Pure Acrobat at End Game Possible?

[adrian69]

A lot of us in forums feel that 18/2x (monk or ftr) are better for playing a rogue through epics as a TA. Anyone have ideas about making a survivable pure TA for at least L hard play?

[CThruTheEgo]

A lot of us in forums feel that 18/2x (monk or ftr) are better for playing a rogue through epics as a TA. Anyone have ideas about making a survivable pure TA for at least L hard play?

The capstone is pretty nice and I'm not sure the extra feats from either monk or fighter are needed. unbongwah's Halfling Acrobat seems to have all the expected feats covered, and it's not updated for level 30 so you can add another feat to it. Acrobat is still an AP heavy tree and killer in assassin is another 23 AP minimum, so I wouldn't expect to have many AP left to spend in any of the monk or fighter trees, if there's even anything in them for an acrobat. So overall I don't see any advantage to 2 monk or fighter.

[Hobgoblin]

The capstone is pretty nice and I'm not sure the extra feats from either monk or fighter are needed. unbongwah's Halfling Acrobat seems to have all the expected feats covered, and it's not updated for level 30 so you can add another feat to it. Acrobat is still an AP heavy tree and killer in assassin is another 23 AP minimum, so I wouldn't expect to have many AP left to spend in any of the monk or fighter trees, if there's even anything in them for an acrobat. So overall I don't see any advantage to 2 monk or fighter.

what about the monk stances?

and 2 feats would help, but i agree they arnt worth the capstone

and not working out the ap, but henshin does have the bonus to attack/damage in it.

[Grailhawk]

The capstone is pretty nice and I'm not sure the extra feats from either monk or fighter are needed. unbongwah's Halfling Acrobat seems to have all the expected feats covered, and it's not updated for level 30 so you can add another feat to it. Acrobat is still an AP heavy tree and killer in assassin is another 23 AP minimum, so I wouldn't expect to have many AP left to spend in any of the monk or fighter trees, if there's even anything in them for an acrobat. So overall I don't see any advantage to 2 monk or fighter.

The issue is pure Rogue has very low PRR, you really need the 36 PRR from past lives just to hit 100 (with reasonable sacrifices) monks splash offers a noticeable defectives boost. I agree a maxed out acrobat will be better pure but if it's just a life or a B toon monk does have something to offer.

[adrian69]

The issue is pure Rogue has very low PRR, you really need the 36 PRR from past lives just to hit 100 (with reasonable sacrifices) monks splash offers a noticeable defectives boost. I agree a maxed out acrobat will be better pure but if it's just a life or a B toon monk does have something to offer.

I have all the PLs and EPLS, and this has been my concern.

The TA capstone is very nice, but a soulstone has little fun.

I didn't realize Ubongwah had a pure TA build.

[adrian69]

Acrobat is still an AP heavy tree and killer in assassin is another 23 AP minimum.

I agree and believe it can be done without monk or ftr or even paladin, though 8 to saves is always nice up there.

The last time I tried a TA I learned that quick strike and killer do not stack. Tier 3 Quick Strike takes precedence and nullifies any stack of killer that is up. I like either one of them though, quick strike is 5% more DS, but for 12 seconds with a 3 second downtime. Killer can be kept up to 20% if you keep on killing but makes it about as expensive as quick strike being tier 4 in Assassin.

[adrian69]

what about the monk stances?

and 2 feats would help, but i agree they arnt worth the capstone

and not working out the ap, but henshin does have the bonus to attack/damage in it.

Henshin bonuses do stack with TA, exceptions to T5 staff mastery, but it's only like +2 to hit/+3 to damage with both cores. I don't feel 7 AP is worth that. I'm not sure there's anything else there.

[Qezuzu]

So overall I don't see any advantage to 2 monk or fighter.

Majors things lost from not being pure:
Attacking 2x enemies at once for full damage and knockdown on vorpal
A small amount of (single-target) DPS

Major things gained from Monk splash:
25 PRR
3 dodge
Healing Amp
More doublestrike (Air Stance if you really wish, but Scion of Astral Plane gives an additional +4 DS when centered which isn't possible with light armor. You can be centered on pure but then you have even less PRR).

