Scion of the Ethereal Plane

[draven1]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
Permanent Blur
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 3 points of Hide you have
+4 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect

What is the point of this feat?

Weak offense
Scion of Arborea offers clearly better DPS than this feat. Why does non situational feat have better DPS than situational one?
Scion of Arborea even offer crittable DPS and better base+sneak attack DPS. Scion of the Ethereal Plane is useless even for sneak attack based classes.

Almost no additional defense
Other legendary feats offer additional stacking defensive benefits(stacking prr/mrr, dodge, etc), but why does this feat offer weaker and non-stacking defensive benefit only? (even gears have better defense)

Is there anyone who would take this feat? For +4 skill? Have you seen anyone took skill focus feat?

[Saekee]

I wonder what the exact tipping point would need to be for the sneak damage bonus to be worth taking the feat.

Are there Number crunchers who can do this?
It would need to be based on existing melee power and existing sneak attack damage (and hide score) with the difference between melee power boosts on sneak damage and weapon threat range and multiplier.

[Steve_Howe]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
Permanent Blur
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 3 points of Hide you have
+4 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect

What is the point of this feat?

Weak offense
Scion of Arborea offers clearly better DPS than this feat. Why does non situational feat have better DPS than situational one?
Scion of Arborea even offer crittable DPS and better base+sneak attack DPS. Scion of the Ethereal Plane is useless even for sneak attack based classes.

Almost no additional defense
Other legendary feats offer additional stacking defensive benefits(stacking prr/mrr, dodge, etc), but why does this feat offer weaker and non-stacking defensive benefit only? (even gears have better defense)

Is there anyone who would take this feat? For +4 skill? Have you seen anyone took skill focus feat?

My assassin's Hide skill is over 105. That's 35+ more damage with sneak attacks. That alone is worth taking the feat. My Mechanic has an 81 Hide skill which is +27 damage to his sneak attacks which is also very nice.

You are also underestimating the Permanent Invisibility Guard effect.

I would, however, prefer the Blur effect be changed to Lesser Displacement, though.

The feat is good.

[draven1]

My assassin's Hide skill is over 105. That's 35+ more damage with sneak attacks. That alone is worth taking the feat. My Mechanic has an 81 Hide skill which is +27 damage to his sneak attacks which is also very nice.

You are also underestimating the Permanent Invisibility Guard effect.

I would, however, prefer the Blur effect be changed to Lesser Displacement, though.

The feat is good.

If you take Scion of Arborea, you can have better, NON-situational CRITTABLE DPS with situational sneak attack DPS. 20 melee power offer far more DPS than 35+ sneak attacks damage.
Let's assume you have 100 base, 100 sneak attack damage. 20 melee power give you, 20 more base damage(can even be boosted by crit, if you are an assasssin, it's 80 on 15-20 rolls) + 35 sneak attack damage.

Have you seen anyone using permanent invisibility guard effect on highend EE? It's on cloak of night, but, actually nobody use it.
At least on my server, I've never seen any endgame power-gamers using it.
For me, I just avoid attacks manually with tumble, uncanny dodge, displacement then re-activate sneak and try to get out of aggroed mob's line of sight OR hit those mob with Shiv or bluff then kill it, instead of relying on random Invisibility Guard proc. For most cases, it's a quite successful tactic to fade-out into shadow again.

If it is dark discorporation guard, it would be really nice to use & fit for flavor, but, imp. invisibility is too weak.

[Steve_Howe]

Dark Discorporation Guard would be so much cooler.

[Hobgoblin]

i would like permanent displacement, but i know that would be op.

[noinfo]

My assassin's Hide skill is over 105. That's 35+ more damage with sneak attacks. That alone is worth taking the feat. My Mechanic has an 81 Hide skill which is +27 damage to his sneak attacks which is also very nice.

You are also underestimating the Permanent Invisibility Guard effect.

I would, however, prefer the Blur effect be changed to Lesser Displacement, though.

The feat is good.

Lesser displace and instead of the skill bonus, shadow fade of some sort

[dunklezhan]

If you take Scion of Arborea, you can have better, NON-situational CRITTABLE DPS with situational sneak attack DPS.

Well I would argue that in the modern game with fort bypass and so on that sneak attack damage on a rogue should not be considered 'situational' or you're simply doing it wrong. You do make a good point about it not being crittable however. On the other hand, the +sneak per 3 points of hide is amazingly reliable, predictable extra damage. and I personally find that valuable. I also find an invisibility guard and perma-blur useful (not very useful considering the number of mobs with true seeing in the form of champs at those levels), not to mention getting +4 bluff (making things more sneak-attackable), UMD (hjeal meh! Raise them! Save the day as usual, I'm the rooooooogue), hide (more sneak attack damage now), diplo (to get rid of aggro so I can go back to sneak attacking), spot, search and traps, jump and balance all incredibly useful for the cost of one feat.

