[URGENT] Expiration on Sigil of Guild Recruitment please

[TheWalruss]

Hey devs

Sigils of Guild Recruitment currently do not have a date of expiration.
This means you can, as an Officer, send a Sigil to any of your alts,
friends, whomever you might want, and then join that guild after years...

Please change this. I'd say a Sigil should expire after a short period of
time. Ideally, the one who sends it can decide if it should last 24hrs or
14 days, which is maximum.

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UPDATE

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It seems like it's really hard for people to understand why this is an
issue, so here's an update.

I like to play with people who are really good at the game. Sometimes
this involves playing with people who aren't necessarily good at life.
Let's just say sucking at life is a passion of mine. I don't judge people
because of it as long as they're good at DDO and decent people to
play with. Obviously that kind of people sometimes have social issues.
Maybe they're mine, maybe they're theirs, it doesn't matter. What
matters is that I have a guild where I like to play with anyone who's
got something game-related to teach me or show me, and recently,
this has come to the unfortunate situation that some of the people
who were in my guild did some really bad things. I'm cool with that.

Now, you may ask what does this have to do with Officers? And it's
quite simple. When you hang out with bads, the easiest way to prevent
them from kicking each other is to just have everyone in your guild
be an Officer. If you think this is crazy, I can tell you that I know
several guilds who actually do that.

That is why I think Sigils should expire. Just to rule that one troll
option out.

Perhaps all those people who think it's such a terrible idea are people
who are already relying on this option to hopefully get some free
guilds or items in the future?

[FranOhmsford]

Why?

Why are you sending out sigils of Guild Recruitment to people you don't want in your Guild in the first place?

[TheWalruss]

I'm not. But your Officers could.

[FranOhmsford]

I'm not. But your Officers could.

Maybe pick better officers?

[TheWalruss]

My Officers are amazing.

[C-Dog]

...This means you can, as an officer, send a Sigil to any of your alts,
friends, whomever you might want, and then join that guild after years...

Well, unopened mail gets returned after 14 days, so there's that.

Otherwise, hope 1) your officers send them out with some discretion, and 2) the prospectives/you don't change much "after years", and you'll still be happy to have them. If not, just punt them (hopefully before your shared chests are empty).

[TheWalruss]

...before your shared chests are empty.

And there it is. One day, everything we had in all other chests
than Officers' chests was suddenly gone and we had a recent
departure. That's what got me thinking.

How interesting you thought of the same thing. Maybe it's not
that uncommon after all?

[skorpeon]

I remember when I was an officer on Sarlona, I recruited someone (was a vet lvl 7). He proceeded straight to the guild chest (yes I followed him). I got there before him and took out the top items. So yes I think people do actually raid other guild chests, so I am not surprised by the fact the my current guild does not even have guild chests, not even officer ones.

Shame but I guess for some that is the game they play.

Yeah, and so the rouge then leaves the guild and joins another.

[Daine]

FWIW: Once I put something in my guilds chest, its not mine anymore, it has no inherent value to me, I gave it away. If someone takes my ex-goods out of a chest to sell, well done, a guildie got some use from it! If they take everything out of the chest even better, it means it all my stuff was useful to someone!

Once I give a gift, do what ever you want with it, because it's yours, not mine! It was a gift and didn't come with a side of judgement or a rulebook.

De-stress about your guild chests, if they empty, great! Fill them up again! That would be a sign of a dynamic and generous guild. It seems a little overkill to me to ask for dev time to fix a rare condition that wont stop anyone new or old to a guild helping themselves to a chest that is there for people to help themselves to. The fear of taking 'too much' when they should be taking everything they can possibly use is what keeps guild chests full and newbs ungeared and poor.

[TheWalruss]

...my guilds chest...

They're just a small part of the problem though.

The main problem is that I don't like the idea of
an endless amount of people being able to possess
Sigils without your knowing.

[cdbd3rd]

Having read both the original issue and the update - I still think the old adage about selecting officers with care applies here. Just as careless recruiting will negatively impact guild quality, so will careless promotions. Sorry if that stings a bit, but "make everyone an officer" is careless.

