Are Quests long enough?

[GoldyGopher]

Quest Length
I have tried to introduce DDO to a fairly decent sized pool of players over the years. Today not one of those players is still actively playing DDO.
In real life I have sat down with a baker’s dozen of these players in a series of “round table discussions with adult beverages” and talked about DDO as well as their preferred MMORPG and what they saw as the differences. These players are seasoned veteran players in their game of choice and I was fairly shocked, okay maybe not the right term but that’s another story, with their reasoning.

Quest Length was an answer I heard over and over from these players. To be honest I have heard that answer before so I pressed a little trying to further understand these players’ issues.

• A lot of time is spent zoning and doing admin work in DDO, that’s time you are not spent questing.
• Well it is nice not to have a five minute run to where ever the quests are located, you feel more engaged running than clicking this guy for the quest and then that guy to advance the quest than click that door and zone.
  
  As a note I am not sure which quests you have to talk to more than one NPC but it was almost unanimous opinion from the people I talked to.
• I ran a number of quests that took about five to ten minutes a piece, add the three to five minutes you spend outside of the quest getting to the next one it seems like such a waste.

From the perspective of these players in general [it wasn’t unanimous] they want to spend about 15 minutes to an hour in a zone running three, maybe as many as six quests at a time, zone out and do the few minutes’ worth of admin, bio, and so forth, than zone into the next quest zone.
We talked about the quests they liked:

• Misery’s Peak
• Waterworks
• Proof is in the Poison
• The Tear of Dhakaan
• Gwylan’s Stand
• Stormcleave

Quests that were somewhere in the middle

• Irestone Inlet
• The Depths series
• The Smuggler’s Warehouse
• A Man Named Baudry Cartamon
• Information is Key

And those that were not liked

• Cannith Crystal
• Heyton's Rest
• Necromancer’s Doom
• The solo quests – Arachnophobia, The Miller’s Debt, Home Sweet Sewer
• The Captives

There was a lot more discussion on what would improve game play in terms of quest length. One of the comments that got lots of play from my friends was the idea of combining thematically similar existing zones together to create larger zones.

One example would be combining Heyton's Rest, Necromancer's Doom and Arachnophobia into a single zone, have all three quest givers either right outside the quest or in an entrance foyer.



Once we that came out we started talking about other quests zones that should be combined. One that came out immediately, the Warehouse District in Stormreach.


Without question parts of those quests would need to be redesigned.

A Man Named Baudry Cartamon is now placed where Tambor is located in the Harbor. He directs you into the zone to talk to Tambor and set the traps. Once that is complete you are directed to find Harmon who wants to destroy the boxes holding Hazadill's shipments, and collect a token from an artifact crate hidden a crate somewhere in the lower section of the warehouse.

Smuggler's Warehouse Fitzpat is located next to Baudry and throughout the entire warehouse his gems are hidden. Find ten and return.

Kobolds' New Ringleader Guard Jung has lost his badge and some kobold has it. Treasure drop from a Kobold. Find Bloodknuckle's and The Kobold chief who has allied with him, somewhere in the Upper Warehouse.

Stealthy Repossession Not sure how it would work so I left it off for now.

In closing, I know work on retrofitting old quests and dungeons clearly takes away from development of new content, something else I think the game sorely needs, however the individuals I talked to truly believed that creating longer and larger quest zones would keep them in the game longer than what they stayed.

[PsychoBlonde]

Have them run The Pit and Stormcleave Outpost and Temple of Elemental Evil (both parts) back-to-back. Cold. They're not allowed to look up the quest on the wiki or otherwise get hints as to how to proceed. THEN ask them if the quests are "too short".

[UurlockYgmeov]

well written and presented.

many of the introductory quests (which are most of the quests you have included) are designed to be short and to teach certain parts of the game.

also - wilderness areas are quest zones - you are doing something to gain xp while running to quests.

plus all the quests listed are low to low-medium level. I do not see a von3 or von4, heck von1 and 2 if you don't know the quest. and the list goes on.

