Please stop forcing iconics to take a class at first level.

[Uska]

Your definition of normal in pnp may be different from others... I've been told to make high level characters in numerous starter campaigns, because it fits the game that the DM wants to run.

PNP can be played many ways.... your definition of 'power gaming' may be another dm's definition of playing heroic, world spanning characters with richly interwoven back stories.

Just cause your DM always made you start at 1 doesn't mean others didn't.

also DDO isn't pnp so leave those misconceptions at the door...

Ummm someone else brought up the pnp point first was just responding. And it's not normal to start above 1 I didn't say you couldn't start at higher levels and yes people do and I dd it say it was wrong but normally you start at the beginning

[FranOhmsford]

Ummm someone else brought up the pnp point first was just responding. And it's not normal to start above 1 I didn't say you couldn't start at higher levels and yes people do and I dd it say it was wrong but normally you start at the beginning

I don't know what your definition of normally is but I'd say less than 25% of PnP Characters over the past 40 years have started actual questing at Lvl 1!

Lvl 3, 4 and 5 have all been common starting levels for Groups.
Many Groups run High Level Campaigns starting at much higher levels.
There's even the likes of Dark Sun where TSR themselves told players to start at Lvl 4!
And
When joining a Group already in progress starting at Lvl 1 is very bad indeed!

Take away the very first time you play the game IF that first time was with a group of 1st timers and the percentage of characters starting at Lvl 1 will be much lower still!

[Royalties]

I don't know what your definition of normally is but I'd say less than 25% of PnP Characters over the past 40 years have started actual questing at Lvl 1!

Lvl 3, 4 and 5 have all been common starting levels for Groups.
Many Groups run High Level Campaigns starting at much higher levels.
There's even the likes of Dark Sun where TSR themselves told players to start at Lvl 4!
And
When joining a Group already in progress starting at Lvl 1 is very bad indeed!

Take away the very first time you play the game IF that first time was with a group of 1st timers and the percentage of characters starting at Lvl 1 will be much lower still!

He is moving the goal posts so he can win this discussion. First it was never! Then only power gamers. Now sometimes, but usually not! Obviously he feels invested in this argument for no reason. I mean it totally makes sense you have a cleric with a bonus to Int (Sun Elf), and a wizard with a bonus to wisdom(Gnome). We should build with those weaknesses because it's ICONIC.

[FranOhmsford]

I mean it totally makes sense you have a cleric with a bonus to Int (Sun Elf), and a wizard with a bonus to wisdom(Gnome). We should build with those weaknesses because it's ICONIC.

Which it's so NOT!

It's the exact opposite of Iconic!

There's absolutely NOTHING ICONIC about Elf Clerics of a Human Goddess!
Cleric is already literally the single worst class to use for an Iconic Elf - ANY Other Class would have made more sense!
And then you add on top that Amaunator isn't even an Elven Deity!

I'll give you that Gnome Illusionist is pretty Iconic but the problem with that is the Devs have made Svirfneblin the Iconic NOT Gnome!


Oh and Shadar-Kai aren't Iconic either! Nobody had ever even heard of them till about 2 years ago!
PDK are just Knights of Cormyr - ONE Nation amongst many in The Forgotten Realms!
Bladeforged are actually the most ICONIC Iconic we have! And that's only because they actually fit into the DDO Eberron Lore while the other Iconics absolutely do not!

[Uska]

I don't know what your definition of normally is but I'd say less than 25% of PnP Characters over the past 40 years have started actual questing at Lvl 1!

Lvl 3, 4 and 5 have all been common starting levels for Groups.
Many Groups run High Level Campaigns starting at much higher levels.
There's even the likes of Dark Sun where TSR themselves told players to start at Lvl 4!
And
When joining a Group already in progress starting at Lvl 1 is very bad indeed!

Take away the very first time you play the game IF that first time was with a group of 1st timers and the percentage of characters starting at Lvl 1 will be much lower still!

Mine has been 95% or better over 40 years including groups with established characters in fact I would say I could count on both my hands the number of times and several of those I left after one or two sessions as their style wasn't mine all but one group I played or ran other games with the one group I wanted nothing to do with after half a session

[Uska]

Which it's so NOT!

It's the exact opposite of Iconic!

There's absolutely NOTHING ICONIC about Elf Clerics of a Human Goddess!

