Does multi-classing contribute to power creep?

[Elfishski]

Needed to add this. Being able to do everything isn't bad. Being able to do everything at the same time with 0 cost IS bad.

Multiclassing itself doesn't contribute to power-creep. What contributes to power creep are abilities (passive or active) that work multiplicatively together for a major effect:
Increase your damage by 100% for budget X. Total damage is 2x
Increase your attack speed by 100% for budget Y. Total damage is 2x
Increase your damage and attack speed both by 100% for budget X+Y. Total damage is 4x (instead of 3x).

Increase your hp by 100% for budget A. Total effective hp is 2x.
Increase your chance to be missed by 50% for budget B. Total effective hp is 2x.
Increase your hp by 100% and chance to be missed by 50% for budget A+B. Total effective hp is again 4x instead of 3x.

That's where power creep comes from. DDO has way too many such synergistic effects, not just 2 and 3 here and there.

So how do you "fix" that? Easy. Make higher values require higher investment. If +10 hp takes budget 2 on an item, +20 shouldn't take +4; it should take 5 or 6. If an attack with +1[W] takes 1 action point, then the same attack for +2[W] shouldn't take just another 1 action point, it should taken an extra 2. Not only that, but item budget availability on higher level items shouldn't explode as it does now.

I just want to quote this as I think it's a really good point. And get those multipliers together on defenses and DPS and we have the power creep problems we have now. Worse, the multiplicative abilities (+1 crit range, +10%HP, doubleshot, etc), are so much stronger at cap than the additive ones (+1damage, +10HP, etc), that they make the latter almost irrelevant at cap, and because they're so much stronger it's the multiplicative things being added to all the classes in each pass to make them catch up, and because the older abilities unique to each class are so much weaker than the new +1crit range etc, each class starts to feel more the same...

Multi-classing sometimes lets players get more stacking multiplicative effects for exponential power, but these days most classes have just as much exponential power increase in staying pure, so no, multi-classing isn't contributing to power creep, and really no need to constrain it further.

I also agree on your solution to that problem, increase cost to get those high multipliers, though that's easier said than done. Maybe in 3 years when they finish the current overpowering class pass on enhancements they can start the rebalancing that way (sigh).

[Hephaistor]

So according to you transforming unique game to mainstream where every builds is basicly is same with minor tweaking arround is way to go? Transforming game into race from start to end is reason why so many ppl left, there was no reason to work as a team to complete dungeons which is basic mechanic and most enjoyable part of DnD".

The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.
-Gary Gygax

DDO is far away from "mainstream where every builds is basically is same". When I started DDO there where only a few "top/high power" builds at a time and a lot of "veteran" players had exactly the same build and the same gear. The variety of "endgame" builds had never been broader than today, a lot of classes and various combinations can be used in all contend now. Therefore I don’t get is your argument that multicasting should be more restricted to make sure not every build is the same. Like it is now pure classes AND splashes both are valid options for all kinds of players. Kill the splashes and multicasting will be a “casual" thing and the powergamers will run pure builds. How does this help build diversity?

And if you are quoting Gary you should add that your quote relates to a round of Pen and Paper with friends, quite the opposite of an anonymous online game. As far as I understood Mr. Gayax it was important to him that the rules didn’t limit the fantasy and fun of the players. He reminded Dungeon Masters that they should not tell the players how to play their heroes. If a friend wanted to play a Cowboy Gary helped him to make one and didn't shool him about the rules. It seems a bit odd to me that you cite Gary to support a “stricter rules for mutliclassing” point. I think he would be all “let him play a dwarfen warbard tank that levitates in a semitransparent sphere of magical iron as long as he keeps singing if it fits the background story. May be he gets eaten by the celling, one day.. “ Crazy stuff..like.. having fun. you know?

The “race from start to end” thing was something the players did, not the Developers. Compeltionist is only a small bonus and you have to use a feat slot for it. The usefulness of epic compeltionist got relativized by the free fate slot at level 30. You don’t need past lives to do anything in the game and most builds only benefit from a hand full past lives anyway. You can’t MAKE people play the game like you think it would be most fun. “Friends don’t let friends solo” failed and it won’t come back. But you can drive more players away by changing basic things over and over again because you will never get to the point everyone is happy but you always lose people along the way. Try looking onto DDO less form a “this should be done this way” perspective but more from a “how to keep people happy” angle. I say: Most players on the servers don’t give penny about how rewarding splashes are but quite a lot hate it when the game messes with their builds again without obvious reason.