I'm not saying its better or worse than other feats or that it couldn't be better itself. I'm saying on my rogue, should I ever get her to cap, it would definitely be on the list to think about.

Also, yes, I have been known to take skill focus. Usually UMD on my arti early on to swap out later, but it has been known.

[Grailhawk]

I wonder what the exact tipping point would need to be for the sneak damage bonus to be worth taking the feat.

Are there Number crunchers who can do this?
It would need to be based on existing melee power and existing sneak attack damage (and hide score) with the difference between melee power boosts on sneak damage and weapon threat range and multiplier.

This isn't a flat number you need to know your base damage, melee power (before the +20), base sneak attack damage, and crit profile to figure out when Ethereal is better then Arborea. For a TWF fighter there you don't need that much hide skill to start thinking about it though.

Example
base damage = 100
base Melee power = 150
base sneak attack = 35 avg per hit (10d10)
base crit profile = 16-18/x4 19-20/x6
crit power multiplier = 0.70 + .15(4) + .1(6) = 1.9
melee power multiplier @100% scaling = (100+150)/100 = 2.5
melee power multiplier @150% scaling = (100+1.5(150))/100 = 3.25
Arborea melee power multiplier @100% scaling = 2.7
Arborea melee power multiplier @150% scaling = 3.55

Damage per hit = base*crit power*melee power@100% scaling + base sneak * melee power @150% scaling
Base Damage per hit = 100*1.9*2.5 + 35*3.25 = 588.75 avg damage per hit
Arborea Damage per hit = 100*1.9*2.7 + 35*3.55 = 637.25 damage per hit

Ethereal needs x sneak attack damage to be grater then Arborea
100*1.9*2.5 + (35 + x)3.25 > 637.25
588.75 + 3.25x > 637.25
3.25x > 48.5
x > 48.5/3.25
x > 14.9

So 15 sneak attack damage puts Ethereal and Arborea in the same ball park for this example to get 15 sneak attack you need 45 hide skill.

As your base damage goes up Arborea will start to pull ahead but at the moment the realistic range of base damage and hide skill favor Hide skill IMO>

[Saekee]

i would like permanent displacement, but i know that would be op.

An elven dragonmark is pretty near permanent if it is extended. It means elf, of course, and a feat, and 12 AP

This isn't a flat number you need to know your base damage, melee power (before the +20), base sneak attack damage, and crit profile to figure out when Ethereal is better then Arborea. For a TWF fighter there you don't need that much hide skill to start thinking about it though.

Example
base damage = 100
base Melee power = 150
base sneak attack = 35 avg per hit (10d10)
base crit profile = 16-18/x4 19-20/x6
crit power multiplier = 0.70 + .15(4) + .1(6) = 1.9
melee power multiplier @100% scaling = (100+150)/100 = 2.5
melee power multiplier @150% scaling = (100+1.5(150))/100 = 3.25
Arborea melee power multiplier @100% scaling = 2.7
Arborea melee power multiplier @150% scaling = 3.55

Damage per hit = base*crit power*melee power@100% scaling + base sneak * melee power @150% scaling
Base Damage per hit = 100*1.9*2.5 + 35*3.25 = 588.75 avg damage per hit
Arborea Damage per hit = 100*1.9*2.7 + 35*3.55 = 637.25 damage per hit

Ethereal needs x sneak attack damage to be grater then Arborea
100*1.9*2.5 + (35 + x)3.25 > 637.25
588.75 + 3.25x > 637.25
3.25x > 48.5
x > 48.5/3.25
x > 14.9

So 15 sneak attack damage puts Ethereal and Arborea in the same ball park for this example to get 15 sneak attack you need 45 hide skill.

As your base damage goes up Arborea will start to pull ahead but at the moment the realistic range of base damage and hide skill favor Hide skill IMO>

Thx Grailhawk! I was wondering what that might be for an assassin since the feat seems designed around them and ninjas. Probably better for the latter? Assuming CThru's Hassan Assassin:
112 melee power although 36 is situational (MtF)
133.5 average sneak attack damage
111 Hide
crit profile main hand is 15-18/4; 19-20/5, offhand (Assassin's Kiss) 15-18/5, 19-20/6
Not sure what his base damage per hit is since he does not take KtA but easily 100

[Thrudh]

Have you seen anyone using permanent invisibility guard effect on highend EE? It's on cloak of night, but, actually nobody use it.
At least on my server, I've never seen any endgame power-gamers using it.

Because it takes up a slot. What are miss chances for a mob trying to hit you when you are invisible? Is it 10%? 30%? 50%?

Depending on those numbers, permanent invisibility guard without using gear might be pretty good.

[Hobgoblin]

Because it takes up a slot. What are miss chances for a mob trying to hit you when you are invisible? Is it 10%? 30%? 50%?

