Pure Acrobat at End Game Possible?

[CThruTheEgo]

If it didn't stack I would mention that. It stacks with everything, it's wind stance that does not stack with insightful DS item.

I think you're overstating the amount of offense you get from 2 more levels of rogue. Yes it is noticeable, but it's not make or break. 18/2 build still does plenty of damage, it's not like I'm giving up the 20% DS core. With the alacrity and the melee power I'd ballpark it at 6% less damage, the loss of 2x enemies attacked at once is the only significant loss. Execute is pretty hard to fit in as well, but can be taken if you give up KTA.

It's also about the AP cost and what you don't get by spending those points in the monk trees. You're basically spending 11 AP in shintao for 10 heal amp and 15 PRR. That's a high cost for very little return imo. Taking my previous breakdown of 83 PRR on a light armored acrobat, the robe wearing monk splash would be down 20 from not wearing armor, but gains 25 from earth stance with the iron skin enhancement. So it's a net gain of 5 PRR, which is a difference of 1.45% damage reduction. I just don't find that worth what is given up. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if a pure acrobat could reach the dodge cap, making the benefit of the ninja dodge enhancement unnecessary, which is good because that just means less AP spent, but also less advantage taken from monk.

[QuantumFX]

I think you're overstating the amount of offense you get from 2 more levels of rogue. Yes it is noticeable, but it's not make or break. 18/2 build still does plenty of damage, it's not like I'm giving up the 20% DS core. With the alacrity and the melee power I'd ballpark it at 6% less damage, the loss of 2x enemies attacked at once is the only significant loss. Execute is pretty hard to fit in as well, but can be taken if you give up KTA.

2 Monk splash on an Acrobat is like having 2 Artificer splash on a mechanic. Each has it’s advantages, but doesn’t particularly mean that it’s “Always! Everytime!” better.

[unbongwah]

Based on Andoris's build, I'd say the real advantage of monk 2 splash is GM Wind stance for +10% doublestrike and the extra +4% from Scion of Astral Plane; another +3% if you twist Running w/Wind. The +4 DCs (for Dire Charge & Sweeping Strikes) and Dodge bonuses are the icing on the cake.

If I'm adding right, your Dodge cap would be at least base 25 + 11 Acro + 3 Ninja + 2 shipbuff + 4 SotAP = 45 cap. Not sure how you push it that high, frankly, but combined with Displacement that's a 77.5% miss chance, I think.

[Qezuzu]

It's also about the AP cost and what you don't get by spending those points in the monk trees. You're basically spending 11 AP in shintao for 10 heal amp and 15 PRR. That's a high cost for very little return imo. Taking my previous breakdown of 83 PRR on a light armored acrobat, the robe wearing monk splash would be down 20 from not wearing armor, but gains 25 from earth stance with the iron skin enhancement. So it's a net gain of 5 PRR, which is a difference of 1.45% damage reduction. I just don't find that worth what is given up.

My build has 191 PRR. I have the raid armor, the boots, Improved Combat Expertise, I've pretty much exhausted all sources of PRR except for four more divine PL's.

Without Earth Stance I would have 171 PRR. This reduced damage to 36.9%.
With Earth Stance, using only 2 tiers of Shintao monk stance, it is reduced to 34.3%.

It looks like a 2.6% reduction in damage, but it's not. With earth stance I take 6.8% less damage than without ( .026/.369 ). That can easily be difference between 1-shot, or 2-shot, or 3-shot. This is without an additional 5 PRR, which boosts this to 9.15% less damage.

Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if a pure acrobat could reach the dodge cap, making the benefit of the ninja dodge enhancement unnecessary, which is good because that just means less AP spent, but also less advantage taken from monk.

It's not about dodge, it's about dodge cap. Max dodge cap for pure Acrobat is 45% with 2x LGS items.

Ninja Spy gives +3 dodge cap, boosting this to 48% (AP is way too tight on Halfling for the 51%. You can say "well then why don't you go Halfling Pure Rogue" but then you miss out on 20% damage boost, human is way too strong). Meaning you're close to 100% dodge, for one minute, while chaining Improved Uncanny Dodge/Meld Into Darkness/Hood of Unrest. I know you're probably fine with the 95% and Displacement but honestly, it's not about more defenses, it's about achieving true god mode. But really that ~3% miss chance is freaking annoying against Sor'jek and Shroud pt2 bosses, I'm more comfortable with ~1% miss chance.

It should also be noted that Earth Stance gives a 20% boost to AC. It is actually possible to get meaningful AC, even in LE, as much as 50% miss chance. This 20% bonus is substantial. You also get WIS to AC, which can easily be another 13 after stance.

The damage reduction, increase in dodge, and increase in AC (ballpark it at +40 for someone really investing in it), it's substantial. As stated before, there's no clear winner between pure or monk splash, but both have their benefits.