[Hephaistor]

You don't really believe that those players were here because they liked the imbalance, do you? My anecdotal experience is that players were more plentiful back then because DDO had more depth in its gameplay, instead of the current dps zergfest.

Nope, I say most didn't care and don't care now. People play for various reasons like contend, character building or challenge. But only a few need 100% balanced classes to enjoy that. The Paladins endless quest for class-balancing isn't helping the game. Sure, some gross imbalances needed to be addressed and some minor changes are needed in future but I see no point in this "OMG those multiclass characters are to strong" thing. Because there are pure builds that are just as powerful and I am against changing game basics for minor balancing improvements. (Up to debate if it even was an improvement at all.) If it was fixed they will just find something new to whine about. We are running in circles here, I could search the forum and find all the "splashes are to powerful" posts of the past. And yet, dispite years of claims how overpowerd multiclassing is there are still as many pure builds out there, funny hu? New quests, raids, classes and races are what can keep DDO alive. Killing build options isn't. And I don't even play much multiclass builds; I just don't want to see people leave over pointless stuff again.

WHEEE. WE DID IT, ALL CLASSES BALANCEND! NOT ENOUGH PLAYERS LEFT TO RUN SERVES, BUT ANYWAY: OPERATION SUCCESFUL, PATIENT DEAD.

[AzureDragonas]

DDO is far away from "mainstream where every builds is basically is same". When I started DDO there where only a few "top/high power" builds at a time and a lot of "veteran" players had exactly the same build and the same gear. The variety of "endgame" builds had never been broader than today, a lot of classes and various combinations can be used in all contend now. Therefore I don’t get is your argument that multicasting should be more restricted to make sure not every build is the same. Like it is now pure classes AND splashes both are valid options for all kinds of players. Kill the splashes and multicasting will be a “casual" thing and the powergamers will run pure builds. How does this help build diversity?

And if you are quoting Gary you should add that your quote relates to a round of Pen and Paper with friends, quite the opposite of an anonymous online game. As far as I understood Mr. Gayax it was important to him that the rules didn’t limit the fantasy and fun of the players. He reminded Dungeon Masters that they should not tell the players how to play their heroes. If a friend wanted to play a Cowboy Gary helped him to make one and didn't shool him about the rules. It seems a bit odd to me that you cite Gary to support a “stricter rules for mutliclassing” point. I think he would be all “let him play a dwarfen warbard tank that levitates in a semitransparent sphere of magical iron as long as he keeps singing if it fits the background story. May be he gets eaten by the celling, one day.. “ Crazy stuff..like.. having fun. you know?

The “race from start to end” thing was something the players did, not the Developers. Compeltionist is only a small bonus and you have to use a feat slot for it. The usefulness of epic compeltionist got relativized by the free fate slot at level 30. You don’t need past lives to do anything in the game and most builds only benefit from a hand full past lives anyway. You can’t MAKE people play the game like you think it would be most fun. “Friends don’t let friends solo” failed and it won’t come back. But you can drive more players away by changing basic things over and over again because you will never get to the point everyone is happy but you always lose people along the way. Try looking onto DDO less form a “this should be done this way” perspective but more from a “how to keep people happy” angle. I say: Most players on the servers don’t give penny about how rewarding splashes are but quite a lot hate it when the game messes with their builds again without obvious reason.

To update your response about build whatever you want, there are still question left to me. If that was actualy true and if there was in same gruop he leads other players, who wanna do just traps/assisinate tank/heal others, so becouse somone wanna play "i can do EVERYTHING" build woudn't it be wise to "limit" that person build that he can do all stuff arround, but it doenst mean it can as near as good as somone who plays/builds for certain goal in mid. If that was case in game, it would mean that 1 rog level shouldnt be enough to disable most of game traps, and pure fighter shoudn't be capable of taking care of himself without a seriosu investment don't you think? It's not the case you talk about versality of freedom to build while i talk about monipolization of roles. Is there any particular reason, why players should be able to takeover roles of other classes with low investment at all? Simple example of new Tempest and paladin. Think this way there is:
Pure ranger tempest
15 paladin/5 ranger

Why by picking only 5 levels of ranger a tanky class can take over most of stuff except cores from that class? If 5 levels to get best of ranger is all it takes to "steal" best parts of tree and apply to another class which is more tanky/better saves/better heals what is point of tempest at all? Same takeover goes in many ways, by picking 5 rog levels artificers now are mechanics, by picking 3 pal/fighter levels now build is tanky etc.

