Half-elf or Human for a pure Ranger Tempest?

[Ligraph]

Been working on a Pure Tempest build for my final life (not that there's much to work on ), and I decided to look at Helf vs the default of Human.

So far, I like what I've found. For 11 AP, I get

• 1 Strength
• Human Damage Boost
• 2d6 Sneak Attack from Dilettante: Rogue and Improved Dilettante: Rogue
• Improved Recovery I
• And the best part: Sly Flourish: +0.5[W], reduces threat by 100, +1 Crit Range. On a 12s CD.

If there any any reasons to go human over Helf that I missed, please let me know. And the feat doesn't count. I have enough feats I'm taking Spring Attack.

[Qhualor]

I chose Helf and dilly Rogue, but for flavor reasons. Haven't spent any points in racial yet, but I plan to.

[mna]

Been working on a Pure Tempest build for my final life (not that there's much to work on ), and I decided to look at Helf vs the default of Human.

So far, I like what I've found. For 11 AP, I get

• 1 Strength
• Human Damage Boost
• 2d6 Sneak Attack from Dilettante: Rogue and Improved Dilettante: Rogue
• Improved Recovery I
• And the best part: Sly Flourish: +0.5[W], reduces threat by 100, +1 Crit Range. On a 12s CD.

If there any any reasons to go human over Helf that I missed, please let me know. And the feat doesn't count. I have enough feats I'm taking Spring Attack.

Some people really like the dragonmark of ddoor. And then there's "not having Helf" for a lot of people, including myself (at the moment, at least).

(BTW, is there a list somewhere on which ranged things work with repeaters, for the Arti dilettante? Sniper Shot at least is very nice but...)

[Grailhawk]

Human + Know the Angels is better.

2d6 Sneak Attack = 7 damage per hit base.
42 Int =16 mod ÷ 2 = 8 base damage per hit.

8 base damage scaling with crit and melee power is better then 7 damage scaling with 150% melee power.

I would say +6 base damage is better and that means your Int can go as low and 34 and still be better then helf with Rogue dilletante

[Eth]

Human + Know the Angels is better.

2d6 Sneak Attack = 7 damage per hit base.
42 Int =16 mod ÷ 2 = 8 base damage per hit.

8 base damage scaling with crit and melee power is better then 7 damage scaling with 150% melee power.

I would say +6 base damage is better and that means your Int can go as low and 34 and still be better then helf with Rogue dilletante

What if you go HElf and use the same AP setup as the human?
You are still ahead 1d6 sneak damage (Seems OP also forgot this. You get 1d6 just from picking the dilettante, without spending a single AP in enhancements).
The question would rather be if there's a heroic feat that is better than 1d6 sneak damage (guess weapon focus doesn't count since you can fit that in on both versions 3 times).

[unbongwah]

What if you go HElf and use the same AP setup as the human?

Except you can't: HE Dmg Boost costs 4 APs vs only 1 for human. 3 APs doesn't sound like much, but look at the Cuisinart; anywhere you drop 3 APs, you're either losing DPS or survivability bonuses. You could shortchange KtA by 2 pts, but I hate juggling short-term DPS boosts.

That said, minmaxing isn't everything and HE (or any other race) is a viable alternative to human for rgr. But it does involve tradeoffs.

[Grailhawk]

What if you go HElf and use the same AP setup as the human?
You are still ahead 1d6 sneak damage (Seems OP also forgot this. You get 1d6 just from picking the dilettante, without spending a single AP in enhancements).
The question would rather be if there's a heroic feat that is better than 1d6 sneak damage (guess weapon focus doesn't count since you can fit that in on both versions 3 times).

How are you going to fit KTA and 11 AP in Helf?

Tempest is 43 AP for capstone and Tier5 not counting Evasive Dance.
Stalker is 26 for Advanced Sneak Attack, Killer, and Survivalist III
Harper is 8 for Know the Angles
Leaves exactly 3 AP free to get Damage boost out of Helf you need 4 AP

I guess you could give up a rank of one of the Tempest Tier 5's Cuts maybe but is +1d6 SA better then 10 DS and MP when you are bursting? I don't think so.

DoD is kind of the same thing but probably the better choice then Cuts.

Also I'm pretty sure the defensive benefits for Toughness + Epic Toughness out weigh the offensive gains of 1d6 SA for the vast majority of Rangers.


Hell I question why he has Spring Attack and Mobility when Toughness are more useful, Ranger dosn't need those feats to get its dodge capped and does need all the mitigation/HP it can find.

[Eth]

Except you can't: HE Dmg Boost costs 4 APs vs only 1 for human. 3 APs doesn't sound like much, but look at the Cuisinart; anywhere you drop 3 APs, you're either losing DPS or survivability bonuses. You could shortchange KtA by 2 pts, but I hate juggling short-term DPS boosts.

