Third druid tree: Tender of the Grove

[HastyPudding]

Soooo...the druid is missing their 3rd tree, and in keeping with many of the divine classes, each one should have a supportive tree. Thus, I decided upon a quasi-healer/crowd control/buffer/pet tree.

CORE 1: Tender of the Grove
+0.5 universal spellpower and +1 positive energy spellpower per point spent in this tree.

CORE 2: Cool Breeze
When you cast a positive energy spell, you gain a 10% bonus to your movement speed for 6 seconds.
+5 positive energy spellpower
(Requires Tender of the Grove / Druid level 3)

CORE 3: Refreshing Winds
When you cast a positive energy spell on an ally, they also now gain a 10% bonus to movement speed for 6 seconds.
+5 positive energy spellpower
(requires Cool Breeze / Druid level 6)

CORE 4: Wind Through The Trees
+1 to transmutation spell DC's
+5 positive energy spellpower.
(Requires Refreshing Winds / Druid level 12)

CORE 5: Bountiful Harvest
+1 to transmutation spell DC's
+5 positive energy spellpower
(Requires Wind Through The Trees / Druid level 18)

Capstone: Renewed Growth
+2 wisdom
+2 constitution
+1 to transmutation spell DC's
+10 positive spellpower
+10% critical hit damage with positive energy spells

Regrowth: Spell-Like Ability: Fill an ally with natural energy for 30 seconds. Every second they are healed for 1d6 positive energy and receive a 10% stacking bonus to movement speed. (Cooldown: 40 seconds, Cost: 10 SP)
(Requires Bountiful Harvest / Druid level 20)

TIER 1
Treant Form: 2 AP
Activate this ability to transform into an elder treant. While in treant form, you gain 100% fortification, +20 positive energy spellpower, +1 caster level and maximum caster level with positive energy spells, and gain a +2 racial bonus to wisdom and constitution but take a -4 penalty to dexterity and -10 racial penalty to fire resistance. If you are a Warforged, you are no longer considered a living construct, and become immune to repair spells, but can be healed normally by positive energy spells. You are now considered a plant for purposes of most spells and effects and are immune to paralysis, stunning, sleep, poison damage, and most mind-affecting spells. Activation cost: 5 spell points.
(As far as visual effects go, I'd guess a barkskin appearance with a permanent camouflage spell effect with the tree limbs and leaves with glowing white eyes.)

Energy In Nature: 1/1/1 AP
Increase your maximum spell points by 30/60/100.

Entangle: Spell-Like Ability: 1/1/1 AP
Entangle: Primal magic awakens plants and vines to grasp at the caster's enemies. Entangled creatures suffer a 90% penalty to movement speed, a 50% attack speed penalty, and a -1 penalty to attack rolls, AC, and Reflex. A successful Reflex save negates this effect. Entangled creatures may leave the affected area to escape its effects, or attempt to make a Strength check every 2 seconds to negate. Area of effect fire spells will destroy these vines and free any entangled creature. Incorporeal creatures and oozes are naturally immune. Fire elementals and other fire creatures are immune because they burn through the plants. (Cost: 8/6/4 SP. Cooldown: 12/10/8 seconds)

Natural Order: 1/1/1 AP
Your summons, pets, charmed creatures, and hirelings receive a +2/+4/+6 bonus to all ability scores. Anti-requisite: Harper Leadership.

Empathy: 1/1/1 AP
+1/+2/+3 heal, concentration, and wild empathy uses.


TIER 2
Barkskin: 2 AP
Permanently gain the effects of the barkskin spell.
(Requires Treant Form)

Efficient Metamagic: 2/2/2 AP
Choose between Quicken, Extend, and Empower Healing

Snare: Spell-Like Ability: 1/1/1 AP
Creates a snare that when triggered entangles a single enemy. An entangled creature may attempt to make a Strength check every 2 seconds to escape. Incorporeal creatures, and Oozes cannot be caught in the snare. (Cost: 10/8/6 SP. Cooldown: 15/12/9 seconds) (Requires Entangle: Spell-Like Ability)

Natural Allies: 1/1/1 AP
Your summons, pets, charmed creatures, and hirelings receive +10%/15%/20% maximum HP and +5%/+10%/+15% movement speed. (Requires Natural Order)

Subtle Spellcasting: 1/1/1 AP
Your damaging spells generate 10%/20%/30% less hate than they normally would, making enemies less likely to attack you.