How can the depths chain be considered not close enough? all 4 quest givers are seated at one table and the quest entrance for all 4 (back-to-back-to-back-to-back) is located not more than 30m from the tavern entrance.

Finally - public zones are part of the whole ddo ambiance. some running is long - but most is certainly not 5 minutes. exception to this is sorrowdusk and restless..... and maybe es1 chain....

[PsychoBlonde]

Finally - public zones are part of the whole ddo ambiance. some running is long - but most is certainly not 5 minutes. exception to this is sorrowdusk and restless..... and maybe es1 chain....

Not counting running through wilderness explore areas and a few "hey, did you know there was an area here?!" intro "quests", I think the greatest distance between a quest-giver and the quest is found with Relic of a Sovereign Past, and even that doesn't take anything like 5 minutes to run.

There's a good variety in the game. Everything doesn't have to be the same length. People sometimes don't have an hour to sit down and play a single quest.

[Qhualor]

back in the day, those quests used to take at least double the time now it takes to complete. the challenge back then was higher for a lot of players and grouping was more common. today it may make more sense to combine several quests together, but I think they are fine as is. I prefer short with an occasional long quest in the low levels that have a variety of quest objectives so new players can learn about the game in general. as you level higher and higher the quest lengths get longer.

Baudry chain, Tangleroot and Catacombs are the only level quests I can think of where you have to run back and forth to an NPC to advance. it does get annoying with Catacombs and Tangleroot, but there is story there.

[Faltout]

From the perspective of these players in general [it wasn’t unanimous] they want to spend about 15 minutes to an hour in a zone running three, maybe as many as six quests at a time, zone out and do the few minutes’ worth of admin, bio, and so forth, than zone into the next quest zone.

That sounds like lineage.
Each level has its own zone, in each zone you get a bunch of quests of "kill X monsters", you go into the wild and do them for a couple hours.

If that's what they want, DDO is not for them. That shouldn't be the expectation of a dungeons and dragons player.

A quest also consists of the story. From what you say "they talk to that guy to get the quest, then talk to the other guy to proceed and then to the other guy to complete" it seems that they never even read the dialogue. And of course you can't go in a quest with the wiki in hand and expect to get a true dungeon experience.

I've also tried to get a couple of friends to join DDO. They don't play anymore but the reason is: "The quests are too long and I don't have so much time to spend". And each starter quest took them at least 20 minutes. The more advanced quests at least an hour.

[GoldyGopher]

What should the expectations of a new to DDO Player be?
How should these expectations change during those first few sessions?
Does DDO meet these expectations?

I really don’t know the answer to any of these questions. That’s what I talked about with the some of the players I personally recommended DDO to who did indeed try the game. For these 13 individuals DDO did not meet their expectations even though at least four or five of the players really wanted to make a new game home in DDO.

Over all these players pointed to the fact that so many of the free to play low level quests were too short it was difficult for them to conceive how the later quests would be that much different. Do I think that answers mirrors everyone who tries DDO opinion, not a chance. Ten people will have ten different opinions and not a one of them the same and some might be polar opposites.

There is more to each answer than I am going to list but here is the basics from my discussions when we looked at the quests that were in the middle of these players list:

• Irestone Inlet
• The Depths series
• The Smuggler’s Warehouse
• A Man Named Baudry Cartamon
• Information is Key

I was dismayed by how much dissatisfaction the group had towards Irestone Inlet as it is one of my personal favorites. It has a solid story, decent loot, decent XP, … While only four people disliked it, another five went it should have been so much better and here is how…

The Depths series of quests was one that as a group they liked, but more than half suggested it would be far better if … the most common answer … it was in a single larger quest zone instead of the four smaller quest zones.

How is Smuggler’s Warehouse an different than go kill X mobs that are consistently referred to in these topics?

When talking about quest length A Man Named Baudry Cartamon as an example of their feelings. Starting from the time the party is gathered around Baudry until they collected their end rewards 60% of the time was running the quest and 40% of the time was spent outside of the quest. It is a disheartening feeling for a player in their situation. This is one of those series of quests that most (if not virtually every character) that makes it to Stormreach ends up running.