However. I see no reason that those guild recruitment sigils should NOT have an expiration. Worrying about variable times would be a bit too much, imo. So I'll /sign this idea as a matter of principle.

The email a sigil is sent by has it's own time limit built in. That's sufficient time for a recruit to receive, remove, and activate the sigil. A 24-hour expiration of the token after removal would be appropriate.

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Alternatively, since they changed how guild renown tokens "auto-apply" on possession, that would be a viable option as well. Have the sigil automatically activate when removed from the email. This then immediately gives the pop-up Accept/Decline box and behaves as a currently activated sigil. [Currently, an activated sigil which is declined disappears.]

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edit:

When you hang out with bads, the easiest way to prevent
them from kicking each other is to just have everyone in your guild
be an Officer.

I have wrestled with that statement, and was tempted to ignore it.

First off, if you're hanging with "the bads", then you kind of accept whatever shenanigans &/or bad rep they bring to your guild. Also, it would avoid the entire issue if everyone were kept at Member level. No recruiting, no booting, nada.
That just seems like the most sensible solution to your current issues to me.

[Dandonk]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

[FranOhmsford]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

UPDATE

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems like it's really hard for people to understand why this is an
issue, so here's an update.

I like to play with people who are really good at the game. Sometimes
this involves playing with people who aren't necessarily good at life.
Let's just say sucking at life is a passion of mine. I don't judge people
because of it as long as they're good at DDO and decent people to
play with. Obviously that kind of people sometimes have social issues.
Maybe they're mine, maybe they're theirs, it doesn't matter. What
matters is that I have a guild where I like to play with anyone who's
got something game-related to teach me or show me, and recently,
this has come to the unfortunate situation that some of the people
who were in my guild did some really bad things. I'm cool with that.

Now, you may ask what does this have to do with Officers? And it's
quite simple. When you hang out with bads, the easiest way to prevent
them from kicking each other is to just have everyone in your guild
be an Officer. If you think this is crazy, I can tell you that I know
several guilds who actually do that.

That is why I think Sigils should expire. Just to rule that one troll
option out.

Perhaps all those people who think it's such a terrible idea are people
who are already relying on this option to hopefully get some free
guilds or items in the future?

I know who you invited to your Guild and you only have yourself to blame if you made that person an officer {Heck it wasn't even an unknown alt but his main}!

BUT: I accept the point about not wanting Sigils to remain forever - I can see people sending themselves a Sigil just in case they get booted so having thought about it I will /Sign this suggestion.

[Daine]

It seems like it's really hard for people to understand why this is an issue, so here's an update.

STOP inviting people via sigil. You can invite people in person via a text command in your chat window or by using the social panel. Sounds like problem solved to me.

When you hang out with bads, the easiest way to prevent them from kicking each other is to just have everyone in your guild be an Officer.

No it is not. The easiest way to prevent them from kicking each other is to just have everyone in your guild NOT an officer.


I understand why it is an issue for you, but are asking for dev time to fix something that you can fix yourself within the existing game/guild mechanisms.


Perhaps this might be something you should asking for, where you can then assign officer powers to your ranks, starting with a 'new recruit' rank where they don't have access to any guild chests:

• createrank <name> - Creates a new guild rank.
  
• removerank <name> - Removes a guild rank.
• changeranklevel <name> <level> - Changes the level of a rank; where this rank falls in the promotion/demotion hierarchy. (This command is currently disabled due to bugs)
• changerankname <oldname> <newname> - Changes the name of a rank. (This command is currently disabled due to bugs)
• ranks - Displays all the guilds ranks in order, highest to lowest.

...A free cookie to whomever works out where I got this from...

[PsychoBlonde]

I remember when I was an officer on Sarlona, I recruited someone (was a vet lvl 7). He proceeded straight to the guild chest (yes I followed him). I got there before him and took out the top items. So yes I think people do actually raid other guild chests, so I am not surprised by the fact the my current guild does not even have guild chests, not even officer ones.

Shame but I guess for some that is the game they play.

Yeah, and so the rouge then leaves the guild and joins another.

This is why our guild chest is full of hair dye. That, and I think our guild leader just likes hair dye.

[Enoach]

This is an interesting situation, one that I honestly never thought about. Probably because the guilds I've been a member of don't just promote everyone to officer, we are selective based on actual leadership skills.