I lead to a point where limiting options of how much you can access more precisly to levels, makes better environment for other classes when theyr "unique" abilities dont get taken by others and raised to near max level while "solving issues"

By simplying even drawback of trapping skills investing by half {twice efforts to lvl} is not legit anymore. Highest level traps should be disabled by highest level trappers, not becouse somone picked 1 level or rog and did "some investment". Same goes for each class strongest part of class, it shoudn't be accesable by picking couple levels and spending couple points.

[nokowi]

My multiclass builds are not more powerful than my pure builds. Some are more versatile -like my trapping bard- but that is WAI imho.
The new capstones are that powerful that limiting the higher enhancement tiers to heavy splashes might kill multiclassing completely.

And before a higher minimum level for the higher tiers of enhancements could be introduced some trees had to be revamped. The only reason why you can play a halfway useable melee cleric is that a 17/3 or 15/5 split with fighter or paladin let you spend most of your action points into Vanguard and Defender. If you were limited to warpriest, radiant servant and divine disciple an INT based harper cleric would be the way to go for a battlecleric, yuck..

Even IF higher minimum level for enhancements would be an improvement the legitimate rage of the players running those builds since update 19 would make it a bad idea anyway.

If none of your multiclass builds are not more powerful, you don't know how to build a toon. Adding more character power in capstones just made the game even easier. What we needed was some common sense in the multiclass synergies.

My suggestion for higher levels for enhancements is more of a hindsight is 20/20 argument. Its too bad enhancements were not implemented in a more sensible fashion. The amount of dev time needed to balance this game is a result of the poor decision to allow such easy multiclassing. I would not recommend that devs nerf all existing builds to fix this, as the loss of players would be too big. I recommend they spend a lot of Turbine $$ to make the broken system they have work as well as possible, and in the future that they think seriously about whether giving every character access to the same abilities has been a good idea.

[Hephaistor]

Think this way there is:
Pure ranger tempest
15 paladin/5 ranger

Why by picking only 5 levels of ranger a tanky class can take over most of stuff except cores from that class? If 5 levels to get best of ranger is all it takes to "steal" best parts of tree and apply to another class which is more tanky/better saves/better heals what is point of tempest at all? Same takeover goes in many ways, by picking 5 rog levels artificers now are mechanics, by picking 3 pal/fighter levels now build is tanky etc.

I lead to a point where limiting options of how much you can access more precisly to levels, makes better environment for other classes when theyr "unique" abilities dont get taken by others and raised to near max level while "solving issues"

By simplying even drawback of trapping skills investing by half {twice efforts to lvl} is not legit anymore. Highest level traps should be disabled by highest level trappers, not becouse somone picked 1 level or rog and did "some investment". Same goes for each class strongest part of class, it shoudn't be accesable by picking couple levels and spending couple points.

I have a pure DEX-based tempest, it shines when I don't have aggro or when mobs use a lot of attacks I can evade. My guildy has such a 15/5 paladin split and he shines when he has the aggro and mobs use a lot of physical attacks. Both builds are at the same power level and both come with advantages and disadvantages. I see no reason to nerf my guildies build at all. He traded the paladin capstone for the tempest multi-target attack but he doesn’t get the cool tempest cores or Evasion. Seems quite balanced to me and I don’t see so many of those splashes anyway. Same with the trapping: You can trade the capstone and a lot of skill points (double price) for trapping, I don’t think a lot of players have an issue with that. So why change it and risk to annoy people for no gain? I get the feeling we are playing different games, I don’t see those problems at all when I play DDO, perhaps those are “forum only” problems?

[nokowi]

I have a pure DEX-based tempest, it shines when I don't have aggro or when mobs use a lot of attacks I can evade. My guildy has such a 15/5 paladin split and he shines when he has the aggro and mobs use a lot of physical attacks. Both builds are at the same power level and both come with advantages and disadvantages. I see no reason to nerf my guildies build at all. He traded the paladin capstone for the tempest multi-target attack but he doesn’t get the cool tempest cores or Evasion. Seems quite balanced to me and I don’t see so many of those splashes anyway. Same with the trapping: You can trade the capstone and a lot of skill points (double price) for trapping, I don’t think a lot of players have an issue with that. So why change it and risk to annoy people for no gain? I get the feeling we are playing different games, I don’t see those problems at all when I play DDO, perhaps those are “forum only” problems?