Information is Key in my eyes is an example of quest whose difficulty decreased immensely as the game has game has matured. Their suggestions were all over the board, as they all liked the quest they just wanted more, more optionals, a better end fight, a better fight in the middle of the game, and did I mention more optionals. They pointed to three or four spots in the quests that seemed designed as hook points for optionals and said, drop X here.

[PsychoBlonde]

back in the day, those quests used to take at least double the time now it takes to complete. the challenge back then was higher for a lot of players and grouping was more common. today it may make more sense to combine several quests together, but I think they are fine as is. I prefer short with an occasional long quest in the low levels that have a variety of quest objectives so new players can learn about the game in general. as you level higher and higher the quest lengths get longer.

Baudry chain, Tangleroot and Catacombs are the only level quests I can think of where you have to run back and forth to an NPC to advance. it does get annoying with Catacombs and Tangleroot, but there is story there.

Not to mention that lower-level quests are geared toward some of the limitations that new players may have--namely, not even having enough plat to buy a full stack of CSW pots. When you have no gear, terrible healing, and don't know what you're doing even something the length of Dirk's Got A Secret can feel like too much.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Although I enjoy long quest; lately my life has taken a turn that limits my playtime.

..and from what I seem, most other players would prefer short quests.


We do have some long ones that should satisfy those who want that.
(ToEE)

I support the Devs continuing to add a variety of quest lengths as they add more content.
Short and long.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Oh...

...for those wanting more immersion, run the chains back to back.
....or even the sagas.

Take time to read the NPC conversations.

[Saekee]

I wonder if these friends of yours would have been happier playing iconics in wilderness areas with quest chains like Wheloon and Storm Horns.

[bsquishwizzy]

You know, the quests that were liked are also on my list of favored quests. I love running those.

However, short quests are advantageous for an MMO where some people have time constraints. If you've got a couple of hours to play on any given day, they last thing you're gonna want to do is to get neck deep in a 3-hour quest.

My thought is that they can have the best of both worlds - have short quests, but provide lots of optionals. In fact, I suggested that not too long ago. Start revising the harbor quests and tacking on more branches and optionals so that the flower-sniffers, max XP, and immersion types can get what they want. But leave the main branch of the run for the XP/min crowd.

Another idea I have is quest chains with checkpoints - sorta like mini public areas between quests where you can stop for the next day, and even leave, or come back to where you left off. So there again if you want a long run, just keep going. But you have limited time, you can stop at a checkpoint, and pick the game up later when time or conditions permit.

[Discpsycho]

I'm glad TOEE was mentioned, but another one it's a shame they never got to try 'cause of the level requirement is Haunted Halls of Eveningstar. Long, tons of optionals for flower-sniffers, worthwhile loot, plenty of challenge and little tricks

[Lonnbeimnech]

The way I see it, if it was pnp table-top, each single ddo quest would be about a session/nights game play.

So for example, clearing out the warehouse district would be a single quest that took several nights of game play to finish, but in ddo they are broken up into several smaller quests so that you aren't required to play for 6 hours straight and if you get interrupted by dinner/bed time/power outage, you don't have to start over from the very beginning.

I actually really like it this way.

[Ralmeth]

Zoning is never fun, and it would be nice if this was made faster, but I like the shorter quests in Korthos and the Harbor. I've always wanted there to be more short quests at higher levels, so as you play you could pick shorter quests or longer ones, depending on your preference. In fact, back when I was newer to DDO I used to feel a bit disappointed because the Harbor was such a great area, with lots of short quests, that when you get to the Market and the various Houses that short quests were a lot more few and far between, and you were forced to run longer quests. I guess, to each his/her own.