While you cannot avoid what is already out in the world what you can do right now is:

1. Demote all your officers - They can no longer send sigils

2. Rethink what is more important to you. Surrounding yourself with players that don't give a rats behind about the guild because in your mind they are the best players. Or surrounding yourself with people that care about the guild presence and growth that are mature in how they interact with you and are better players.

Now I use the sigil system myself when guild members have new characters they want to bring into the guild. I do this because they can then use that sigil when they are ready to join. Gives them the ability to do it on their own time and I can usually pass by a mail box between quests. But while I think this is a "made your bed, now lie in it" situation I will agree that the sigil should have the following restrictions.

1. Sigils should be exclusive and not bankable. This will mean the 14 day limit on mail will stand as well as prevent any hoarding of sigils
2. The Sigil should have a time limit that starts based on them removing it from the mail.

[Enoach]

This is why our guild chest is full of hair dye. That, and I think our guild leader just likes hair dye.

We have a guildee's daughter that would have a field day with your guild chest. She just loves hair dye. In fact I send her everyone I pull now just to keep her stocked

[Daine]

Now I use the sigil system myself when guild members have new characters they want to bring into the guild. I do this because they can then use that sigil when they are ready to join. Gives them the ability to do it on their own time and I can usually pass by a mail box between quests. But while I think this is a "made your bed, now lie in it" situation I will agree that the sigil should have the following restrictions.

1. Sigils should be exclusive and not bankable. This will mean the 14 day limit on mail will stand as well as prevent any hoarding of sigils
2. The Sigil should have a time limit that starts based on them removing it from the mail.

It's still trying to cure the symptoms and not the cause. On the surface it seems your concern is if a guild member goes bad and is removed from the guild he can have an alt join the guild at a much later date when you don't want it. But really it's about what that person does once they rejoin your guild. Will they

1. 'raid' your guild chests?
2. bring about some insurrection/unrest by using guild chat to say they were unfairly removed (even if thats not true)?
3. bring your guild into disrepute by being a jerk to others on the server?

What can you do to stop this?

1. STOP SENDING SIGILS if this worries you.

2. Nothing. Nothing at all if the person is determined to be an jerk they will be. If they are devious enough to save a sigil for this event they are devious enough to roll a new character, befriend your guildies and get invited and do any of the above.

Is this seriously what people want the limited resources of Turbine working on? If they take the time to fix this, there's something else they wont be fixing. Surely there's something on your [URGENT] list that needs doing that can't be overcome by yourselves?


Once again guild ranks would help mitigate the damage a new guild member could do, putting a timer on sigils wont change anything about the damage a determined ex-guildie can do.

[C-Dog]

... putting a timer on sigils wont change anything about the damage a determined ex-guildie can do.

Yeah, it would - it would stop someone who receives an invite from a new guild from hanging on to it, then crashing in ~after~ it's leveled up and has chests (a Level 19 feature to start). If I started a Guild, I'd think I'd know everyone by then - but if invites have no expiration, that throws a real crimp in things that happened in a diff phase of the Guild.

I wouldn't ~think~ this would take all that much "developer time" - it's pretty much a cut-and-paste of existing code afaik (but could easily be wrong).

That said...

How interesting you thought of the same thing. Maybe it's not
that uncommon after all?

Yeah... no.

It's not "uncommon", it's just all too predictable. Being hit by a car isn't common - but if you constantly play in traffic, and then start a post with "So, the other day I was playing in traffic..." Not hard to guess where this story was going.

Be more careful about who you invite, and/or don't put "valuables" in the middle of your patio when you're having a party. Not even an "invite only" one, not unless you know 100% of the attendees, or can view the aforementioned "valuables" as party consumables that simply are not expected to last long. :/

(Which gets us back to the expiration thing - +1, btw.)

[PsychoBlonde]

We have a guildee's daughter that would have a field day with your guild chest. She just loves hair dye. In fact I send her everyone I pull now just to keep her stocked

Hee! I TR often enough that for the longest time I made it a rule that I'd just use them whenever I pulled them and proceed to entertain everyone (well, ME mostly) by talking about my "hawt new look".