Sorcerer the Underling

[FifthTime]

When i play with my sorc in a group that doesnt need me to blast everything, since they have enough dps as it is, i soften mobs up and generally help out with whatever is needed. I have no ego vested in my playing.

So you agree then, Sorcerers have been relegated to being a useless piking class.

Glad we figured that out.

[bartharok]

So you agree then, Sorcerers have been relegated to being a useless piking class.

Glad we figured that out.

In your mind, since your wellbeing is tied to feeling like a kind in ddo. Me, i just enjoy playing.

And quite often i CAN outdps people on a sorc, i just dont feel the need to do so.

[bartharok]

So you haven't answered. But okay.

I have time to read 36 names. Go ahead. Or just go on with your Sorcerer/s or the ones you use for the Epic quests.

Heh. I dont need to know you or have you know me in game, since i think we see too much of eachother on the forums as it is.

[FifthTime]

In your mind, since your wellbeing is tied to feeling like a kind in ddo. Me, i just enjoy playing.

And quite often i CAN outdps people on a sorc, i just dont feel the need to do so.

Winning the kill count doesn't mean anything if you are useless in the boss fight, which Sorcerers are.

Enjoy your piking.

[bartharok]

Winning the kill count doesn't mean anything if you are useless in the boss fight, which Sorcerers are.

Enjoy your piking.

Pike if you wish.

But learn to use a sorc effectively and you dont have to.

[Wizza]

Heh. I dont need to know you or have you know me in game, since i think we see too much of eachother on the forums as it is.

As expected

[Morroiel]

I adapt to whatever toon im playing. Including whatever is bugged with it, when something is. If i played them all the same way, all but one of them would probably be awful.

And i have 36 toons on argo, so telling you their names would be pointless, since i swap between them several times a week. Thats another way of adapting, i can play whatever suits my mood at the moment.

So you can make anything work...including sorcerer...by just swapping to something that does work like melees.... wow why didn't I think of that....

Some people just amaze me with how bad their logic skills are.....

[bartharok]

So you can make anything work...including sorcerer...by just swapping to something that does work like melees.... wow why didn't I think of that....

Some people just amaze me with how bad their logic skills are.....

Umm... Methinks you should reread what i said, which was quite the opposite.

When i play a sorc, i dont try to play a warlock or fighter, i play a sorc.

When i play something else, i play it like it plays best.

And when i want to play a certain kind of toon, i play it, since i have 36 different toons to choose from.

[Marshal_Lannes]

What is occuring is codex creep, a term made famous by a certain miniature gaming company in which each race got a new codex (game book) and it was slightly more powerful than all that had come before it (because they wanted people to buy it). The OP obviously want's Sorcs to be as powerful as Warlocks. Or, more specifically, to play like them. It seems that Shiradi Sorcs were one of the go to epic builds for a long time. The OP likely enjoyed this era and felt powerful. Nothing has been done to reduce the power of the Shiradi Sorcs, it's just that there has been a surge of Class Enhancements that have made the Shiradi Sorc look, by comparison, weaker. There are the high end melee classes such as Bards, Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians and the high end ranged classes like Rogues and Rangers. Just as the rise of the Mechanic and AA/DWS Ranger spelled the end of the Monkarcher, so too did the Warlock spell the end of Shiradi Sorc. Note - I say end because these new classes/enhancements do it better. You obviously can still roll up a monk archer, it just won't be the best ranged build in the game anymore.

It is hear where I get conflicting information from the OP. He wants Sorcs relevant again but doesn't want power creep. Obviously the Devs are not going to delete the Warlock class so let's just dismiss this option. It then becomes a question of how much will all the other caster classes be elevated to compare with Warlock. Wizards were buffed with U29 and the random loot pass allowing them to get pretty high Necro DCs and once again Pale Masters show up in Epics. The release of Gnomes seems like a push for a non-Necro DC school of casting but to base the class on Illusion then not release any new Illusion spells seems a bit half finished. Surely 2 or 3 new Illusion spells could have been rolled out? At least Wizards and DC casting play different from Warlocks. But what do we do with FVS and Clerics? Or Artificers? How do you make any of these classes still unique and not be Warlock Lites? Or worse better than Warlocks?

The claim that Sorcs are useless is unfounded. Shiradi Sorcs are just as powerful as they have always been, they are just not up as high up on the DPS chart now. Some want Sorcs moved up that chart again, but all that does is rearrange the chart where eventually, far down the road, you have to go back and start from the beginning and rebuff Bards again. See the circle? Perhaps it is better to look at ways to make the Sorc a unique gaming experience instead of just trying to make them into Warlocks.

