feat changes:

Empower - Reduce additional cost from 15 to 10. Add a passive +25 maximum spell points.

Maximize - Reduce additional cost from 25 to 18. Add a passive +25 maximum spell points.

Empower Healing - Add a passive +25 maximum spell points.

Extend - Add a passive +25 maximum spell points.

Enlarge - Reduce additional cost from 10 to 8. Add a passive +25 maximum spell points.

Eschew Materials - Add a passive +25 maximum spell points.

Heighten - Reduce additional cost from 5 per caster level to 3. Add a passive +25 maximum spell points.

Quicken - Add a passive +25 maximum spell points.

[Eth]

..archmage, in particular, is one of the most costly trees, tied for 7th most expensive with season's herald in needing 78 total AP to get everything in the tree (yes, I tallied up all trees and made a list).

Haha, the pain of spending points in that tree. They made almost everything cost 2. Actually I currently run 1 point in Subtle Spellcasting because that was the only way to offset an odd AP spending, since I needed to get to tier 5 with excactly 30 points spent.

On the other hand with the passive +1 universal spellpower and +2 SP per AP spend it at least has the strongest core1 together with AoV. So at least it doesn't feel that bad to put rather useless points into the tree.

[arminius]

I like the idea of the tweaks, and agree that some better scaling of heroic spells is definitely needed.

But the real problem to me is just the existence of Warlocks. I have a difficult time imagining what you could do to Wizards, Sorcs, and casting Divines that could top "Warlocks do everything for free." Except just making everything the other casters do free too, which is just doubling down on crazy.

Every quest I run where the Warlocks skip every shrine with a meh makes me despair ever running my casters in a serious group a little bit more.

[JOTMON]

Double the size of the spell book.
Currently there is little to no need wizards to switch up spells at shrines..
or Sorcs to even care about missing out on spells due to the limited selection.. especially at higher levels...

add some Meta's or higher level spells toat would allow for mass versions of currently single target spells.
Mass Blurr, Mass GH.

[HastyPudding]

Haha, the pain of spending points in that tree. They made almost everything cost 2. Actually I currently run 1 point in Subtle Spellcasting because that was the only way to offset an odd AP spending, since I needed to get to tier 5 with excactly 30 points spent.

On the other hand with the passive +1 universal spellpower and +2 SP per AP spend it at least has the strongest core1 together with AoV. So at least it doesn't feel that bad to put rather useless points into the tree.

The spell points costing 2 AP per rank is laughable when RANGERS get theirs for 1 AP and gain 10 more spell points. Clerics have the same amount of 30/60/90 and are also 1 AP a rank, so why is the wizard's the only one costing 2 AP? The amount of metamagics in the archmage tree is nice, but they're very expensive for such little gain, and should be reduced.

I like the idea of the tweaks, and agree that some better scaling of heroic spells is definitely needed.

But the real problem to me is just the existence of Warlocks. I have a difficult time imagining what you could do to Wizards, Sorcs, and casting Divines that could top "Warlocks do everything for free." Except just making everything the other casters do free too, which is just doubling down on crazy.

Every quest I run where the Warlocks skip every shrine with a meh makes me despair ever running my casters in a serious group a little bit more.

I love my scholar warlock, but they definitely ruined things for traditional casters. The eldritch blast should have never been made an auto-attack. They should have made it a single cast, low cooldown, no-cost SLA given at level 1 which gained strength as you leveled and could be augmented with essences and shapes as it is, now. This is fairly identical to the PnP version. The speed at which warlocks can cast their blasts completely eclipses anything a caster could do in the same amount of time.

Shiradi has certainly not helped the situation for casters, either. Spells and effects now have to be balanced around shiradi abominations, hampering good, solid fixes and new spells for all spellcasters.

Double the size of the spell book.
Currently there is little to no need wizards to switch up spells at shrines..
or Sorcs to even care about missing out on spells due to the limited selection.. especially at higher levels...

add some Meta's or higher level spells toat would allow for mass versions of currently single target spells.
Mass Blurr, Mass GH.

The last thing we need is more caster feats. You barely have enough -- or not enough in some cases -- slots for all of your necessary heroic feats, let alone all of the useful epic feats. The issue is with the spells themselves and their scaling in epics. Fix the caster level situation and you solve a good 70% of the problems with spellcasters.

I don't know about double the spellbook size, or even if it would matter. It would certainly help in some spell levels, like arcane level 3, but in the long haul, it's not that great. There are a ton of useless or highly situational spells that nobody is going to slot. If it mattered, I'd say give wizards and sorcerers both one more slot per spell level.

Mass spells would definitely be useful, but then there really would be a need for extra spell slots.

[JOTMON]

The last thing we need is more caster feats. You barely have enough -- or not enough in some cases -- slots for all of your necessary heroic feats, let alone all of the useful epic feats. The issue is with the spells themselves and their scaling in epics. Fix the caster level situation and you solve a good 70% of the problems with spellcasters.

I don't know about double the spellbook size, or even if it would matter. It would certainly help in some spell levels, like arcane level 3, but in the long haul, it's not that great. There are a ton of useless or highly situational spells that nobody is going to slot. If it mattered, I'd say give wizards and sorcerers both one more slot per spell level.

Mass spells would definitely be useful, but then there really would be a need for extra spell slots.

meh , there are more than enough free feats to get almost all of the useful feats, barely a need to really have to lock in choices.
Spell power is the scaling. wizards and sorcs don't have the caster level issues a cleric would have... Divines are the ones getting screwed over by caster levels.

No more slots, just more spell choices. there needs to be more versatility and variety to available spells. currently you pick your spells and rarely if ever have to swap any of them throughout the entire caster life.,

Nope, no more slots, just more hard choices and wizards stopping at shrines to swap spells.
Could do something like a using a feat to purchase more spell slots.. like Improved Spell Capacity..
few others here... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats...dSpellCapacity

could also add level 10 spells...

[HastyPudding]

meh , there are more than enough free feats to get almost all of the useful feats, barely a need to really have to lock in choices.
Spell power is the scaling. wizards and sorcs don't have the caster level issues a cleric would have... Divines are the ones getting screwed over by caster levels.

No more slots, just more spell choices. there needs to be more versatility and variety to available spells. currently you pick your spells and rarely if ever have to swap any of them throughout the entire caster life.,

Nope, no more slots, just more hard choices and wizards stopping at shrines to swap spells.
Could do something like a using a feat to purchase more spell slots.. like Improved Spell Capacity..
few others here... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats...dSpellCapacity

could also add level 10 spells...

DC casters are very tight on feats, especially now that end-game pretty much requires that you take as many spell focus feats and spell penetration feats as possible.

There was a thread in the general chat forums a little bit ago discussing new spells. I would love to see some more elemental spells, especially higher level ones. Arcanes are missing so many good ones:

Time Stop (no-save aoe stun)
Firebrand (kind of like chain missiles, but fire-based)
Isaac's Lesser/Greater Missile Storm (probably not a good idea until they get rid of shiradi)
Vitriolic Sphere (like ball lightning, but deals acid damage)
Arc of Lightning (like chain lightning but is a persistent area effect)
Lightning Ray (like niac's ray, but with electric)
Weird (mass phantasmal killer)
Confusion (warlock has it, but it should be available to all arcanes)
Silence (same as above)
Spell Mantles (protects vs magic spells)