Thundertwig 18 Barbarian/2 Rogue

[Bliinky]

I have a bunch of nice quarterstaves sitting around on my account, but I don't need any more Rogue or Monk lives at the moment. Thought this might work as a legitimate reason to wield QSs on a non-rogue/monk build. Idea is to just take advantage of TA 15% attack speed and 25% morale doublestrike while basically playing a barb. Thoughts? Did I forget anything obvious?

Thundertwig
18/2 Barbarian/Rogue
Neutral Good Human


Level Order

1. Rogue . . . . . 6. Barbarian . . .11. Barbarian . . .16. Barbarian
2. Rogue . . . . . 7. Barbarian . . .12. Barbarian . . .17. Barbarian
3. Barbarian. . . .8. Barbarian. . . 13. Barbarian. . . 18. Barbarian
4. Barbarian. . . .9. Barbarian. . . 14. Barbarian. . . 19. Barbarian
5. Barbarian. . . 10. Barbarian. . . 15. Barbarian. . . 20. Barbarian


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 18. . . .+1. . . .4: STR
Dexterity . . . .9. . . .+2. . . .8: STR
Constitution. . 18. . . .+3. . . 12: STR
Intelligence. . .9. . . .+2. . . 16: STR
Wisdom. . . . . .9. . . . . . . .20: STR
Charisma. . . . .9. . . . . . . .24: STR
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: STR

Skills
. . . . . R .R. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B
. . . . . 1 .2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Balance . 4 .1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5
Haggle. . 4 .1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5
Jump. . . 4 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Listen. . 4 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Spot. . . 4 .1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5
Swim. . . 4 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Tumble. . 4 .1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5
UMD . . . 4 .1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .32 .8. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5. 5


Feats

.1. . . . : Power Attack
.1 Human. : Cleave
.3. . . . : Two Handed Fighting
.6. . . . : Great Cleave
.9. . . . : Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
12. . . . : Improved Two Handed Fighting
15. . . . : Greater Two Handed Fighting
18. . . . : Toughness
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Epic Toughness
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting
27 Epic . : Blinding Speed
28 Destiny: Holy Strike
29 Destiny: Elusive Target
30 Epic . : Epic Damage Reduction
30 Legend : Scion of: Limbo


Enhancements (80 AP)

Frenzied Berserker (37 AP)

• Die Hard, Frenzied Toughness, Frenzy, Frenzied Toughness II
  
  1. Extra Rage III, Die Harder III, Athletics III
  2. Angry Arms III, Blood Tribute III
  3. Mad Munitions III, Blood Trail III, Supreme Cleave III
  4. Wade In II
  5. Focus Wide, Focused Wrath II, Accelerated Metabolism

Occult Slayer (31 AP)

• Weapon Bond, Resistance, Elemental Defense, Blank Thoughts, Force Ward
  
  1. Extend Rage III, Ear Smash III, Parrying Bond III, Uncanny Dodger III
  2. Guarding Bond III, Lessons of Travel III
  3. Bond of Retribution, Arcane Encumberance III, Kinetic Bond III

Thief-Acrobat (12 AP)

• Staff Control
  
  1. Acrobat Staff Training, Thief Acrobatics III
  2. Quick Strike III

[Saekee]

usually people take the rogue levels at 1 and maybe around 11 or at cap so as to max out skills

edit: start with a higher INT and invest in search and disable with rogue at level 12ish or so to make it easier to keep up your trapping skills

edit 2: you do not need to spend 12 AP in TA. You really only need the attack speed boost unless you want haste boost (so that would be 8AP)
Other options that are low lying fruit in the rogue trees are Sly Flourish (acrobat); Shiv (just 1 AP needed, assassin) and, if you want to invest in it, Venomed blades and sneak attack damage from assassin tree. I suspect you will not proc much sneak damage as a barb cleaving around but venomed blades scale 200% with melee power.

Personally I would do 8 in TA (sly flourish for 1 AP and Haste Boost) and 4 in Assassin (1 for shiv and 2 for sneak damage)

There is also wand and scroll mastery in mechanic; you will need 8 AP there to max it out.

[Bliinky]

usually people take the rogue levels at 1 and maybe around 11 or at cap so as to max out skills

edit: start with a higher INT and invest in search and disable with rogue at level 12ish or so to make it easier to keep up your trapping skills

I'm not investing in trapping skills (see my listed skill layout). The rogue is only there to facilitate low-tier TA enhancements, as listed. If I push my rogue levels off until later, it means later access to those enhancements, which are really what make the build tick. I'm mostly using this build for a past life, so putting a rogue level at cap would be somewhat wasted, as then I wouldn't get to the enhancements that make it work until far later than I even have use for them. c;

edit 2: you do not need to spend 12 AP in TA. You really only need the attack speed boost unless you want haste boost (so that would be 8AP)

Other options that are low lying fruit in the rogue trees are Sly Flourish (acrobat); Shiv (just 1 AP needed, assassin) and, if you want to invest in it, Venomed blades and sneak attack damage from assassin tree. I suspect you will not proc much sneak damage as a barb cleaving around but venomed blades scale 200% with melee power.