Based on Andoris's build, I'd say the real advantage of monk 2 splash is GM Wind stance for +10% doublestrike and the extra +4% from Scion of Astral Plane; another +3% if you twist Running w/Wind. The +4 DCs (for Dire Charge & Sweeping Strikes) and Dodge bonuses are the icing on the cake.

If I'm adding right, your Dodge cap would be at least base 25 + 11 Acro + 3 Ninja + 2 shipbuff + 4 SotAP = 45 cap. Not sure how you push it that high, frankly, but combined with Displacement that's a 77.5% miss chance, I think.

Currently, Air Stance is garbage. It only gives a net of 3% since it doesn't stack with Legendary Pendant of the Warrior's Focus. If this is changed, which it should be because that's freaking stupid, it will make monk splash even more competitive.

[QuantumFX]

If I'm adding right, your Dodge cap would be at least base 25 + 11 Acro + 3 Ninja + 2 shipbuff + 4 SotAP = 45 cap. Not sure how you push it that high, frankly, but combined with Displacement that's a 77.5% miss chance, I think.

You can get +3% more max dodge from Agility in the Ninja Spy tree.

As for how to fill it out:
+04 - 2 Levels of Monk
+05 - Uncanny Dodge 18 Levels of Rogue
+03 - Shadow Dodge
+11 - Epic Belt of Thoughtful Remembrance
+05 - Spinning Staff Wall
+04 - Scion of the Astral Plane
--------------------------------------------------
+32

You can get another +10 from full stacks of Nimbleness.
You also have options from feats and twists.

For a leather armored acrobat, the struggle is with max dex bonus. I had to twist Lithe to make it work.
(This is a cut and past from another thread)

Dodge:
Max Dex:
22 Base (Legendary Tempest Spine/Hound armor)
11 Thief Acrobat enhancements (3 cores and Staff Wall)
06 Lithe
02 Mobility
02 Fencing Master
----------------------
43

Max Dodge
25 Base
11 Thief Acrobat
04 Scion
02 Fencing Master
------------------------
42

Dodge
03 Dodge Feat
02 Mobility
03 Shadarkai past lives
11 Epic Thoughtful Remembrance
06 Improved Uncanny Dodge
05 Spinning Staff Wall
03 Shadow Dodge
04 Scion
------------------------
37
Plus up to 10 more with Nimbleness.

[adrian69]

I'm not aware of any gear which stacks with Dragon's Edge; has that changed recently? Or do you mean you'll twist Grim Precision?

Yeah, I meant gear, but even it doesn't stack, 70%ish (subtracting 20% for gear) is still a lot on a build like this I think.

If it didn't stack I would mention that. It stacks with everything, it's wind stance that does not stack with insightful DS item.

I think you're overstating the amount of offense you get from 2 more levels of rogue. Yes it is noticeable, but it's not make or break. 18/2 build still does plenty of damage, it's not like I'm giving up the 20% DS core. With the alacrity and the melee power I'd ballpark it at 6% less damage, the loss of 2x enemies attacked at once is the only significant loss. Execute is pretty hard to fit in as well, but can be taken if you give up KTA.

I'm still not sure the capstone is an overstatement for offered damaged, but with the investment I do believe 2 monk offers some extra cushioning, but I am not sure it's worth the amount of AP for the extra 15 PRR. That's also damage or survivability took away from other places. I'm not great with the number aspect of this, I can do it, but takes me probably longer than most, but I'd like to see the numbers the capstone adds.

I love execute. It may be worth it in Legendary Content now, but until them everything is pretty much dead in a few hits anyway.

You can get +3% more max dodge from Agility in the Ninja Spy tree.

As for how to fill it out:
+04 - 2 Levels of Monk
+05 - Uncanny Dodge 18 Levels of Rogue
+03 - Shadow Dodge
+11 - Epic Belt of Thoughtful Remembrance
+05 - Spinning Staff Wall
+04 - Scion of the Astral Plane
--------------------------------------------------
+32

You can get another +10 from full stacks of Nimbleness.
You also have options from feats and twists.

For a leather armored acrobat, the struggle is with max dex bonus. I had to twist Lithe to make it work.
(This is a cut and past from another thread)

Dodge:
Max Dex:
22 Base (Legendary Tempest Spine/Hound armor)
11 Thief Acrobat enhancements (3 cores and Staff Wall)
06 Lithe
02 Mobility
02 Fencing Master
----------------------
43

Max Dodge
25 Base
11 Thief Acrobat
04 Scion
02 Fencing Master
------------------------
42

Dodge
03 Dodge Feat
02 Mobility
03 Shadarkai past lives
11 Epic Thoughtful Remembrance
06 Improved Uncanny Dodge
05 Spinning Staff Wall
03 Shadow Dodge
04 Scion
------------------------
37
Plus up to 10 more with Nimbleness.

Thanks for the visual.