I'll give you that Gnome Illusionist is pretty Iconic but the problem with that is the Devs have made Svirfneblin the Iconic NOT Gnome!


Oh and Shadar-Kai aren't Iconic either! Nobody had ever even heard of them till about 2 years ago!
PDK are just Knights of Cormyr - ONE Nation amongst many in The Forgotten Realms!
Bladeforged are actually the most ICONIC Iconic we have! And that's only because they actually fit into the DDO Eberron Lore while the other Iconics absolutely do not!

Shandar are older than 2 years but an iconic rogue should have been Halfling, the elf whoule be Ranger or wizard, the purple dragon knight is kind of iconic as cormyr is one of the popular nations in what is sadly the most popular settings so not really off there Bladeforged are OK so half the iconics are fine (sort of) the others miss the mark

[FranOhmsford]

Mine has been 95% or better over 40 years including groups with established characters in fact I would say I could count on both my hands the number of times and several of those I left after one or two sessions as their style wasn't mine all but one group I played or ran other games with the one group I wanted nothing to do with after half a session

So knowing that you're personally prejudiced against starting at any other level than 1 AND that you've stated here that you've left Groups that didn't start at Lvl 1....I wonder whether those Groups you ran with started at Lvl 1 when you weren't in the Group?

[FranOhmsford]

Shandar are older than 2 years but an iconic rogue should have been Halfling, the elf whoule be Ranger or wizard, the purple dragon knight is kind of iconic as cormyr is one of the popular nations in what is sadly the most popular settings so not really off there Bladeforged are OK so half the iconics are fine (sort of) the others miss the mark

Shadar-Kai may have been around more than 2 years but certainly were never ICONIC until Turbine said they were!
I'd never even heard of them until they arrived on Lamannia! {There was one in the 3rd D&D Movie at about the same time which helped but still not an Iconic Race and the Goliath was a much much better character!}.

I'm happy to give PDK a pass - Just stating that they're really not that Iconic themselves! Iconic is far more than just "Oh I've heard of them".

Bladeforged Paladins of The Lord of Blades are Iconic to DDO and easily the most Iconic of the 5 "Iconics". Even so they'd only just pass muster if we had actual Iconics in DDO!

Svirfneblin are very different from other Gnomes!

Morninglord is just totally wrong!



Now for REAL Iconic D&D Race/Class Combinations:

Sun Elf {Lose the Morninglord Name} WIZARD or Ftr/Mage
Sylvan Elf Ranger
Halfling Rogue
Mountain Dwarf Battle Cleric {Pure's fine but Ftr/Clr even better, I say Mountain Dwarf because the standard Dwarf is Hill.}
Half-Orc Barbarian
Half Elf Bard {Ranger would be more Iconic still but I give that to Sylvan Elf}
Drow Sorceror {Wizard already being taken by Sun Elf, Cleric/FavSoul of Lolth being disallowed due to alignment issues.}
Tinker Gnome Artificer
Svirfneblin Druid {Earth Cleric would be better but I've given Cleric to Mountain Dwarves}.
Human Fighter {OK PDK fits here}

[Uska]

So knowing that you're personally prejudiced against starting at any other level than 1 AND that you've stated here that you've left Groups that didn't start at Lvl 1....I wonder whether those Groups you ran with started at Lvl 1 when you weren't in the Group?

Yup only times they didn't was one shots and it was other issues with those groups that made me leave and not play dnd with them they were either power gamers or Monty haul so I played board games with them on breaks from rpgs. When I run everyone starts at lvl 1 as well nobody has a problem with it as the ,owner lvl catches up pretty quickly and usually ends up only 1 or 2 lvls lower lvl.


None of that matters here the only thing is if they should change iconics and I say no will I get mad if they do no, I won't evenly actively fight against it just voice my opinion that they shouldn't. I still think the entire 15 levels they start with should be that class or at least 11 of them so they would be truly a iconic paladin, cleric or whatever.

[Iriale]

The problem, uska, is that the iconics are not iconics.

The iconic of sun elf is wizard- in all history of D&D.

Paladins are not good iconics of lord of blades. LG guys for an evil boss? It's possible because this is eberron, but it is not iconic.

Shadar-kai as rogues is right, but hey, the shadar-kai are not the iconic rogues of D&D.