TIER 3
Deep Roots: 2 AP
While in Treant Form, you become immune to most knockdown and trip effects. Passive: +10 positive energy spellpower.
(Requires Barkskin)

Efficient Metamagic: 2/2/2 AP
Choose between Quicken, Extend, and Empower Healing
(Requires Efficient Metamagic, tier 2)

Lesser Vigor: Spell-Like Ability: 1/1/1 AP
A positive energy conjuration that heals 1d2, +1 per 3 caster levels (max +2 at caster level 6), every 2 seconds for 8 seconds. Only one vigor spell can be active at a time, with the most beneficial taking priority. If multiple Vigor spells are cast on the same target, then the duration is extended. (Cost: 10/8/6 SP. Cooldown: 15/12/9 seconds) (Requires Snare: Spell-Like Ability)

Natural Defenses: 1/1/1 AP
Your summons, pets, charmed creatures, and hirelings receive +4/+8/+12 to all saves and +15/+30/+45 to all resistances. (Requires Natural Allies)

Constitution or Wisdom: Choose one: 2 AP
+1 Constitution
+1 Wisdom


TIER 4
Enchanted Bark: 1/1/1 AP
While in Treant Form, you gain a +5/+10/+15 bonus to magic resistance rating. At rank 3 you become immune to death magic and instant death effects.

Healing Potency: 1/1/1 AP
Your positive energy spells gain +1/+2/+3 caster levels.

Lesser Vigor, Mass: Spell-Like Ability: 1/1/1 AP
Casts Lesser Vigor on multiple targets. A positive energy conjuration that heals 1d2, +1 per 3 caster levels (max +8 at caster level 24), every 2 seconds for 8 seconds. Only one Vigor spell can be active at a time, with the most beneficial taking priority. If multiple Vigor spells are cast on the same target,the duration is extended. (Cost: 25/20/15 SP. Cooldown: 20/16/12 seconds) (Requires Lesser Vigor: Spell-Like Ability)

Natural Weapons: 1/1/1 AP
Your summons, pets, charmed creatures, and hirelings receive +10/+20/+30 melee, ranged, and universal spellpower. (Requires Natural Defenses) (Anti-requisite: Imbue Summons)

Constitution or Wisdom: Choose one: 2 AP
+1 Constitution
+1 Wisdom


TIER 5
Wisdom of the Ancients: 2 AP
Only usable while in Treant Form. Activate to gain Wisdom of the Ancients for 30 seconds, gaining +20 positive energy spellpower, +20% positive energy critical damage, and +20% positive energy spell critical hit chance. While active, if you are struck with an attack you gain 30 temporary hit points for 10 seconds.(Activation Cost: 25 SP. Cooldown: 3 minutes) (Requires Enchanted Bark)

Nature's Embrace: 2 AP
When you heal allies with positive energy spells they gain 20 temporary hit points for 10 seconds. This may trigger on healing-over-time spells such as vigor or regenerate, but no more than once every 5 seconds.

Flesh to Stone: Spell-Like Ability: 1/1/1 AP
Turns a single fleshy target into a mindless, inert statue in a Petrified condition. In stone form, creatures are much more difficult to damage (Damage Reduction 10/Adamantine), but are Helpless and receive 50% more damage because of it. Only creatures made of flesh are affected by this spell. This effect lasts 60 seconds plus 10 seconds per caster level, but the target has a chance to remake its Fortitude save every 24 seconds. (Cost: 30/25/20 SP. Cooldown: 18/14/10 seconds) (Requires Lesser Vigor, Mass: Spell-Like Ability)

Natural Power: 1/1/1 AP
Your summons, pets, charmed creatures, and hirelings receive +1/+2/+3 critical threat range with natural weapons and +10% chance to critically hit with all spells. (Requires Natural Weapons)

Multiselector: 3 AP
Natural Magic: +2 spell penetration and +2 to transmutation DC's.
Natural Healing: +15 positive energy spellpower and +5% positive energy spell critical hit chance.

[cru121]

weak cores

very strong tree form for 3 AP and 1 druid level
also strong knockdown immunity at level 3
also strong T4 tree enhancers (Sealed Life thing)

meh SLAs T1-T4
SLAs should not be linked together with requirements

Overall: needs oomph. Mass Regen SLA. The Entangle/Snare SLAs could be reworked into passive abilities, proccing randomly on offensive spells, or as a guard effect. Could also affect summons/pets.

[HastyPudding]

weak cores

very strong tree form for 3 AP and 1 druid level
also strong knockdown immunity at level 3
also strong T4 tree enhancers (Sealed Life thing)

meh SLAs T1-T4
SLAs should not be linked together with requirements

Overall: needs oomph. Mass Regen SLA. The Entangle/Snare SLAs could be reworked into passive abilities, proccing randomly on offensive spells, or as a guard effect. Could also affect summons/pets.

There's not a whole lot you can do with healing. Perhaps adding the restoration or greater restoration spells to the druid's spell list, maybe in the 3rd and 5th cores, respectively.

I made the tree form simply because there isn't any sort of healer form for druids. If there was one, you could probably put a generic +2% positive spellpower critical hit chance line or something of the sort. Perhaps the tree form needs steeper penalties, or even move the tree form to the cores, making it progressively get better with more druid levels.

The SLA's were meant to be more focused on transmutation DC spells, starting with simple CC spells like entangle/snare and working up to flesh to stone (I originally thought of splinterbolt in tier 2 and salt ray in tier 4). I would gut the entire tree before adding some sort of random proc on offensive spells. If I was going to advocate shiradi spamming nonsense I would simply quit the game and not bother with this thread at all. A proc on healing wouldn't be bad, though, say randomly triggering lesser restoration, remove poison/disease/curse, small amounts of temporary HP, or something like that on healing spell casts, just to give more utility.