As for having to spend time talking to NPCs instead of running through a wilderness, did your friends actually read the dialogue? As we all know, the purpose of the quest givers is for the story, and I'm glad there is a story because that's more interesting IMHO then just a hack and slash quest area with no purpose. I suppose if you're just power gaming, you wouldn't care about that. Certainly I skip the dialogue on many quests because I've read it many times before and already know what they say. Now, I do think it would be more immersive for the NPCs to speak their dialogue, like what is done in the new Amrath quests. In regards to spending 3-5 minutes in between each quest, that would be maddening. When I'm running Korthos or Harbor, I'll run multiple quests back to back just like they are suggesting be done, without stopping in between for maintenance. So if they were spending 3-5 minutes in between each short quest doing who knows what, that was their choice. The only thing that is a pain (as I mentioned initially) is dealing with the loading screens.

[lyrecono]

The baudry chain is rather notorious, causing half the party to lag behind
One of the reasons i usually skip this on tr lives. (that and the low exp)
The depth chain could really use just 1 npc located at only 1 entrance (and have it's other entrances deleted), just like stk. I do them every life but always skip the end reward
Streamlining is the key here.

Chains with a lot of loading screens should be better linked to each other (looking at you Cot6) imho

Tangleroot should be reduced to 2 quests with lots of optionals and mandatory goals. again, imho

ToEE is a mess, yes it's large but it's scaling is of the charts, making it hard to balance a party (since everyone who has toons capable of running it on elite only seems to be willing to run elite at lv)
I have played this twice at lv with my main triple everything completionist and i will never do it again, bad exp/min for it's lv, the mob density is balls tot he walls stupid, the hp and dps output on mobs is out of whack let alone their aoe's. Splitting up is an instant red alert.
I have completed 8 heroic items all by zerging it with capped toons because it was no fun to play at level


Haunted Halls should be introduced as a lowbie quest (5 to 7?) but without the F-upped settings and balance issues that seem to haunt heroics, the last couple of updates, just to reel in the lowbies and newbies.
Placing a door to it from the market place would be nice too.
Come to thingk of it, the clue quest could do with a heroic make over to (to show lowbies what to expect in ddo), of course without the unbalanced mess that seems to accompany a lot of newer heroics lately.
(i swear, i would never willingly set foot in eveningstar if this happened.)

This game has been here for 10 years, many of us had big changes in their lives that reduced playtime, some of those need to maximize the playtime in order to reach certain goals with an except-able time limit.
After a few lives we can't be bothered with the npc dialog, we just wan't to get it done before real life catches up.
Chains like stk are a shining example of how things could be improved.
Bad examples are Cot6 and catacombs


It's one of those quality of life issues like the volume slider in parties that took only 10 years to get done.
Maybe we get to see the streamline pass before the 20th birth day, i'll be holding my fingers crossed (but obviously not holding my breath).

Edit; good opening post, glad to see this, opposed to people who create threads to beg for a save feature in dungeons because harbor quests are too long.

[Cordovan]

We try to have a mix of quest lengths in the game. Some people prefer long quests, others prefer shorter ones.

[Livmo]

We try to have a mix of quest lengths in the game. Some people prefer long quests, others prefer shorter ones.

Sometimes I don't have allot of time to play and I love Grinn and Barret. If I want to go long I will do HH (my fav).

I find that I like all 3 depending on mood and time avail. to play.

TY for the mix. I like all 3, short, medium, and long. One of the reasons I like DDO so much more than other games.

[Ebondevil]

We try to have a mix of quest lengths in the game. Some people prefer long quests, others prefer shorter ones.

I like Short, Medium and Long quests.

I despise Medium and Long quests with cheesy mechanics which mean you can spend ages and then fail at the last minute so you are left feeling like you've wasted an hour or more. (A Small Problem I'm looking at you specifically!)

[Enoach]

I like that quests are of various lengths. Quests of various lengths allow planning a game time that fits.

Quest series like and wish there were more of:

1. Tangleroot where between each quest set you don't have to go far to advance
2. House D Depth quest line where you can continue or exit between
3. Harbor Sewer similar to House D Depths but set of two Quests
4. SDK again similar to House D Depths

Other zones like Quests in Explorer zones that tie together.