Once again, low-hanging 25% morale bonus to doublestrike 10 out of every 12 seconds (plus a +3W attack on that cooldown). I'm fairly certain that'll add up to more than SA dice on a barb. I'll crunch the numbers against the venomed blades, since the melee power scaling is nice, but there's also the fact that some things are immune to the poison from that enhancement, whereas doublestrike works just as well on everybody. Shiv and sly flourish addressed next...

Personally I would do 8 in TA (sly flourish for 1 AP and Haste Boost) and 4 in Assassin (1 for shiv and 2 for sneak damage)

I really don't see why I should take sly flourish or shiv. They lower my threat generation, arguably not a great thing on any barbarian. Sly flourish has some damage, but I think one attack with a larger critical threat range pales in comparison to near-constant 25% doublestrike. Shiv is just like a worse version of sly flourish. I don't get anything out of it at all unless I invest heavily in bluff AND sneak attack. Even if I were to invest in bluff just for the CC effect of shiv, I plan to run silver flame pots (hence the base nine in a lot of scores) so my CHA score would give me an instant -4.

Oh, and haste boost: it's definitely nice. But with AP stretched thin, I still prefer constant 25% DS to the limited number of haste boosts per rest. Plus, I always forget to use action points.

There is also wand and scroll mastery in mechanic; you will need 8 AP there to max it out.

A nice thought, but the AP are stretched so thin as it is. UMD in this case isn't so much for healing (where the enhancement is unarguably useful), but rather for utility. Weapon usage, raise dead scrolls, shield scrolls, invis scrolls, etc. As such, I just can't see investing 8AP for something so marginally useful, especially since I am also not planning on hitting traps.


TL;DR:

Thanks for the insights. Many of them don't apply to my goals for the build, but I'll do some checking on venomed blades to see if the damage is greater than the 25% doublestrike I'd have to give up. Cheers~

EDIT: I started with the idea that it's not unreasonable at all to expect at least 100 damage on hit from this build. So 25% DS means that every fourth hit, I get an extra 100 damage. In other words, 25 damage per hit, or thereabouts. Venomed Blades gives 1d8 poison damage scaling with 200% melee power, or an average of 4.5*(100+2*melee power/100). To make that work out in favor of venomed blades, we'd need 228 melee power. If you've ever worked out how much melee power a build in general gets, you'll know this is unfeasable.
Melee power in this build comes from three sources only (until epics): THF line (gives 6 melee power), Greater Rage (gives 10 melee power), and Frenzy (gives 5 melee power). Total melee power, 21. It's a bit shy of the 228 we need to make Venomed Blades worth it. TL;DR: Doublestrike is still better.

[adrian69]

I'm not investing in trapping skills (see my listed skill layout). The rogue is only there to facilitate low-tier TA enhancements, as listed. If I push my rogue levels off until later, it means later access to those enhancements, which are really what make the build tick. I'm mostly using this build for a past life, so putting a rogue level at cap would be somewhat wasted, as then I wouldn't get to the enhancements that make it work until far later than I even have use for them. c;



Once again, low-hanging 25% morale bonus to doublestrike 10 out of every 12 seconds (plus a +3W attack on that cooldown). I'm fairly certain that'll add up to more than SA dice on a barb. I'll crunch the numbers against the venomed blades, since the melee power scaling is nice, but there's also the fact that some things are immune to the poison from that enhancement, whereas doublestrike works just as well on everybody. Shiv and sly flourish addressed next...



I really don't see why I should take sly flourish or shiv. They lower my threat generation, arguably not a great thing on any barbarian. Sly flourish has some damage, but I think one attack with a larger critical threat range pales in comparison to near-constant 25% doublestrike. Shiv is just like a worse version of sly flourish. I don't get anything out of it at all unless I invest heavily in bluff AND sneak attack. Even if I were to invest in bluff just for the CC effect of shiv, I plan to run silver flame pots (hence the base nine in a lot of scores) so my CHA score would give me an instant -4.

Oh, and haste boost: it's definitely nice. But with AP stretched thin, I still prefer constant 25% DS to the limited number of haste boosts per rest. Plus, I always forget to use action points.



A nice thought, but the AP are stretched so thin as it is. UMD in this case isn't so much for healing (where the enhancement is unarguably useful), but rather for utility. Weapon usage, raise dead scrolls, shield scrolls, invis scrolls, etc. As such, I just can't see investing 8AP for something so marginally useful, especially since I am also not planning on hitting traps.