It's a defensive vs. offensive thing. It's like Artificer splash on Mechanic, there's good points for both builds.

As for OP's question: pure is absolutely fine. Dodge is really great for defenses, just pump PRR a bit as well.

[adrian69]

Major things gained from Monk splash:
25 PRR

Isn't the 25 Monk PRR not stacking with the new gear or something? Clarification of something I've read or heard someone say is needed.

[adrian69]

A lot of us in forums feel that 18/2x (monk or ftr) are better for playing a rogue through epics as a TA. Anyone have ideas about making a survivable pure TA for at least L hard play?

Human 20 Rogue
Starting Stats
Str-13
Dex-18
Con-15
Int-14
Wis-9
Chr-8

+6 Tomes, but 7 in str and con

3 heroic PLS, except for 2 rogue/1 wizard and 1 cleric

Bracex3/Doublestrikex3/Colorsx2/Weapon Enchantmentx2

1. PA/Cleave 3. Completionist. 6. Dodge 9. THF. 12 IC: Blud 15. ITHF 18. GTHF 21. OC 24. ISA. 26 PTWF 27 Epic DR 28. PTHF or Elusive Target. 29 Dire Charge or Embodiment or Chaos or Law. 30. Suggestions as to which would fit best here? Aborreah is fairly general. I'm not assassinating. There's another one that is good but I can't think of it off the top of my head and I've not updated me planner.


I got all the q-staff except epic elemental bloom, but I'm not sure if it's worth it.

Gearing would be different. I'm used to gearing Barbs and locks.


I'll probably change completionist out for Gcleave in epics.

[Hobgoblin]

Human 20 Rogue
Starting Stats
Str-13
Dex-18
Con-15
Int-14
Wis-9
Chr-8

+6 Tomes, but 7 in str and con

3 heroic PLS, except for 2 rogue/1 wizard and 1 cleric

Bracex3/Doublestrikex3/Colorsx2/Weapon Enchantmentx2

1. PA/Cleave 3. Completionist. 6. Dodge 9. THF. 12 IC: Blud 15. ITHF 18. GTHF 21. OC 24. ISA. 26 PTWF 27 Epic DR 28. PTHF or Elusive Target. 29 Dire Charge or Embodiment or Chaos or Law. 30. Suggestions as to which would fit best here? Aborreah is fairly general. I'm not assassinating. There's another one that is good but I can't think of it off the top of my head and I've not updated me planner.


I got all the q-staff except epic elemental bloom, but I'm not sure if it's worth it.

Gearing would be different. I'm used to gearing Barbs and locks.


I'll probably change completionist out for Gcleave in epics.

ethreal?

the air one?

[adrian69]

Human 20 Rogue
Starting Stats
Str-13
Dex-18
Con-15
Int-14
Wis-9
Chr-8

+6 Tomes, but 7 in str and con

3 heroic PLS, except for 2 rogue/1 wizard and 1 cleric

Bracex3/Doublestrikex3/Colorsx2/Weapon Enchantmentx2

1. PA/Cleave 3. Completionist. 6. Dodge 9. THF. 12 IC: Blud 15. ITHF 18. GTHF 21. OC 24. ISA. 26 PTWF 27 Epic DR 28. PTHF or Elusive Target. 29 Dire Charge or Embodiment or Chaos or Law. 30. Suggestions as to which would fit best here? Aborreah is fairly general. I'm not assassinating. There's another one that is good but I can't think of it off the top of my head and I've not updated me planner.


I got all the q-staff except epic elemental bloom, but I'm not sure if it's worth it.

Gearing would be different. I'm used to gearing Barbs and locks.


I'll probably change completionist out for Gcleave in epics.

And I have for AP spread

TA: 48 Points
Cores 1-6
T1: 2/3/0/0/3
T2: 2/0/0/6/3
T3: 2/0/6/0/2
T4: 2/0/6/0/2
T5: 2/2/2/0/x

Assassin: 23 Points
Core: 1-4
T1: 0/0/0/2/3
T2: 0/3/0/2/0
T3: 0/3/0/2/2
T4: 0/0/0/2/0

Human: 1
Core 1

Harpers: 8

Up to KtA.

