Re-Revisiting the Dwarven Defender for New Players (U29)

[unbongwah]

Is this fighter build current with the updates to the game?

Not yet, although it should mostly be a matter of resetting Enhancements to take advantage of the new Kensei bonuses. Although I have been mulling the idea of a S&B Kensei: you lose atk speed and the free stun procs from the capstone by shifting APs from Vanguard into Kensei; but the extra Melee Power, One Cut's crit bonus, and +1 crit range (among other DPS bonuses) might make up for it. The problem with that approach is AP shortage; namely without Dwarf Fortress, is it really still worth being a dwarf for this build? I'm not sure...

[unbongwah]

I've updated the OP with two new builds: one which focuses on DPS, the other which focuses on survivability. Ironically, neither focuses on Vanguard, instead going for either Kensei or Stalwart D., respectively. I'll try to come up with a more "balanced" build later, though that will probably involve ditching dwarf enhancements entirely.

[skorpeon]

I've updated the OP with two new builds: one which focuses on DPS, the other which focuses on survivability. Ironically, neither focuses on Vanguard, instead going for either Kensei or Stalwart D., respectively. I'll try to come up with a more "balanced" build later, though that will probably involve ditching dwarf enhancements entirely.

So had any more thoughts Unbongwah? I follow your threads, I had thoughts of TYWA dwarven axe wielding fighter (TWF or even single HF). Still looking around. I basically am looking for a fighter past life so may even just do a heroic 1-20, although I came here after your post in the Iconic's for new players.

Strangely I am not a new player but somehow I tend to play new player friendly builds. Could just be the casual nature of my play? I initially wanted to play a bard (freezing) but thought I should actually get at least one fighter PL.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

cheers
Tym

[Jasparion]

So Im having a look at the Con based Dwarf S&B as it looks like a lot of fun. Im wondering, if you are already going 18 AP in to Dwarf, whether its worth going 21 and picking up Dwarf Fortress? It says "While wearing Full Plate" but do we know if this actually requires "Full Plate" or is any Heavy Armor enough to trigger the effect?

An armor description of "Full Plate" probably means it is not worth it unless you know what your armor is made of...

If you do end up going 21 in Dwarf, Im assuming you keep 41 in SD, so Vanguard drops to 18. What would you be giving up there?

That said, by going full Con and getting +damage from TYWA, is there an issue with hitting mobs given your Strength is going to be much lower? Would it require an item with +Accuracy (which would be twice as efficient as +Strength)? Or are you hitting mobs on 2+ regardless of Strength because mob AC doesnt really matter much?

Is Power Attack or Precision a better option? Especially in Reaper - which is what this build is all about.

Cheers.

[unbongwah]

Im wondering, if you are already going 18 AP in to Dwarf, whether its worth going 21 and picking up Dwarf Fortress? It says "While wearing Full Plate" but do we know if this actually requires "Full Plate" or is any Heavy Armor enough to trigger the effect?

I've tested it before and you must have regular full plate equipped: half-plate doesn't count, mithral full plate doesn't count.

If you do end up going 21 in Dwarf, Im assuming you keep 41 in SD, so Vanguard drops to 18. What would you be giving up there?

VG cores thru Vicious Shield I (+5% atk speed, +20% shield bash proc chance), Fatal Bulwark, and Follow Up are 16 APs; although if I'm adding right, 41 SD / 24 dwarf / 15 VG is enough to max out Dwarf Fortress + TYWA while still taking 2nd rank of Follow Up.

Really, though, the problem with going heavy into dwarf racial bonuses is not having enough APs for ftr PrEs, which are generally going to add more to survivability or DPS. Particularly if you're thinking of Reaper mode, in which case heal amp from human is probably more valuable.

[Jasparion]

I've tested it before and you must have regular full plate equipped: half-plate doesn't count, mithral full plate doesn't count.

VG cores thru Vicious Shield I (+5% atk speed, +20% shield bash proc chance), Fatal Bulwark, and Follow Up are 16 APs; although if I'm adding right, 41 SD / 24 dwarf / 15 VG is enough to max out Dwarf Fortress + TYWA while still taking 2nd rank of Follow Up.

Really, though, the problem with going heavy into dwarf racial bonuses is not having enough APs for ftr PrEs, which are generally going to add more to survivability or DPS. Particularly if you're thinking of Reaper mode, in which case heal amp from human is probably more valuable.

Well, the goal is for Dwarf rather than Human, and given it will be stacking serious Con, the HP pool should cover the loss of 20 Healing Amp. Just need to ensure the healer types/scrollers in the group boost a little.

If Dwarf Fortress is picky about the type of plate, then I think just going for TYWA makes sense. 3 more AP which can be put in the Fighter enhancements, which as you point out, are very nice.

Cheers !

[Thoden]

Well, the goal is for Dwarf rather than Human, and given it will be stacking serious Con, the HP pool should cover the loss of 20 Healing Amp. Just need to ensure the healer types/scrollers in the group boost a little.

If Dwarf Fortress is picky about the type of plate, then I think just going for TYWA makes sense. 3 more AP which can be put in the Fighter enhancements, which as you point out, are very nice.