[Wizza]

Shiradi Sorcs

Lol. Please don't talk about Sorcs if you dont know what you are talking about.

[jellyfish21]

Well done, Marshal, with your reply. You seem to understand the negative effect of a spiral game. Your idea on unique classes is impressive thought. (Your writing, grammar and paragraph structure is well done.) Your opinion of keeping this game attractive to new-comers will be interesting to read.

The game may be going downhill with a cash problem, creating less than for our desires. It is natural to feel empathy with developers at a humane level. Certainly, I feel gratitude for the work they have done.

I have played D&D for over 40 years. The game came out with Dwarf as a class. The game spiraled out of control, seeing PHB II as its final problem, making fighters and wizards with a gestalt idea. Today, the only good PNP games have DM's limiting resources for players, only allowing the Player's Handbook.

So, to be fair, DDO II needs to be explored by developers as a profitable coarse of action, taking advantage of a clean slate. But, the coarse of the game may be laid out in preparation to expansions and adventure packs, laid out at the introduction on the first draft of the game. Four base classes are needed: melee, arcane caster, divine caster and rogue. These four basic classes could be held together throughout all future developments. If needed, children under the age of ten may be consulted as well as their parents, all in order to have foresight into the game's future.

Thank you all for taking the time to discuss these ideas.

addendum: I do not approve of the bickering above.

post script: Thank you again, Marshal.

[RistoffDervish]

Lol. Please don't talk about Sorcs if you dont know what you are talking about.

What does this kind of post add to the discussion? His post actually makes a lot of sense and he didn't say mini-thor once so +1 for that, Marshall.

[Wizza]

What does this kind of post add to the discussion? His post actually makes a lot of sense and he didn't say mini-thor once so +1 for that, Marshall.

Trying to avoid a discussion made by someone who talks about Shiradi Sorcs as actual Sorcs.

[RistoffDervish]

Trying to avoid a discussion made by someone who talks about Shiradi Sorcs as actual Sorcs.

Well maybe I'm the one who does not know what he is talking about then. Last time I played a sorc was in the old enhancement system with prestige enhancements and elemental savants. When I saw Shiradi Sorc I just figured it was some new enhancement or style. Everything else made sense if I just ignored the Shiradi part of the sorc name.

[FifthTime]

Shiradi Sorcs are just as powerful as they have always been...

*Facepalm*

Good grief.

This is why caster classes in DDO are doomed to forever be useless.

[Wizza]

Well maybe I'm the one who does not know what he is talking about then. Last time I played a sorc was in the old enhancement system with prestige enhancements and elemental savants. When I saw Shiradi Sorc I just figured it was some new enhancement or style. Everything else made sense if I just ignored the Shiradi part of the sorc name.

And you +1 him even and admitting you have played a Sorcerer 3 years ago. Alright.

Gotta agree with the comment above.

[RistoffDervish]

And you +1 him even and admitting you have played a Sorcerer 3 years ago. Alright.

Gotta agree with the comment above.

The +1 was just for not saying mini-thor.

[Wizza]

The +1 was just for not saying mini-thor.

Ah okay, that makes it much better.

[Hobgoblin]

Trying to avoid a discussion made by someone who talks about Shiradi Sorcs as actual Sorcs.

just as a note here - i can think of at least 3 times that shiradi sorcs were nerfed.

[HastyPudding]

*Facepalm*

Good grief.

This is why caster classes in DDO are doomed to forever be useless.

I'm glad other people see things the way I do. Shiradi is a toxic destiny that has basically given rise to lazy spellcasters, which then caused DC casting and traditional nuke casting to go downhill and not receive the proper developer attention it needs. With revamps and tweaks and balances, the developers have to keep in mind how it will impact shiradi casters and how shiradi casters impact the game. I used to love the idea of the two Isaac's Magic Missile Storm spells being added to the game, but now I shudder to think what it would do because of shiradi.

It's all easily fixable by simply removing the ability to proc shiradi effects via spells, or at the very least, giving the proc rate on spells a cooldown to prevent it from happening 10 times a second with magic missile spells. Once you remove shiradi out of the equation, spellcasting can get back on its rightful course. Sadly, the devs don't have the guts to say "No, you can't have that" to their customers without said customers going on a rampage with their silly torch and pitchfork images, so it'll never happen. That and they let shiradi fester for too long without removing it to the point where it's now a drooling abscess with a Winnie the Pooh bandaid over it.