Depending on those numbers, permanent invisibility guard without using gear might be pretty good.

i may be wrong, but its not a miss chance, it gets rid of your agro and they look for something else to hit.

at least thats how it used to work

[Grailhawk]

An elven dragonmark is pretty near permanent if it is extended. It means elf, of course, and a feat, and 12 AP

Thx Grailhawk! I was wondering what that might be for an assassin since the feat seems designed around them and ninjas. Probably better for the latter? Assuming CThru's Hassan Assassin:
112 melee power although 36 is situational (MtF)
133.5 average sneak attack damage
111 Hide
crit profile main hand is 15-18/4; 19-20/5, offhand (Assassin's Kiss) 15-18/5, 19-20/6
Not sure what his base damage per hit is since he does not take KtA but easily 100

From what I can see in his build post he has base damage
4.5[1d4] +54 main hand and 5[1d4] +35 off hand (all i see adding to his base are Litany (profane 4), Epic Ethereal Bracers (deadly 10) and stat mod 66/2 -5 = 28, 14 for off hand) so from what I can see his base is lower then 100 (I'm sure he hits for more than that because of melee power)

Main hand damage per hit is
4.5[1d4] + 54 = 65.25
m@100% = 2.12
m@150% = 2.68
c = 1.95 (0.65 + .2*4 + .1*5 = 1.95)

am@100% = 2.32
am@150% = 2.98


base dph = 65.25*1.95*2.12 + 133.5*2.68 = 269.7435 + 357.78 = 627.5235

Arborea dph = 65.25*1.95*2.32 + 133.5*2.98 = 693.021

Ethereal needs x sneak attack to be better then arborea
627.5235 + 2.68x > 693.021
2.68x > 65.4975
x > 24.44

25*3 = 75 hide skill to be comparible for the main hand probably good for the off hand to.

[draven1]

Because it takes up a slot. What are miss chances for a mob trying to hit you when you are invisible? Is it 10%? 30%? 50%?

Depending on those numbers, permanent invisibility guard without using gear might be pretty good.

It's 0%. Invisibility doesn't give you miss chance.

[draven1]

i may be wrong, but its not a miss chance, it gets rid of your agro and they look for something else to hit.

at least thats how it used to work

It DOES NOT get rid of aggro. Aggroed mobs still see you(They have red eye mark when invisibility proc). Also, succeed diplo when someone else nearby DOESN'T get rid of aggro, too

[Saekee]

From what I can see in his build post he has base damage
4.5[1d4] +54 main hand and 5[1d4] +35 off hand (all i see adding to his base are Litany (profane 4), Epic Ethereal Bracers (deadly 10) and stat mod 66/2 -5 = 28, 14 for off hand) so from what I can see his base is lower then 100 (I'm sure he hits for more than that because of melee power)

Main hand damage per hit is
4.5[1d4] + 54 = 65.25
m@100% = 2.12
m@150% = 2.68
c = 1.95 (0.65 + .2*4 + .1*5 = 1.95)

am@100% = 2.32
am@150% = 2.98


base dph = 65.25*1.95*2.12 + 133.5*2.68 = 269.7435 + 357.78 = 627.5235

Arborea dph = 65.25*1.95*2.32 + 133.5*2.98 = 693.021

Ethereal needs x sneak attack to be better then arborea
627.5235 + 2.68x > 693.021
2.68x > 65.4975
x > 24.44

25*3 = 75 hide skill to be comparible for the main hand probably good for the off hand to.

Thx Grailhawk! +1

Well, Draven, that should answer your question

[draven1]

Thx Grailhawk! +1

Well, Draven, that should answer your question

No, it's not.

You CAN'T get sneak attack uptime 100%, but, you CAN get a advantage from melee power ALWAYS. If you want to calculate DPS, you should use sneak attack uptime factor.
I think sneak attack uptime is 50%~70% for average ppl, 80~90% for experts. Nobody can get sneak attack always.

[Tlorrd]

i would like permanent displacement, but i know that would be op.

Fortunately and unfortunately warlocks already get permanent displacement.

[Saekee]

No, it's not.

You CAN'T get sneak attack uptime 100%, but, you CAN get a advantage from melee power ALWAYS. If you want to calculate DPS, you should use sneak attack uptime factor.
I think sneak attack uptime is 50%~70% for average ppl, 80~90% for experts. Nobody can get sneak attack always.

Fair point--just modify the results by 75-90%?
We can add to the consideration that displacement while sneaking aids assassins in remaining stealthed which aids assassinate and MtF.

[Grailhawk]

Fair point--just modify the results by 75-90%?
We can add to the consideration that displacement while sneaking aids assassins in remaining stealthed which aids assassinate and MtF.

So then you need 24.44/.75 = 32.33 SA to match 20 melee power in that example so 33*3 = 99 Hide skill very doable on a dex based toon.

IMO Ethereal is very competitive with Aborea at this point in time.