[QuantumFX]

I personally liked Scion of the Astral Plane with Acrobat. Pushes you up to 42% dodge, adds DC to Sweeping Strikes and Dire Charge and Doublestrike is always nice on Two Hander.

Acrobat is still an AP heavy tree and killer in assassin is another 23 AP minimum,

Killer is redundant on an Acrobat. Quick Strike already covers your morale bonus to doublestrike.

[CThruTheEgo]

The issue is pure Rogue has very low PRR, you really need the 36 PRR from past lives just to hit 100 (with reasonable sacrifices) monks splash offers a noticeable defectives boost.

My main has been an assassin for years, so I'm just used to some degree of squishiness on a rogue. An acrobat would be a bit lower than an assassin, but they also get spinning staff wall for a boost.

PRR:
20 light armor with BAB of 20
35 item
18 insightful
10 epic damage reduction
83 TOTAL (45.36% damage reduction)
50 spinning staff wall
133 (57.08% damage reduction) for 20 seconds out of 90

Not that bad imo.

The last time I tried a TA I learned that quick strike and killer do not stack.

I hadn't noticed they were both a morale bonus. That's good to know. Although nimbleness in assassin, the level 12 core, is also good providing 5 melee power and up to 10% dodge on hit. That's a minimum of 21 AP in assassin. Not necessarily a must-have, but certainly worth consideration. And there is certainly a lot worth spending your AP on in assassin, so it's not like anything goes to waste.

Majors things lost from not being pure:
Attacking 2x enemies at once for full damage and knockdown on vorpal
A small amount of (single-target) DPS

I'm not sure I'd consider 5% quarterstaff attack speed a "small amount of (single-target) DPS" personally. Altogether, the capstone provides 3 damage, 2 crit damage, 7 average sneak attack damage, and 5% attack speed. I wouldn't consider that small.

Major things gained from Monk splash:
25 PRR
3 dodge
Healing Amp
More doublestrike (Air Stance if you really wish, but Scion of Astral Plane gives an additional +4 DS when centered which isn't possible with light armor. You can be centered on pure but then you have even less PRR).

It's a defensive vs. offensive thing. It's like Artificer splash on Mechanic, there's good points for both builds.

As for OP's question: pure is absolutely fine. Dodge is really great for defenses, just pump PRR a bit as well.

That's a costly AP investment though. Acrobat is a very expensive tree and there is a lot of dps stuff in assassin. There is nothing in tier 1 of shintao that is worth spending points on, so it's 4 AP wasted to access the 15 PRR. Altogether, you're looking at 15 AP minimum for what you listed.

I see that it's a difference between offense and defense, but I think there is more offense sacrificed than what you list here.

Isn't the 25 Monk PRR not stacking with the new gear or something? Clarification of something I've read or heard someone say is needed.

I haven't heard this before, but if it's true it would certainly be the nail in the coffin for the monk splash, I would think.

[unbongwah]

There is nothing in tier 1 of shintao that is worth spending points on, so it's 4 AP wasted to access the 15 PRR and second core for the 10 heal amp.

Rog 17 / monk 3 means giving up lvl 18 Acro core (+20% doublestrike), which would be a big single-target DPS hit.

In any case, I presume Qezuzu is talking about rog 18 / monk 2 builds like Andoris's.

[CThruTheEgo]

Rog 17 / monk 3 means giving up lvl 18 Acro core (+20% doublestrike), which would be a big single-target DPS hit.

In any case, I presume Qezuzu is talking about rog 18 / monk 2 builds like Andoris's.

Derp. I was assuming 18/2 also, as the OP mentioned. Daughter was distracting me while I was trying to post earlier.

[MalarKan]

Well, im not sure what do you mean with "end game possible". A pure TA rogue can easily work on LE with the proper gameplay and gearing. As long as you work towards having arround 1000 HP, 80+ prr and whatever mrr you can get, you should be fine. But you CAN NOT pretend to survive long enough at end game if you fail to get Displacement clickies and a high dodge cap. As a rogue you are definetly going to get attention at some point, so those really are a must.