Its great you and your friend are similarly effective, but that tells us nothing, and can't be generalized to apply to all multiclassing.

How does your build compare to the top build?

[Hephaistor]

Edit: Tired of reasoning here. People see problems I don't get. Just checked the "who" tab for all those powercreeping mulit-classers and couln't find them. But go on, make people re-roll because everybody knows people like to reroll their builds. The servers are full and DDO hasn't any problems with people leaving.

[AzureDragonas]

I have a pure DEX-based tempest, it shines when I don't have aggro or when mobs use a lot of attacks I can evade. My guildy has such a 15/5 paladin split and he shines when he has the aggro and mobs use a lot of physical attacks. Both builds are at the same power level and both come with advantages and disadvantages. I see no reason to nerf my guildies build at all. He traded the paladin capstone for the tempest multi-target attack but he doesn’t get the cool tempest cores or Evasion. Seems quite balanced to me and I don’t see so many of those splashes anyway. Same with the trapping: You can trade the capstone and a lot of skill points (double price) for trapping, I don’t think a lot of players have an issue with that. So why change it and risk to annoy people for no gain? I get the feeling we are playing different games, I don’t see those problems at all when I play DDO, perhaps those are “forum only” problems?

And i see problems when:
* Trapers are not needed, end game traps are done by druids with a single level of trapper.
* Tanks are more for flavor in EE raids like wyrm, most classes can tank with ease
* Healers barely needed in most cases raise/cocon is enough to replace them entirely

and so on.

Now about your and your guildie example. in perfectly describes that both of you can do lots of damage, but he can sustain way better than you, meaning if you were separated he could survive/do way more than you while doing as good as your dps. let's pish even further your ranger would be even weaker, becouse you would need to heal, and wont be able to sustian as long as he = less dps than he. So in the end by picking 5 ranger levels on paladin he made better tempest than your pure is, while by normal logic he should be more tanky as paladin but lack dps as you have? Won't you agree?

[nokowi]

I play and test most of the fotm builds and I don't only look for them in this forum.

Warlock: Pure and splash fine up to Legendary Elite, I prefer pure here because I can get Edwards to work in engame.
Paladin: Depending on role splash or pure are better, those 15/5 splits are only ahead when killing trash
Mechanic: Works both..
Shuris: Splash may be a bit ahead but pure is rock solid too.
Barbarian: Splash? Yeah..
Trees/wolf: Splash ahead in exploits

So in your own experience, about 1/2 of multiclass builds are better, and 1/2 of pure/multiclass are similar.

It looks like devs still need to spend more time balancing multiclass builds...

I have posted why this is the case (easy access to enhancements with low investment). I have recommended continuing with a broken system (it can eventually get fixed if devs never add new classes, with new synergy problems). it's unfortunate devs went down this road, but hindsight is 20/20.

[Pnumbra]

No, hell no, and please stop trying to ruin the game to "fix" things.

This thread scares the livin s*** out of me. The last time I saw a thread like this is was 6 or 7 people talking about how wonderful it would be to nerf Improved critical and just solve all the games balance problems in one swack. I thought the thread was silly and that the Dev's wouldn't possibly give it credence, for surely the massive availability of eleventy billion attacks per second + a dozen affixes stacked up was the main issue with OP melee in the game (TWF, Wolf form, Fury shot, Shuricannons, and repeaters being what they are)... and so I moved on just like a lot of other people dismissing the thread. Big mistake... the Dev's don't know whats overpowering content so they went ahead and nerfed primarilly flavor builds, and S&B.

I have the same initial "they can't possibly take these 4 guys serious" reaction to this thread but it's obviously dangerous to ignore terrible ideas on the forums, so please stop trying to call the games strength "a problem". There's no problem here you are solving. Just arbitrary limits that make some players feel better because they don't want anyone else to have a better build than them.

To the OP, Multiclassing has been a integral part of D&D for about 3 times longer than DDO has existed for... Your perception of D&D being about pure classes couldn't be more wrong.