A mass regenerate SLA would be supremely overpowered in ANY tree. The cleric's radiant servant tree doesn't even have a heal, mass heal, or even a mass cure wounds sla. I stuck with the lesser vigor spells simply because you don't need some sort of massive healing ability with only 1-4 druid levels. Lesser vigor is weak, but with metamagics it's a decent thing to toss around without worrying about SP costs. It's not meant to be powerful; it's meant to be a heal you can toss out to top off red bars, not heal raids.

[Grace_ana]

This obviously took a lot of thought, and it's pretty cool

I wish snare and entangle were better spells than they are. I'd like to see the devs take a look at the spells themselves and make them actually scale past level 3. If they did that, I'd be fine with these spell choices. Otherwise, I'd bump the lesser vigor to tier 1 and then go vigor, mass lesser, mass vigor.

I do agree that treant form is way too powerful at tier 1. I'd take several of those benefits and move them upwards. Perhaps remove the negatives also and add them in later? Like moving from a sapling to an elder treant - no stat changes initially, but later you get con but lose dex, in addition to lots of other benefits. I'd remove the deathward part and replace it with the caster level increase given earlier, and I'd change the MRR to PRR, which seems more thematic for a sturdy tree.

[cru121]

Panacea SLA (or mass)
Quench SLA (or mass, or somehow increase the number of enemies it can affect)
Baleful Polymorph - single target Mass Frog; on save cause target to suffer some nasty debuff

Tree form gains upgradeable Root ability; lasts for 10-30 seconds or until you move away, low SP cost, balanced by cooldown.
at lvl 1: entangle (applying all eligible metas)
at lvl 3: lesser vigor mass
at lvl 6: spike growth + persistent roots (effects persists for a few seconds after you move away)
at lvl 12: vigor mass + covers larger area
at lvl 18: cooldown reduction + something cool
at lvl 20: something very cool

T4 multiselector, gives something to Root
- poisonous tree: contagion to all, either no save OR proc on each tic of spike growth
- deep roots: upon rooting trigger short-time Tremor / Earthquake effect
- muddy ground: slows mobs
- misty: allies in radius gain concealment miss chance equal to druid CL

[burlicconi]

There is some old topci about that:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ight=lost+tree

But, with recent enhancement pass, I can see that this suggestion probably should be updated.

I'm still thinking that druid MUST have better summoner trees (better that Warlock now).

[HastyPudding]

Panacea SLA (or mass)
Quench SLA (or mass, or somehow increase the number of enemies it can affect)
Baleful Polymorph - single target Mass Frog; on save cause target to suffer some nasty debuff

Tree form gains upgradeable Root ability; lasts for 10-30 seconds or until you move away, low SP cost, balanced by cooldown.
at lvl 1: entangle (applying all eligible metas)
at lvl 3: lesser vigor mass
at lvl 6: spike growth + persistent roots (effects persists for a few seconds after you move away)
at lvl 12: vigor mass + covers larger area
at lvl 18: cooldown reduction + something cool
at lvl 20: something very cool

T4 multiselector, gives something to Root
- poisonous tree: contagion to all, either no save OR proc on each tic of spike growth
- deep roots: upon rooting trigger short-time Tremor / Earthquake effect
- muddy ground: slows mobs
- misty: allies in radius gain concealment miss chance equal to druid CL

You just gave me another idea for an even better and more useful 3rd druid tee: a bog witch/shaman type of spellcaster. You have a few healing SLA's, pet/summon/hireling support, but with a heavy focus on debuffs. Think of a souleater warlock but less insta-kill focused and more emphasis on support, crowd control, and debuffing. You can even have multiselector SLA's like spellsinger, taking which SLA you prefer depending on your emphasis on healing or debuffing.

- A Baleful Polymorph SLA with a moderate cooldown that turns a single enemy into a frog.

- Entangle SLA (I know it's not great, but it works as a low-level SLA and is thematic, and all caster trees have their low-level SLA's that aren't super useful later on)

- Some form of grease SLA that doesn't affect allies, and is more brown colored with a higher DC save. Like a mudslide or swampy muck.

- The cores could have a random-like proc on your offensive spells, gradually getting better with druid levels, and having a chance to trigger the following effects: poison, bestow curse, healing curse, disease, touch of idiocy, doom, bane, silence, feeblemind, fear, crushing despair, 1 negative level, exhaustion, or sleep.

- A Vigor SLA and Mass Lesser Vigor SLA. Maybe a Panacea SLA in tier 5.

- Due to the nature of this tree, it might be useful to add spell penetration enhancements.

- Maybe a fog or obscuring mist SLA, something more defensive to toy with.

Just a few ideas that came to me.

[burlicconi]

I think that we should first define what 3 enhancement trees druids should have.
One is caster and is good as it is, more or less (final core should be upgrated!).