If it helps, im going to share my current build with you so in case you can find some idea that might work for you

LVL 20 halfling rogue: 3 rog past lives; 1 paladin past life. Dex based.
Heroic Feats (Not in order): THF, I-THF, G-THF, Combat Expertise, Improved crit: Bludgeon, Dodge and Moblity;
Epic Feats (Not in order): Overwhelming Criticals, Improved Sneak Attack, Epic Damage Reduction, Blinding speed, Perfect THF, Elusive Target, Dire charge and Scion of the Astral Plane.
Tomes: +4 Int and Con. The rest are all +3.
Gear: Tharne's Goggles [i know, i know]; Eic Minos Legens; Necklaces of Mystic Eidolons; Planar Focus of Prowes/Manual of stealthy Pilfering; Epic cloak of ice; Ring of deceit; [Seal of House Dun'Robar; [Double strike +14, heal +20] Gloves; [Dex+14 with +34 sheltering] Boots; Epic Barbette's Bracers (for the +10 att bonus); Shadowscale robe.





Hope it helps you cheers!

[adrian69]

Well, im not sure what do you mean with "end game possible". A pure TA rogue can easily work on LE with the proper gameplay and gearing. As long as you work towards having arround 1000 HP, 80+ prr and whatever mrr you can get, you should be fine. But you CAN NOT pretend to survive long enough at end game if you fail to get Displacement clickies and a high dodge cap. As a rogue you are definetly going to get attention at some point, so those really are a must.

If it helps, im going to share my current build with you so in case you can find some idea that might work for you

LVL 20 halfling rogue: 3 rog past lives; 1 paladin past life. Dex based.
Heroic Feats (Not in order): THF, I-THF, G-THF, Combat Expertise, Improved crit: Bludgeon, Dodge and Moblity;
Epic Feats (Not in order): Overwhelming Criticals, Improved Sneak Attack, Epic Damage Reduction, Blinding speed, Perfect THF, Elusive Target, Dire charge and Scion of the Astral Plane.
Tomes: +4 Int and Con. The rest are all +3.
Gear: Tharne's Goggles [i know, i know]; Eic Minos Legens; Necklaces of Mystic Eidolons; Planar Focus of Prowes/Manual of stealthy Pilfering; Epic cloak of ice; Ring of deceit; [Seal of House Dun'Robar; [Double strike +14, heal +20] Gloves; [Dex+14 with +34 sheltering] Boots; Epic Barbette's Bracers (for the +10 att bonus); Shadowscale robe.





Hope it helps you cheers!

Not bad actually, I went human, but as so I'd pick up PA to toggle on and off with CE. PA is a fair amount of DPS on a TH. I'll probably toss in precision at 30 to toggle on/off for undead/bosses. Though Opportunist, Dragon's Edge, Assassin's Trick, and I'll pick up something with 15-20% will give me 85-90%...maybe Precision isn't needed. Will see for sure.


I wanted to stay pure so I could ETR back into an assassin one last time before coming into my final build on my main.

[unbongwah]

Though Opportunist, Dragon's Edge, Assassin's Trick, and I'll pick up something with 15-20% will give me 85-90%...maybe Precision isn't needed.

I'm not aware of any gear which stacks with Dragon's Edge; has that changed recently? Or do you mean you'll twist Grim Precision?

[Qezuzu]

I haven't heard this before, but if it's true it would certainly be the nail in the coffin for the monk splash, I would think.

If it didn't stack I would mention that. It stacks with everything, it's wind stance that does not stack with insightful DS item.

I think you're overstating the amount of offense you get from 2 more levels of rogue. Yes it is noticeable, but it's not make or break. 18/2 build still does plenty of damage, it's not like I'm giving up the 20% DS core. With the alacrity and the melee power I'd ballpark it at 6% less damage, the loss of 2x enemies attacked at once is the only significant loss. Execute is pretty hard to fit in as well, but can be taken if you give up KTA.