Svirfneblin never have been a wizard (illusionist) iconic; the surfaces gnomes, yes, but not the Svirfneblin.

PDKs are other prestige concept. And if is a prestige, then, hen, the race should not be important: there are other races in the ranks of the PDKs than human.

The problem is that the devs have messed with the concept of the iconics. Are they iconics? Then their choices are horrible and wrong. Are they only prestige trees? Then why restrict the first level of the class?

Devs have done wrong the the iconics, this is the reality. The better that they can do now is forget about the first level fixed, because their iconics are not iconics. They are prestiges, and they are suitable for several classes. This is more lore suitable than the mess that they have created. And players will be happy- something that turbine should want. Happy customers spend more time and money in the game. Angry customers leave the game and drop subscriptions.

Devs: turn the iconics into prestiges. It will be better for all: customers, D&D lore, your business.

He is moving the goal posts so he can win this discussion. First it was never! Then only power gamers. Now sometimes, but usually not! Obviously he feels invested in this argument for no reason. I mean it totally makes sense you have a cleric with a bonus to Int (Sun Elf), and a wizard with a bonus to wisdom(Gnome). We should build with those weaknesses because it's ICONIC.

iconic? what iconics? they are not iconic, turbine have done the things very wrong.

[Uska]

Shadar-Kai may have been around more than 2 years but certainly were never ICONIC until Turbine said they were!
I'd never even heard of them until they arrived on Lamannia! {There was one in the 3rd D&D Movie at about the same time which helped but still not an Iconic Race and the Goliath was a much much better character!}.

I'm happy to give PDK a pass - Just stating that they're really not that Iconic themselves! Iconic is far more than just "Oh I've heard of them".

Bladeforged Paladins of The Lord of Blades are Iconic to DDO and easily the most Iconic of the 5 "Iconics". Even so they'd only just pass muster if we had actual Iconics in DDO!

Svirfneblin are very different from other Gnomes!

Morninglord is just totally wrong!



Now for REAL Iconic D&D Race/Class Combinations:

Sun Elf {Lose the Morninglord Name} WIZARD or Ftr/Mage
Sylvan Elf Ranger
Halfling Rogue
Mountain Dwarf Battle Cleric {Pure's fine but Ftr/Clr even better, I say Mountain Dwarf because the standard Dwarf is Hill.}
Half-Orc Barbarian
Half Elf Bard {Ranger would be more Iconic still but I give that to Sylvan Elf}
Drow Sorceror {Wizard already being taken by Sun Elf, Cleric/FavSoul of Lolth being disallowed due to alignment issues.}
Tinker Gnome Artificer
Svirfneblin Druid {Earth Cleric would be better but I've given Cleric to Mountain Dwarves}.
Human Fighter {OK PDK fits here}

Yeah we agree on morning lord well there was one story or 2 about a sun elf he became a vampire

[FranOhmsford]

Yeah we agree on morning lord well there was one story or 2 about a sun elf cleric of lanthander he became a vampire

I've read that novel!

It was good too BUT it was RAVENLOFT!

[Uska]

I've read that novel!

It was good too BUT it was RAVENLOFT!

Well it started in the realms and he was pulled to Ravenloft the better setting????

[Royalties]

Doesn't even matter about what is iconic in D&D. My original point was that the devs made **** up and now we have to suffer with poor decision, a decision that is not in anyway whatsoever iconic in anyone's mind but the developers at Turbine. If there was another DDO I would leave and go play that one, but the only option we have right now is to yell until we out of breath and then give up because they never listen to the players. In fact the original post had argued that it is nothing but a cash grab and the fact that we have complained since they were released about it shows the apathy of the development team. If I could get even "we're looking into it" from the developers that would be enough, but instead they continue on this half cocked direction of iconics without listening to the people who pay them. That's us, the playerbase, and you should be a bit more ****ed instead of cheering them on.

[FranOhmsford]

Well it started in the realms and he was pulled to Ravenloft the better setting????

It's one novel.

The main character isn't even Iconic in Ravenloft unlike Strahd Von Zarovich, Lord Soth or Mordenheim+Adam NEVER MIND in Forgotten Realms.

It's not a Player Character either but a backstory for a Monster!