Cheers !

I can corroborate what Unbongwah says here about the half plate not working for dwarven fortress (not that he needs my assistance!). Really, though, when in the endgame are you having to settle for half-plate? I think the extra points in dwarf are worth it.

[Jasparion]

I can corroborate what Unbongwah says here about the half plate not working for dwarven fortress (not that he needs my assistance!). Really, though, when in the endgame are you having to settle for half-plate? I think the extra points in dwarf are worth it.

Are all named Heavy armor Full Plate? Or are there some which are Hides or something else which wouldnt trigger Dwarven Fortress?

Is the 7% DPS boost worth whatever you are losing from Vanguard?

Cheers.

[unbongwah]

Are all named Heavy armor Full Plate?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Heavy_armor

I believe everything with 35% ASF is full plate and works with Dwarf Fortress; that includes all dragonplate armors.

Is the 7% DPS boost worth whatever you are losing from Vanguard?

Good question! Lemme know if you figure that out, would you?

[Jasparion]

Another thing which just occurred to me. By going Con rather than Str you are giving up a LOT of DC for stuns?

[unbongwah]

By going Con rather than Str you are giving up a LOT of DC for stuns?

There are up to three stuns on this build: Stunning Blow, Stunning Shield, and (when you get to lvl 29) Dire Charge. The latter two are based on whatever's your highest stat, so they're fine; though note that to-hit with Stunning Shield is always based on STR and at higher difficulties that can make a difference. Stunning Blow DC is also always based on STR, so that's what suffers if you go CON-based w/TYWA. You can choose to drop the feat, but its cooldown is half as long as Stunning Shield (15 vs 30 seconds) and half the point of having multiple stuns on a Vanguard IMO is for the free +9 Melee Power from Follow Up; so it's good to have all three if you can keep DCs high enough.

[Jasparion]

There are up to three stuns on this build: Stunning Blow, Stunning Shield, and (when you get to lvl 29) Dire Charge. The latter two are based on whatever's your highest stat, so they're fine; though note that to-hit with Stunning Shield is always based on STR and at higher difficulties that can make a difference. Stunning Blow DC is also always based on STR, so that's what suffers if you go CON-based w/TYWA. You can choose to drop the feat, but its cooldown is half as long as Stunning Shield (15 vs 30 seconds) and half the point of having multiple stuns on a Vanguard IMO is for the free +9 Melee Power from Follow Up; so it's good to have all three if you can keep DCs high enough.

Its really just starting 6 points higher and then the 7 level ups, so that is 6 or 7 DC difference for the Str based stuns and trips.

I guess the other thing is, just what +hit is needed for mid to high level Reaper? Im not sure the last time I ever missed on anything other than a 1...

[KaladorUK]

I believe there are too many points spent on Legendary Dreadnought.

[Broicious]

Ok, apologies for the totally stupid question but with the Kundarak Fortress (28-pt F2P build) why do you go for both shield and THF. Isn't it better to just focus on one?

Separately for a TWF build is there an end game benefit for being a pure fight compared to being a pure ranger?

[Coffey]

Ok, apologies for the totally stupid question but with the Kundarak Fortress (28-pt F2P build) why do you go for both shield and THF. Isn't it better to just focus on one?

Two Handed Fighting line increases glancing blows processes for Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes only the same as it does for all 2H weapons but does not grant attack power increase.
This only works in concert with 2HF and main hand weapon with or without equipped shield and shield masteries. Shield mastery feats will give full adds to your build though with the glancing blow damage.

Base damage with no feat Glancing Blow 20%
Two Handed Fighting +10%
Improved Two Handed Fighting +10%
Greater Two Handed Fighting +10%
Perfect Two Handed Fighting +10%

--------------------------> Total 60%

Use your favorite search engine and search ddo glancing blow for more information.

Separately for a TWF build is there an end game benefit for being a pure fight compared to being a pure ranger?

Someone who has played both classes could write a good comparative.

Edit: Some fixes and such

[Broicious]

Two Handed Fighting line increases glancing blows processes for Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes only the same as it does for all 2H weapons but does not grant attack power increase.
This only works in concert with 2HF and main hand weapon with or without equipped shield and shield masteries. Shield mastery feats will give full adds to your build though with the glancing blow damage.

Base damage with no feat Glancing Blow 20%
Two Handed Fighting +10%
Improved Two Handed Fighting +10%
Greater Two Handed Fighting +10%
Perfect Two Handed Fighting +10%

--------------------------> Total 60%

Use your favorite search engine and search ddo glancing blow for more information.



Someone who has played both classes could write a good comparative.

Edit: Some fixes and such

Thank you so much Coffey, I'm really keen to understand the mechanics sitting behind these decisions and your answer was so clear. I really appreciate it. So much to learn, loving it, and really appreciate such a good community willing to help and educate. Have a great weekend.

[Coffey]

Youre welcome Broicious anytime

I enjoy helping people and i too appreciate the kind people taking the time to answer my questions.

I find this game an enjoyable puzzle to put together a little at a time.
It can be time consuming to search through the forums but you can find some real gems of information.

Best of luck to you!