Second one is "multipractic" and it is not good at all, because you can choose between wolf, bear and some occasional buffs. If you are wolf, all bear enhancement are out for you. And you have Celerity, Four Legs Good, Improved Dodge, Hide of the Crocodile, Flight which are not so great or have long cooldown. So, basically ,very few enhancement to take if you want to really increase you survivability.

Beast stances should not stack, so you should have only one of them, also.

So, this tree should be for shapeshifter druids. I would recommend that new enhancement must be like this- when you pick some enhancement like Essence of the Turtle you also got Essence of the Shrike. You can not be in both forms at the same time, so this is like one ehnancement.
This tree should increase you offence and defence, melee combat and similar.

Third tree should be summoner tree. In that tree I would place enhancements to buff your summons, so Blood Moon Frenzy would go in this tree. One line in this tree should be for healing, one for increasing defence and offence of pets, and one for transmutation spells- entangle, spare, spike growth and so.

In core enhancement of this tree I would place some "new" stuffs, like casting buff on yourself is instantly casted on your pets, too. At 18th lvl or so you should get another wolf or bear, choice is yours. I would also place some toggle or so for buffing your whole army when you are near each other- like increased damage and speed attack for every pet that is near you.
Warlock enhancment like is great, so something similar we should have here, but with more pet love!

At the end, you should be able to choose between shapeshifter, caster or summoner. Summoner can do some CC and can use pets for DPS and can choose between additional DPS which comes either from his wolf or bear form or his spells.

Also, some items that buff your pets must be implemented- some that gives attack speed, PRR, MRR and damage increase. Same for augments.

[HastyPudding]

I think that we should first define what 3 enhancement trees druids should have.
One is caster and is good as it is, more or less (final core should be upgrated!).

Second one is "multipractic" and it is not good at all, because you can choose between wolf, bear and some occasional buffs. If you are wolf, all bear enhancement are out for you. And you have Celerity, Four Legs Good, Improved Dodge, Hide of the Crocodile, Flight which are not so great or have long cooldown. So, basically ,very few enhancement to take if you want to really increase you survivability.

Beast stances should not stack, so you should have only one of them, also.

So, this tree should be for shapeshifter druids. I would recommend that new enhancement must be like this- when you pick some enhancement like Essence of the Turtle you also got Essence of the Shrike. You can not be in both forms at the same time, so this is like one ehnancement.
This tree should increase you offence and defence, melee combat and similar.

Third tree should be summoner tree. In that tree I would place enhancements to buff your summons, so Blood Moon Frenzy would go in this tree. One line in this tree should be for healing, one for increasing defence and offence of pets, and one for transmutation spells- entangle, spare, spike growth and so.

In core enhancement of this tree I would place some "new" stuffs, like casting buff on yourself is instantly casted on your pets, too. At 18th lvl or so you should get another wolf or bear, choice is yours. I would also place some toggle or so for buffing your whole army when you are near each other- like increased damage and speed attack for every pet that is near you.
Warlock enhancment like is great, so something similar we should have here, but with more pet love!

At the end, you should be able to choose between shapeshifter, caster or summoner. Summoner can do some CC and can use pets for DPS and can choose between additional DPS which comes either from his wolf or bear form or his spells.

Also, some items that buff your pets must be implemented- some that gives attack speed, PRR, MRR and damage increase. Same for augments.

1. I made a pass at the nature's warrior tree, here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...29#post5775329. It pretty much makes you choose between tanky/survivable/cleave-spamming bear or fast/offensive/evasive wolf.

2. We can disagree that the caster tree for druids is fine as it is. There is a TON of fluff in season's herald that simply doesn't need to be there and can be replaced/changed out with other things. Wand and Scroll mastery just doesn't seem of much use to druids who have a plethora of healing spells and often don't find themselves using scrolls much except for resurrection or greater restoration. The +1/2/3 spell penetration enhancement is like giving a +1/2/3 ranged power enhancement to a barbarian tree; sure it's nice, but 99% of the time you're not going to use it, so it's wasted space. Nature's Warden and Autumnal Susurrus are just fluff that I don't even spend AP on simply because there are better things. Crown of Summer and Spring Resurgence could be removed from this tree and placed in the third support tree where it fits better. Winter's Heart is a terrible 5th tier enhancement, especially since its damage is very low and the blast is centered on yourself, which is highly unlikely to hit anything because a druid caster is going to want to be away from the center of the action like most spellcasters.

The changing of seasons is an interesting mechanic, but you very, very rarely plan your attacks around it, and in the vast majority of cases I find myself simply ignoring it, and an ignored mechanic is a pointless mechanic. I mean, half the time you're playing, the Wax and Wane spell critical line is going to be mostly useless to you, as it's boosting spells you're simply not using (like boosting firewall and flamestrike when you're in water elemental form spamming ice storms, earthquakes, and creeping cold). The 5th tier enhancement, Time and Tide, is the same thing. It's wasted AP half the time you play.

Druid damage also suffers in epics, but that's a different story entirely.