That said, minmaxing isn't everything and HE (or any other race) is a viable alternative to human for rgr. But it does involve tradeoffs.

Right, fair point.
Don't know about the setup in the link.

I'd go:
42 tempest, 24 DWS, 10 harper, 4 racial for HElf.
42 tempest, 26 DWS, 9 harper, 3 racial for Human.

That trade-off would be:
1d6 sneak damage, 1 MP/RP/SP, +1 stat of choice vs. extra feat, 20 HealAmp, 4PRR, 20HP

Alternatively:
42 tempest, 26 DWS, 8 harper, 4 racial for HElf.
Then it's 1d6 sneak, +1 stat vs. extra feat, 20 HealAmp, +1 MP/RP/SP

Guess I'd personally pick human in that case, but it's pretty close.

[Holymunchkin]

Human + Know the Angels is better.

2d6 Sneak Attack = 7 damage per hit base.
42 Int =16 mod ÷ 2 = 8 base damage per hit.

8 base damage scaling with crit and melee power is better then 7 damage scaling with 150% melee power.

I would say +6 base damage is better and that means your Int can go as low and 34 and still be better then helf with Rogue dilletante

This comment neglects the cost of building int. 8 AP is not cheap. The gear set-up is not cheap. While leveling, it is worth 3-4 damage per hit. The ability costs spell points as well.
If you're talking about an AT CAP set-up then you're better off with a hide item or more defense. If you are dying in LE then you don't have enough defense. Am open to the argument about "someone else getting agro" but it is silly to suggest while leveling.

8 ap should be spent in the human tree. Just IMO though

KTA is not worth the bother
Neither is H-elf

MOARRRRR hjealing amp

--------
--------

Gear comparisons:

12 base
6 tome
7 aug
2 insightful aug
2 ship buff
1 exceptional
-->
30, modifier of 10, 5 damage

14 base
7 tome
14 item
2 insightful
2 spooky
2 ship buff
1 exceptional
-->
42, modifier of 16, 8 damage

-----------
-----------

[Eth]

How are you going to fit KTA and 11 AP in Helf?

Tempest is 43 AP for capstone and Tier5 not counting Evasive Dance.
Stalker is 26 for Advanced Sneak Attack, Killer, and Survivalist III
Harper is 8 for Know the Angles
Leaves exactly 3 AP free to get Damage boost out of Helf you need 4 AP

Tempest is 42, not 43?

[Basura_Grande]

Human, losing that feat is just a dumb idea.

[Grailhawk]

This comment neglects the cost of building int. 8 AP is not cheap. The gear set-up is not cheap. While leveling, it is worth 3-4 damage per hit. The ability costs spell points as well.
If you're talking about an AT CAP set-up then you're better off with a hide item or more defense. If you are dying in LE then you don't have enough defense. Am open to the argument about "someone else getting agro" but it is silly to suggest while leveling.

8 ap should be spent in the human tree. Just IMO though

What are you spending 8 AP on in human?

You can fit hide and still fit get a 34 Int.

14 Base
07 Tome
08 Augment slotted some where
02 Insight Augment
02 Ship
01 Ex Augment
34 Total +6 damage from KtA

All of that is cheep and easy to fit in for most builds or are you saying its hard to get augment?

I'm sorry but 2d6 sneak attack just isn't better then +6 or even +5 damage, and i just don't believe you can find any thing in human tree that's better then KtA.

Tell me where you spend 8 AP for more defense? I don't believe you can get enough out of Human or Helf to justify the loss of KtA.


Just to be clear I'm not saying Helf isn't an option is close enough to what Human does that its not a big deal but human is better.

[Grailhawk]

KTA is not worth the bother
Neither is H-elf

MOARRRRR hjealing amp

Full ****** on healing amp. No thanks Maximized CSW for 400-600 hp is enough for me. YMMV.

[unbongwah]

If you don't have Harper, HE can be a viable alternative to human if you're building around sneak atks as well as crit dmg. E.g.

