Alternate Pre-Reqs for feats that require Combat Expertise

[PsychoBlonde]

There are some feats that require Combat Expertise that almost never get used as a result (because CE is basically the worst choice for combat style feat). I think putting in some alternate pre-reqs might be a good idea. Something like:

Improved Feint
Requires one of:
Combat Expertise
Skill Focus: Bluff
10 levels of Rogue

Improved Trip
Requires one of:
Combat Expertise
Dodge
10 levels of Barbarian

Whirlwind
Requires one of (in addition to Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack)
Combat Expertise
Improved Two-Handed Fighting
Great Cleave

[Selvera]

Sorry to be negative, but I disagree; and here's why:

Combat expertise isn't the reason I didn't take whirlwind attack. The fact that whirlwind attack is bugged is why I didn't take whirlwind attack.
I'm pretty sure there's some epic destiny options that make combat expertise pretty good if you invest in it.
If people aren't taking these feats due to having to take combat expertise... why not just make combat expertise a feat worth taking?

I wouldn't want great-cleave as an option for whirlwind attack's prereq. The feats have always been "take cleave or take whirlwind attack, don't take both because they take so many feats to get both", and I like it this way, if only ww was an option (fix the bug please).

[unbongwah]

Combat expertise isn't the reason I didn't take whirlwind attack. The fact that whirlwind attack is bugged is why I didn't take whirlwind attack.

I'll add that Improved Feint needs to be fixed / improved as well; the slight delay between activating it and causing the bluff proc (and attacking too soon breaks it) makes it a PITA to use.

I'm pretty sure there's some epic destiny options that make combat expertise pretty good if you invest in it.

Just one: Improved Combat Expertise (LD) adds +20 PRR. Which beats a poke in the eye, but most of the time you'll want the extra DPS from Power Atk or Precision instead.

If people aren't taking these feats due to having to take combat expertise... why not just make combat expertise a feat worth taking?

Now that's just crazy talk!

[Enoach]

I don't think that this is the right path.

Instead make these feats worth taking.

For Improved Trip the issue has been that DPS and not tactical fighting has become the way melee players build towards. Part of this is because PRR/MRR and other defenses have become to easy to include while still focusing on DPS.

Whirlwind Attack is the cleave for tactical builds needing 4 feats as its pre-req. Expensive, but Fighter's feat progression make this an option that a more defensive/tactical build can take advantage of since 3 of the 4 are probably part of the feat progression already.

Improved Feint is another defensive measure. One of the issues here is unless you are investing in the Bluff skill and use of Sneak Attack as it only opens up the possibility of Sneak Attack.

Removing CE as the requirement opens up these abilities, but that does not make this the best option to fixing why players don't take these feats.

Make Tactical feats besides stuns useful by making abilities that reduce incoming damage more valuable then they are right now.

[FranOhmsford]

I don't think that this is the right path.

Instead make these feats worth taking.

For Improved Trip the issue has been that DPS and not tactical fighting has become the way melee players build towards. Part of this is because PRR/MRR and other defenses have become to easy to include while still focusing on DPS.

Whirlwind Attack is the cleave for tactical builds needing 4 feats as its pre-req. Expensive, but Fighter's feat progression make this an option that a more defensive/tactical build can take advantage of since 3 of the 4 are probably part of the feat progression already.

Improved Feint is another defensive measure. One of the issues here is unless you are investing in the Bluff skill and use of Sneak Attack as it only opens up the possibility of Sneak Attack.

Removing CE as the requirement opens up these abilities, but that does not make this the best option to fixing why players don't take these feats.

Make Tactical feats besides stuns useful by making abilities that reduce incoming damage more valuable then they are right now.

Honestly I think Sunder and Improved Sunder {Who takes Improved Sunder?} especially need to do extra damage:

Sunder +1{W}
Improved Sunder +3{W}
Improved Sunder may still not be worth taking but at least it becomes an option!

[FranOhmsford]

There are some feats that require Combat Expertise that almost never get used as a result (because CE is basically the worst choice for combat style feat). I think putting in some alternate pre-reqs might be a good idea. Something like:

Improved Feint
Requires one of:
Combat Expertise
Skill Focus: Bluff
10 levels of Rogue

Improved Trip
Requires one of:
Combat Expertise
Dodge
10 levels of Barbarian

Whirlwind
Requires one of (in addition to Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack)
Combat Expertise
Improved Two-Handed Fighting
Great Cleave

Whirlwind Attack is ludicrously expensive in Pre-Reqs and yes the fact that it stops you from carrying on your attack sequence for a good half second afterwards is really really bad {on unarmed not so much but with two weapons it's horrific!}.

Why on Earth would a Barb or THF Fighter/Paladin take Whirlwind Attack over Great/Supreme Cleave? The ITWF and Cleave Pre-Reqs wouldn't help one bit!

I'd make it a choice between CE and Precision personally - It's still ludicrous that it requires FOUR Pre-Reqs but at least players will be able to skip taking a feat {CE} they'll never use!


Improved Trip - Your Pre-Reqs make no sense!
Why 10 levels of BARB?
Why Dodge?

I'd make it 3 levels of Fighter, 6 levels of Monk, 9 levels of Rogue and 12 levels of Bard {For Swashbucklers}.
and lose the CE Requirement entirely. {Pure Barbs or Paladins aren't going to waste one of their few Feats on Imp Trip!}.


Improved Feint - Your suggestion actually sounds good for this one - Rogue Bonus Feats could do with the extra option added.