3. I would agree that a support/summoner/CC tree would be the most beneficial as the third tree. Maybe some vigor spell SLA's and some heavy focus on pet buffs, passives, and triggers (like blood moon). Still, until pets and summons are at least half-way viable, it would be a meaningless tree unless it gave ridiculous benefits like the epic augment summoning and scion of elysium feats.

[Selvera]

You had me at "quasi-healer/crowd control/buffer/pet tree" - This is exactly what I wanted to make when I made my first druid, and I was sad to see neither of the trees helped do this in any significant way (also that there were only 2 trees). Druid past lives give buffs to pets and hirelings, but they have no enhancement tree which supports this?

Now that you have my approval, wonderful idea for a tree, let's look at it a little deeper:

Core 1: universal spellpower/positive spellpower. Pretty run-of-the mill caster core ability, focused on healing. I like it.
Core 2: Interesting, nice healer buff. Seems ok.
Core 3: Is this so powerful that it needs to be seperated from core 2? Core 2 theoretically could have both, leaving a core open. Subject to balance of course, Dev team decision here.
Core 4/5: They have different names but from what I see, they do the exact same thing. Also +1 DC to one tree seems rather weak for a core ability.
Capstone: Nice, passive stats are quite powerful and the active also seems pretty good. Does critical damage increase the healing with healing spells? I'd almost say some of the power of this ability could be added to the 5th core to spread out the power a little.

Tier 1:
Tree form: Very powerful for a tier 1 ability. I would recommend splitting up a number of these buffs into different abilities (higher tier) which enhance the tree form. More vulnerability to fire would fit the bill to make it a little weaker and more believable. This, or lowered movement speed (which you can gain back through the 2nd core ability right?).
Energy In Nature: Generic caster enhancement here. Pretty decent, always good to have a couple of these.
Entangle: I've never been a fan of spell-like abilities as enhancements (without making it better then just, ya know, having the spell), but having entangle as one seems to fit the bill well for this tree. Would be nice if it also made entangle scale well to higher levels.
Natural Order: Would mean that I no longer need the Harper tree for my pet-based druid. Sounds good.
Empathy: Generic tier-1 skill ability, gives bonuses to the right skills, nice.

Tier 2:
Barkskin: 2 AP to add a spell to a form that already has a ton of stuff seems a bit steep, I suggest moving some of the buffs from the tier 1 ability to this one to spread out the power more evenly. (Give this the 100% fort and the immunity to poison, in addition to the permanent bark-skin)
Efficient Metamagic: Generic metamagic feat for casters. Looks good and fits the bill. I approve.
Snare: Spell-Like Ability: See my comment for entangle, same thoughts here.
Natural Allies: I like. Might be a bit powerful for 1 ap a piece, but a bit weak for 2 ap a piece. However pets/summons currently need a little love (especially at mid-epic levels from what I hear, so 1 ap a piece is probably good enough.
Subtle Spellcasting: Seems sort of out of place in a CC/pet/support tree that's not focused on damage spells.

Tier 3
Deep Roots: Looks fine, although again I'd consider adding more power to it in exchange for losing power on the tier-1 ability.
Efficient Metamagic: Generic metamagic caster enhancement. Fits with the tree.
Lesser Vigor: See my comments on spell like abilities as enhancements. Since this is tier-3 I would have expected at least a 2nd level spell (if not a 3rd level spell) to be the one picked. Vigor would work.
Natural Defenses: That's a lot to all saves, do they need this much? Probably, but it seems like this should be a 2 ap per enhancement ability due to just how much it gives.
Constitution or Wisdom: Generic stat boost for tier-3. Gives bonuses to the right stats.

Tier 4
Enchanted Bark: I like. Powerful enough to be worth taking this much into the tree-tree and gives some nice bonuses for investing deep into the tree.
Healing Potency: So this is what makes a good healer a good healer right? I like.
Lesser Vigor, Mass: See note on spell like abilities. Lessor vigor mass seems like an appropriate spell level for a tier-4 ability.
Natural Weapons: I like. Pets, summons, hirelings AND charmed creatures all need a buff like this, and deep in the druid class tree is the perfect place for this.
Constitution or Wisdom: Again, generic tier-4 stat boost. Gives bonuses to the right stats.

Tier 5
Wisdom of the Ancients: Very powerful buff, but with quite a short duration. I would prefer to see this with a 1 minute duration and slightly less power, but it's ok as is.
Nature's Embrace: Very nice buff to healing that's unique. Looks good.
Flesh to Stone: See comments on spell like abilities. I can buy into flesh to stone being an iconic druid spell and it's good CC.
Natural Power: Looks good, I like it. Definitely tier-5 worthy for a summoner.
Multiselector: Seems a bit overshadowed by wisdom of the ancients, but it is permanent, so there's that.

[burlicconi]

1. I made a pass at the nature's warrior tree, here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...29#post5775329. It pretty much makes you choose between tanky/survivable/cleave-spamming bear or fast/offensive/evasive wolf.