HE Tempest
Ranger 20
True Neutral Half-Elf


Stats
               34pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength         8       +2       4: DEX
Dexterity       18       +2       8: DEX
Constitution    18       +3      12: DEX
Intelligence    10       +2      16: DEX
Wisdom           8       +2      20: DEX
Charisma         8       +2      24: DEX
                                 28: DEX

Feats

 1        : Precision
 1 HalfElf: Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue
 1 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
 3        : Dodge
 5 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Giant
 6        : Quicken Spell
 9        : Improved Critical: Slashing
10 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
12        : Empower Healing Spell
15        : Past Life: Rogue
15 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Construct
18        : Toughness
20 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Elemental
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Epic Toughness
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Epic Reflexes
28 Destiny: Elusive Target
29 Destiny: Embodiment of Order
30 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
30 Legend : Scion of: Ethereal Plane


Enhancements (80 AP)

Tempest (44 AP)

Shield of Whirling Steel, Tempest, Graceful Death, Deflect Arrows, Whirlwind, Dervish
Improved Reaction II, Whirling Blades
Improved Parry III, Improved Dodge II, Whirling Blades, Haste Boost III
Storm Dancer, Critical Mastery III, Whirling Blades
Storm Tempest, The Growing Storm III, Whirling Blades
Dual Perfection, Cuts: A Thousand Cuts III, Whirling Blades, Dance of Death III

Deepwood Stalker (26 AP)

Far Shot, Sneak Attack, Exposing Strike, Advanced Sneak Attack
Stealthy III, Tendon Cut III
Survivalist, Improved Weapon Finesse
Survivalist, Thrill of the Hunt III, Favored Hunter III
Survivalist, Killer III

Half-Elf (10 AP)

Versatile Nature, Human Dexterity, Human Damage Boost
Improved Dilettante: Rogue
Improved Recovery, Improved Dilettante: Rogue


Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought

Extra Action Boost III, Attack Boost III, Constitution
Damage Boost III, Constitution
Critical Damage III
Volcano's Edge
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz

Twists of Fate (35 fate points)

Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
Balanced Attacks (Tier 3 Primal)
Hail of Blows (Tier 2 Flowers)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)
Brace for Impact (Tier 1 Sentinel)

Sneak atks: 6d6 HE & DWS enhs (avg 21 pts of dmg) + 15 Sneak of Shadows + 45-ish SotEthereal Plane (Hide 135, which should be doable on DEX rgr build) = 81 pts of SA. Not sure how much SA you can add from gear now, but lets say +10 to make it 91 SA. Melee Power with ToEE set + max Blitz should be ~140; so 3.1 (210 "effective" MP) * 91 SA = 282 SA. [EDIT: 170 MP while 1000 Cuts active, so 3.55 * 91 = 323 SA during Cuts.] Between Exposing Strike and Imp Deception gear, I wouldn't expect it to be hard to keep mobs almost constantly vulnerable to SAs, too, so that should be plenty of extra DPS.

EDIT: obviously, you're no TWF Assassin in terms of total SA dmg; but a rog won't be spamming DoD to multi-hit mobs, will she?

[Holymunchkin]

In a discussion of defensive / offensive balance you have to have a context.

What is this tempest going to be doing?

1. If we are building in a vaccum for DPS then yes you should take KTA. (On a high fort target however, 18th core of deepwood is worth more.)
2. If you are building for easy leveling I would err on the side of defense: fast-leveling requires an aggressive playstyle if you are BB ee streaking.
3. If you want to run slayers and EH who the **** cares.
4. If you want to be successful in solo LE quests, and fulfill your party role in LE raids you need to have serious defense in addition to offense. When you have a single button heal for 1k cure serious, the game changes. When you have 1800 hp its a game changer. My comments about KTA reflect my experience with this content, and the value of the ability in lieu of that. Bang for buck it doesn't fit my perspective. Set-up on Live:

pure 20, human
12 AP human tree.
42 AP tempest.
26 AP deepwood. survivalist 3 / killer

level-ups in CON

Gear:
Light Sage armor (Dodge 15 / Parrying 7)
Boots of the Devil Commander (30prr)
Belt Legendary Greensteel: positive oppositions
Necklace Legendary Greensteel: negative oppositions. --> Swap insightful 7 doublestrike

Cloak: Mysterious cloak --> Swap Wolf cloak --> Swap Spellabsorb

Ring1: Strange tidings, swap dex14 then cloak to a piwafi
Ring2: Con of Resonance (Take the feywild feat for healing amp, sonic damage on hit)

Epic Ethereal bracers: deadly 10, ghostly
Epic Halyconia: Devotion / Devotion crit chance

Gloves: Randomgen healing amp 54, doublestrike 16

Trinket: eLitany

[Grailhawk]

2. If you are building for easy leveling I would err on the side of defense: fast-leveling requires an aggressive playstyle if you are BB ee streaking.

For EE BB you don't need 1k CSW, and can play very aggressively.

level-ups in CON

I honestly feel that's just trolling.

[Basura_Grande]

I honestly feel that's just trolling.

It's not, we'll explain why on TS if you want.

I wouldn't do this on every toon though.

[Holymunchkin]

For EE BB you don't need 1k CSW, and can play very aggressively.

I agree sorry if that wasn't clear.

I honestly feel that's just trolling.

Well I can't help that =p