D&D Authors have been very hit and miss when it comes to Cleric Characters:

Weis and Hickman
Goldmoon is a Great Cleric yes and the only one on Krynn at one stage BUT she doesn't even come close to the Iconic status of Tanis {H-Elf Fighter}, Raistlin {Human Wizard}, Caramon {Human Fighter}, Tasslehoff {Kender Rogue}, Flint {Dwarf Fighter}, Sturm {Human Paladin} or even Tika {Human Fighter}!

Salvatore
Don't get me started on that FavSoul Prototype known as Cadderley!
Danica was a Clonk {Mainly Monk with only a couple of Cleric Levels} in an era when Monk wasn't even a Player Character Class! {It was a Cleric Kit that had nothing whatsoever to do with Martial Arts and was based on Cloistered Catholic Monks!}.
I don't think Drizz't has ever even met a good Cleric!

Denning {Dark Sun Prism Pentad}
There is a Decent Dwarf Sun Cleric in this but he's a minor character.

Gygax {Gord the Rogue novels}
No Clerics of note other than those of The Scarlet Brotherhood!
OK Curley Greenleaf was a Decent Druid Character but NOT a Cleric!


Erm actually no - D&D authors haven't been hit and miss when it comes to Clerics they've been all Miss!

[Iriale]

My original point was that the devs made **** up and now we have to suffer with poor decision, a decision that is not in anyway whatsoever iconic in anyone's mind but the developers at Turbine. If there was another DDO I would leave and go play that one, but the only option we have right now is to yell until we out of breath and then give up because they never listen to the players. In fact the original post had argued that it is nothing but a cash grab and the fact that we have complained since they were released about it shows the apathy of the development team. If I could get even "we're looking into it" from the developers that would be enough, but instead they continue on this half cocked direction of iconics without listening to the people who pay them. That's us, the playerbase, and you should be a bit more ****ed instead of cheering them on.

I agree.

[Enoach]

Turbine did make the decisions on Iconics. Some I agree with, some I scratch my head and some could go either way...

For me what they did wrong was not making the Racial Trees competitive with the class trees.

Shadar-kai - As a Rogue. Assassin is really its strong point based on its racial tree. I think it is a good choice as a starting class

Purple Dragon Knight - Fighter. Here I see it as them trying to differentiate the 'Humans' between realms. Fighter makes sense until you see the charisma based enhancements. Its ok, but I think they could have gone with a different way to make this Iconic Fighter

Bladeforged - Paladin. I actually think of all of the Iconics this is the one that is SPOT on.

Sun Elf (Morninglord) - Cleric. I actually have a pure cleric and wizard for Sun Elf. The pure cleric for things in the Racial Tree - Even enjoyed being a Heavy mace user returning to my PnP days of Basic and Advanced DnD when Clerics could only use blunt weapons. I'm back to Longswords but that is because of getting a Fellblade from DoJ. The Wizard for the intelligence boosts.

Deep Gnome - Wizard/Illusionist - Another I think is spot on, but with the lack of Illusion spells I don't see this as any more than flavor, but will be a way to have the intelligence enhancements.

Of all of these I think the Sun Elf is the furthest off from the class, but by far the Bladeforged is the most restrictive due to having to be Lawful Good where all the others can be any alignment.

Should we have to start with a particular Class. I think that is part of what makes them Iconic. I do agree that Turbine should reconsider some of the Iconics abilities and Racial Trees to make them more a consideration then just using them as a base for a build that could be done with non-iconic races.

[Spekdah_NZ]

We are talking about a product that starts at 15 every time. It's like its eaten an Otto's box every life without the cost. But it comes with a cravet of a starting class.

If you took the starting class away then the floodgates open to why any class cannot start at 15 and so forth.

I'd just accept them for what they are. Either use an iconic or choose a normal class and eat an Otto's.

[Royalties]

We are talking about a product that starts at 15 every time. It's like its eaten an Otto's box every life without the cost. But it comes with a cravet of a starting class.

If you took the starting class away then the floodgates open to why any class cannot start at 15 and so forth.

I'd just accept them for what they are. Either use an iconic or choose a normal class and eat an Otto's.

While think that is a false equivalency I did say earlier that I will be willing to level from 1.

[Xionanx]

Lore discussions aside...

I 100% agree with the OP. It would be super awesome if players could choose their level 1 class for iconics.

Its not about "lore" or "history" or anything else.. its all about PLAYER HAPPINESS.