2. We can disagree that the caster tree for druids is fine as it is. There is a TON of fluff in season's herald that simply doesn't need to be there and can be replaced/changed out with other things. Wand and Scroll mastery just doesn't seem of much use to druids who have a plethora of healing spells and often don't find themselves using scrolls much except for resurrection or greater restoration. The +1/2/3 spell penetration enhancement is like giving a +1/2/3 ranged power enhancement to a barbarian tree; sure it's nice, but 99% of the time you're not going to use it, so it's wasted space. Nature's Warden and Autumnal Susurrus are just fluff that I don't even spend AP on simply because there are better things. Crown of Summer and Spring Resurgence could be removed from this tree and placed in the third support tree where it fits better. Winter's Heart is a terrible 5th tier enhancement, especially since its damage is very low and the blast is centered on yourself, which is highly unlikely to hit anything because a druid caster is going to want to be away from the center of the action like most spellcasters.

The changing of seasons is an interesting mechanic, but you very, very rarely plan your attacks around it, and in the vast majority of cases I find myself simply ignoring it, and an ignored mechanic is a pointless mechanic. I mean, half the time you're playing, the Wax and Wane spell critical line is going to be mostly useless to you, as it's boosting spells you're simply not using (like boosting firewall and flamestrike when you're in water elemental form spamming ice storms, earthquakes, and creeping cold). The 5th tier enhancement, Time and Tide, is the same thing. It's wasted AP half the time you play.

Druid damage also suffers in epics, but that's a different story entirely.

3. I would agree that a support/summoner/CC tree would be the most beneficial as the third tree. Maybe some vigor spell SLA's and some heavy focus on pet buffs, passives, and triggers (like blood moon). Still, until pets and summons are at least half-way viable, it would be a meaningless tree unless it gave ridiculous benefits like the epic augment summoning and scion of elysium feats.

I agree with you alsmot every sentence. Nature warrior MUST be redefined, this is awful tree now. It was fine back in time of release, but now there is no melee power at all in this tree for example... Also, I must once more say that choosing bear should not "lock" choosing wolf enhancements and vice versa. Why you would drop one form entirely when you can be decent in both forms?

About Season Herald- it is much better than Nature Warrior, but it is its own weakness, you noted almost all of them. I would add that final core enhancement must be updated, either +4 WIS or +1 to evocation spells, and probably something like +1 to caster and max caster lvl.

Also, I totally agree with you that Crown of Smmer and Spring Resurgence should be places in 3rd, summoner tree. Also, same is for Blood Moon Frenzy.
I check your "try" for new Nature Warrior tree, your comments are good, I'll probably join discussion there.

About 3rd tree I would love to see some "new" from Turbine and that is summons that can be decent. I love my druid wolf, and I think that another one can be good for summoners. Also, if you invest 20-30 pts in summoner tree, you should get two decent sources of DPS. One more hire and you have decent army by your side. You can be shapeshifter or caster, that's your choice, but you can combine summoner with those.

[burlicconi]

Played mostly as a druid all these years, back to time when druid was released, I tried to play mostly as summoner, but it is not "viable" (hate this word and it's context). As druid my favourite class, I hope that 3rd tree would be summoner tree.

SPOLIER: Wall of text!

We have spoken about summoner for a quite time now, but Turbine never "take that challenge". It's obviously now that spellcaster will be reworked, so it is gret chance to revive spellcasters. Druid is one of them, so lets talk about new tree.

If you want to be summoner, you should be prepare to spend enhancement points into something "other than yourself"- your pets, hires and summons. In other words, you should be prepared to invest into something that must be reliable. That means that you invest in hire and pet. Hires are ok (melee hires), pets can be ok if proper trained and heavy invested(feats and equipment). But, to be a summoner means that you should have something more, say army that is worth investing.

I councluded that best way to do it is to give another pet to druids. This can be wolf or bear, player choice (or maybe two bears). First one druid gets at 1st level, as it is now, second one should come later, 12+ lvl, maybe 15th. Wolfs are considered as sneaky DPS, bears should be considered as tanks. So, bears should have more HP, PRR, MRR, AC and so... How to do that- similar as druids wolf and bear forms (they badly need to be reworked!)in principle. Also, I would add one more things to pets- as it is now, wolfs can wear collar and armor, maybe we should thing about adding shield spot, either independant or instead of collar, at least for bears.

So, summoner now have two pets? One at 1st, another one at 15th lvl. Pets level is equal to level of druid. There is potential to add new feat- your pets level are equal your character, not druid, wizard or artificer level. We can also disccus WHEN to add another pet- at 1st, 5th or 15 lvl, that's for sure.

Assuming that you now have two pets and you can have hire (od owlbear or panther, but those are exceptions, should not be considered here), you now have 4 men to take care of (including youself). That's decent number and worth investing enhancement point and feat.

Enhancement should boost your army DPS and defences. Say that you want to invest 40-50 EP in this tree. What should you get, considering that you don't invest directly in yourself. You should get army that will not get killed in 3-5 seconds in EPICs and that can cope with Epic Elite. You should be able to do decent DPS (no matter if you are melee or caster) while your army shields you. Take a look of warlock summoner line- that's the way we want to find some hints.