TL;DR:

Thanks for the insights. Many of them don't apply to my goals for the build, but I'll do some checking on venomed blades to see if the damage is greater than the 25% doublestrike I'd have to give up. Cheers~

EDIT: I started with the idea that it's not unreasonable at all to expect at least 100 damage on hit from this build. So 25% DS means that every fourth hit, I get an extra 100 damage. In other words, 25 damage per hit, or thereabouts. Venomed Blades gives 1d8 poison damage scaling with 200% melee power, or an average of 4.5*(100+2*melee power/100). To make that work out in favor of venomed blades, we'd need 228 melee power. If you've ever worked out how much melee power a build in general gets, you'll know this is unfeasable.
Melee power in this build comes from three sources only (until epics): THF line (gives 6 melee power), Greater Rage (gives 10 melee power), and Frenzy (gives 5 melee power). Total melee power, 21. It's a bit shy of the 228 we need to make Venomed Blades worth it. TL;DR: Doublestrike is still better.

You're correct. The 25% DS is worth more than the 1d8 poison dmg, considering there will be mobs immune to the poison at some point, but not double strike, which combined with 15% bonus to speed is the pride of a stick build. I've played around with the idea of the exact build and I know it's tediously AP short and has a few options.

I'd take staff control and the 25% DS, Go up ravager for blood str and +2 crit range and the rest in FB. You give up core 5 in FB, but I think the 15% attack speed and 25% double strike almost make up +4 str and +1 crit multiplier. I'd forgo haste boost in Assassin and pick up Melee Power in FB and then pick up Haste Boost in LD in epics if you really want it. I think +30 Melee Power on a barbarian with all the ways it contributes to survivability and increases dmg proc is more suited and will give you lee-way to pick up the crackling attack line in FB which stacks with doublestrikes and even on a 2hander I've had it sometimes proc 4 stacks for +4 weapon damage and 12 more melee power.

Anyway, I'd play with it and see what works best for you.

[unbongwah]

If this is just for an HTR, you may want to consider a deeper MC; you won't be at lvl 20 long enough for lvl 18 enhancements to make a difference. E.g., a ftr splash for a couple more feats would help you front-load Gt Cleave and THF chain sooner.

My hunch is that T5 Ravager still beats T5 FB for this build, but that's an easy enough tweak when the time comes.

[Saekee]

Sorry, I totally overlooked quick strike for some reason...too much TWF assassin stuff in my rogue...

[Bliinky]

You're correct. The 25% DS is worth more than the 1d8 poison dmg, considering there will be mobs immune to the poison at some point, but not double strike, which combined with 15% bonus to speed is the pride of a stick build. I've played around with the idea of the exact build and I know it's tediously AP short and has a few options.

I'd take staff control and the 25% DS, Go up ravager for blood str and +2 crit range and the rest in FB. You give up core 5 in FB, but I think the 15% attack speed and 25% double strike almost make up +4 str and +1 crit multiplier. I'd forgo haste boost in Assassin and pick up Melee Power in FB and then pick up Haste Boost in LD in epics if you really want it. I think +30 Melee Power on a barbarian with all the ways it contributes to survivability and increases dmg proc is more suited and will give you lee-way to pick up the crackling attack line in FB which stacks with doublestrikes and even on a 2hander I've had it sometimes proc 4 stacks for +4 weapon damage and 12 more melee power.

Anyway, I'd play with it and see what works best for you.

Thanks for the insights!

[Bliinky]

If this is just for an HTR, you may want to consider a deeper MC; you won't be at lvl 20 long enough for lvl 18 enhancements to make a difference. E.g., a ftr splash for a couple more feats would help you front-load Gt Cleave and THF chain sooner.

My hunch is that T5 Ravager still beats T5 FB for this build, but that's an easy enough tweak when the time comes.

Fighter levels seem like a good idea. I may be trying to cap one destiny (one of the non-shiradi primals) this life, though, in addition to the heroic grind, so I'll have to give a look at what all I'd be giving up.

Also, I keep hearing that Ravager beats FB. I was wondering why that's the consensus? It seems to me like FB giving +2 crit multiplier on 19-20 on a weapon with base x2 multiplier (most QSs) would be better than expanding crit range? I'm thinking 19-20 x4 = 6 hits more than normal VS 17-20 x2 = only 4 hits. Also I feel like the Ravager healing enhancement would be hard-pressed to keep up with the FB one on a THF build, but I may be wrong; I haven't done much with high-level barbarian stuff.

[unbongwah]

Crit Rage is better than Focused Wrath for proc-on-crit effects; it also stacks with Pulverizer in LD if you use a staff not named "Sireth." But more importantly, Blood Strength procs a lot more often than Accelerated Metabolism does.