Also, tree should be possible to offer some benefits ONLY for you, even if you don't want to play summoner. Reverse as swashbuckler tree- that tree almost only for bard himself, not for party.

1st core:
0.5 HP, 0.5 universal SP, 1 positive SP for you per point in this tree
2 HP, 1 melee power, 1 fortification, I PRR, 1 MRR for your pets and hires in this tree
2% positive critical chance per core in this tree after this one

2nd core:
+ 1 caster and max caster level for conjuration spells
+ 1 attack and damage to your pets and hires

3rd core:
+ 1 caster and max caster level for conjuration spells
toggle: when you cast spell (other than healing spell) on yourself, it is casted to your pets and hires (similar as Inspiring Echoes)
this should be true for barkskin, FoM, Stoneskin, Enveloping Swarm, Animal Growth, Fire Shield, Spiderskin, Crown of Summer- spells that are buffs
+ 1 attack and damage to your pets and hires

4th core:
+ 1 caster and max caster level for conjuration spells
SLA Creeping Doom
+10 healing amplification for you, hires and pets
+ 1 attack and damage to your pets and hires

5th core:
+ 1 caster and max caster level for conjuration spells
SLA Storm of Vengeance (this is conjurating spell, should go here, new one should be placed in Season Herald, earthquake or so)
+10 healing amplification for you, hires and pets
+ 1 attack and damage to your pets and hires
+ 2 to all stats for hries and pets

6th core:
+ 2 WIS, + 2 CON to you
+ 4 to all stats for your hires and pets
+ 1 DC Conjuration and transmutation
+ 2 caster and max caster level for conjuration spells
+ 2 attack and damage to your pets and hires
+ 5 double strike and AC for your pets and hires

Enhancements:

1st tier:

1/2/3 AC, attack, dodge and dodge cap for hires and pets
1/2/3 animal empathy + 5/10/15 positive spell power
1/2/3 heal, universal SP, damage for allies, and rank 3 +1 sneak attack dice for hires and pets
10% hitpoints for you and hires and pets as long as at least one pet is not standing still (2 EP)
+1/2/3 DR and 2/4/6 to trip, sunder for hires and pets

2nd tier:
Blood Moon Frenzy (from Nature Warrior tree)
Silver Moon Frenzy (when your hires or pets kill opponent you give +5 universal spellpower, 1% critical chance for spells and 1 attack and damage, stack 5 times)
expend use of wild empathy to give
SLA splinterbolt
+1/3/5 to saves for your hires and pets, rank 3 grants +1 stacking saves for you


3rd tier:
SLA fire seeds
your wild empathy regenerates, one per 2 mins
expend wild empathy to give +15/30% boost to damage and speed to hires and pets for 20 sec
+10 healing aplification and universal SP for you and you hires and pets as long as they are not stand still
whenever you or your hires or pets are damaged by some spell, you can get 5 spell power of that type, passive : +5 universal SP

4th tier:
SLA less vigor, mass
Spring Resurgence
can expend wild empathy to cast displacement on your hires and allies
Nature's mark: expend wild empathy to mark one target- all your hires and pets instantly attack him, and target gets -2 all stats, -20 fortification and attack speed
whenever you or your hires or pets are damaged by some spell, there is X% chance that X% of damage can be converted to temp HP or SP that lasts for Xsec, passive : +5 universal SP (say X is ok to be 10)

5th tier:
Crown of Summer (from Seson Herald. If casted on pets all gain benefits)
SLA vigor, mass
your pets get additional ring slot
+ 1 DC, caster and max caster for conjuration and transmutation spells
expand wild empathy to create sigil that heals your allies and damage opponent, similar as consecrating ground, lasts for 10 sec

Also, pets enhancement tree (its own, 2 pts per level should be reworked- trap, bluff, intimdiation doesn't work now. Heal from corpses should increase with level of pet).

[HastyPudding]

Played mostly as a druid all these years, back to time when druid was released, I tried to play mostly as summoner, but it is not "viable" (hate this word and it's context). As druid my favourite class, I hope that 3rd tree would be summoner tree.

SPOLIER: Wall of text!

We have spoken about summoner for a quite time now, but Turbine never "take that challenge". It's obviously now that spellcaster will be reworked, so it is gret chance to revive spellcasters. Druid is one of them, so lets talk about new tree.

If you want to be summoner, you should be prepare to spend enhancement points into something "other than yourself"- your pets, hires and summons. In other words, you should be prepared to invest into something that must be reliable. That means that you invest in hire and pet. Hires are ok (melee hires), pets can be ok if proper trained and heavy invested(feats and equipment). But, to be a summoner means that you should have something more, say army that is worth investing.

I councluded that best way to do it is to give another pet to druids. This can be wolf or bear, player choice (or maybe two bears). First one druid gets at 1st level, as it is now, second one should come later, 12+ lvl, maybe 15th. Wolfs are considered as sneaky DPS, bears should be considered as tanks. So, bears should have more HP, PRR, MRR, AC and so... How to do that- similar as druids wolf and bear forms (they badly need to be reworked!)in principle. Also, I would add one more things to pets- as it is now, wolfs can wear collar and armor, maybe we should thing about adding shield spot, either independant or instead of collar, at least for bears.

So, summoner now have two pets? One at 1st, another one at 15th lvl. Pets level is equal to level of druid. There is potential to add new feat- your pets level are equal your character, not druid, wizard or artificer level. We can also disccus WHEN to add another pet- at 1st, 5th or 15 lvl, that's for sure.

Assuming that you now have two pets and you can have hire (od owlbear or panther, but those are exceptions, should not be considered here), you now have 4 men to take care of (including youself). That's decent number and worth investing enhancement point and feat.

Enhancement should boost your army DPS and defences. Say that you want to invest 40-50 EP in this tree. What should you get, considering that you don't invest directly in yourself. You should get army that will not get killed in 3-5 seconds in EPICs and that can cope with Epic Elite. You should be able to do decent DPS (no matter if you are melee or caster) while your army shields you. Take a look of warlock summoner line- that's the way we want to find some hints.

Also, tree should be possible to offer some benefits ONLY for you, even if you don't want to play summoner. Reverse as swashbuckler tree- that tree almost only for bard himself, not for party.

1st core:
0.5 HP, 0.5 universal SP, 1 positive SP for you per point in this tree
2 HP, 1 melee power, 1 fortification, I PRR, 1 MRR for your pets and hires in this tree
2% positive critical chance per core in this tree after this one

2nd core:
+ 1 caster and max caster level for conjuration spells
+ 1 attack and damage to your pets and hires

3rd core:
+ 1 caster and max caster level for conjuration spells
toggle: when you cast spell (other than healing spell) on yourself, it is casted to your pets and hires (similar as Inspiring Echoes)
this should be true for barkskin, FoM, Stoneskin, Enveloping Swarm, Animal Growth, Fire Shield, Spiderskin, Crown of Summer- spells that are buffs
+ 1 attack and damage to your pets and hires

4th core:
+ 1 caster and max caster level for conjuration spells
SLA Creeping Doom
+10 healing amplification for you, hires and pets
+ 1 attack and damage to your pets and hires

5th core:
+ 1 caster and max caster level for conjuration spells
SLA Storm of Vengeance (this is conjurating spell, should go here, new one should be placed in Season Herald, earthquake or so)
+10 healing amplification for you, hires and pets
+ 1 attack and damage to your pets and hires
+ 2 to all stats for hries and pets

6th core:
+ 2 WIS, + 2 CON to you
+ 4 to all stats for your hires and pets
+ 1 DC Conjuration and transmutation
+ 2 caster and max caster level for conjuration spells
+ 2 attack and damage to your pets and hires
+ 5 double strike and AC for your pets and hires

Enhancements:

1st tier:

1/2/3 AC, attack, dodge and dodge cap for hires and pets
1/2/3 animal empathy + 5/10/15 positive spell power
1/2/3 heal, universal SP, damage for allies, and rank 3 +1 sneak attack dice for hires and pets
10% hitpoints for you and hires and pets as long as at least one pet is not standing still (2 EP)
+1/2/3 DR and 2/4/6 to trip, sunder for hires and pets

2nd tier:
Blood Moon Frenzy (from Nature Warrior tree)
Silver Moon Frenzy (when your hires or pets kill opponent you give +5 universal spellpower, 1% critical chance for spells and 1 attack and damage, stack 5 times)
expend use of wild empathy to give
SLA splinterbolt
+1/3/5 to saves for your hires and pets, rank 3 grants +1 stacking saves for you


3rd tier:
SLA fire seeds
your wild empathy regenerates, one per 2 mins
expend wild empathy to give +15/30% boost to damage and speed to hires and pets for 20 sec
+10 healing aplification and universal SP for you and you hires and pets as long as they are not stand still
whenever you or your hires or pets are damaged by some spell, you can get 5 spell power of that type, passive : +5 universal SP

4th tier:
SLA less vigor, mass
Spring Resurgence
can expend wild empathy to cast displacement on your hires and allies
Nature's mark: expend wild empathy to mark one target- all your hires and pets instantly attack him, and target gets -2 all stats, -20 fortification and attack speed
whenever you or your hires or pets are damaged by some spell, there is X% chance that X% of damage can be converted to temp HP or SP that lasts for Xsec, passive : +5 universal SP (say X is ok to be 10)

5th tier:
Crown of Summer (from Seson Herald. If casted on pets all gain benefits)
SLA vigor, mass
your pets get additional ring slot
+ 1 DC, caster and max caster for conjuration and transmutation spells
expand wild empathy to create sigil that heals your allies and damage opponent, similar as consecrating ground, lasts for 10 sec

Also, pets enhancement tree (its own, 2 pts per level should be reworked- trap, bluff, intimdiation doesn't work now. Heal from corpses should increase with level of pet).

BLAAAAAH! You're making me want to take a crack at a summoner tree, now. XD

I like the idea of almost every enhancement adding something to you, but also to your pets. I wonder if Turbine has the tech to increase the 'caster level' of your summoned monsters. That would be handy.