Interesting, seems you have an overabundance of hyper emotion about the subject. I have never seen a topic solicit such a primal response. You should chew on your own words, as some of your threads fall into this self-prescribed emotional silo.

It doesn't matter how long MC has been around in PnP. I am addressing its roll and use in DDO. I have been playing D&D for a very long time - decades, and the game is not bothered by various forms of inquiry. Shockingly, not everyone aggress with you, MC in DDO has its affects and I am asking what forum posters think. Notice, I have not challenged their opinions or attempted to persuade them one way or another. Your zealous rejection of the argument is noted.

[Raithe]

it's unfortunate devs went down this road, but hindsight is 20/20.

Issues in DDO cannot be reduced to falling under the label of "multi-classing." These are some of the major issues in DDO, historically:

1) Wall of Fire (at one point from purchasable scrolls)
2) Charms
3) Ranger/Monks (Exploiters) in the first Shroud era (super high AC plus evasion meant you simply didn't take damage)
4) Instakill from various sources including extremely high damage (i.e. furyshot)
5) Shiradi crowd control effects
6) Druid wolf form and Avatar of Nature "bugs"
7) Warlocks

None of these have anything to do with multi-classing, and they are all severe issues that basically cripple the game from any semblance of legitimate gaming.

DDO is a complete mess. You can't point at a plate of horrid-tasting spaghetti and say it's just the noodles, or the sauce. It's everything. In DDO you have to design your own plate, or go home.

[Gremmlynn]

In my own opinion I don't feel that multiclassing contributes to "power creep" One of the greatest things about this game is the great diversity you can put into your character. I mostly like to play pure builds but there has been a few times I have taken a level or 2 of rogue just for trapping/locks/secret doors. Who knows there could have been a chest with a legendary victory in it that I would have otherwise missed out on had I of not had a few levels of a rogue?

That tells me that you just don't multi for power. The issue I see with multi-classing, until the newer level 18/20 cores, non-caster classes had little reason not to splash. While casters get more and higher level spells, non-casters really get very little at the higher levels and are very front loaded. Also, little of what they get at the lower levels is based on class levels.

[nokowi]

Issues in DDO cannot be reduced to falling under the label of "multi-classing." These are some of the major issues in DDO, historically:

1) Wall of Fire (at one point from purchasable scrolls)
2) Charms
3) Ranger/Monks (Exploiters) in the first Shroud era (super high AC plus evasion meant you simply didn't take damage)
4) Instakill from various sources including extremely high damage (i.e. furyshot)
5) Shiradi crowd control effects
6) Druid wolf form and Avatar of Nature "bugs"
7) Warlocks

None of these have anything to do with multi-classing, and they are all severe issues that basically cripple the game from any semblance of legitimate gaming.

DDO is a complete mess. You can't point at a plate of horrid-tasting spaghetti and say it's just the noodles, or the sauce. It's everything. In DDO you have to design your own plate, or go home.

Yes I can, and I did.

There are issues purely related to multiclassing. One of them is easy access to enhancements with little investment. Its tough to fix one class (look at all those you mentioned) without harming others, because they all share the same easy-access abilities. 10k stars and manyshot is a prime example.

If enhancement abilities were tiered higher, it would be much easier to fix problems.

[Wipey]

Power "creep" had always been here, since bard "pass" it's been "power speed of light".

Mutliclassing doesn't matter. What are the top builds anyway, 20 ranger blitz tempest, 20 EA or Shiradi lock, 20 blitzer mechanic, 20 blitzer barb ? 20 blitzer pally or 20 bard is still solid.

[Basura_Grande]

Easy access to tier 1-5 abilities causes balance issues. Multiclass itself is not the problem.

Bump the tiers up to higher minimum level and balance would be as simple as moving something OP from tier 3 to tier 4.

Tier 5: 12 levels in that class
Tier 4: 8 levels in that class
Tier 3: 5 levels in that class
Tier 2: 3 levels in that class
Tier 1: 1 level in that class

This is probably what should have happened in the first place, but implementing this now might cause a riot.

[kemetka]

Power "creep" had always been here, since bard "pass" it's been "power speed of light".

Mutliclassing doesn't matter. What are the top builds anyway, 20 ranger blitz tempest, 20 EA or Shiradi lock, 20 blitzer mechanic, 20 blitzer barb ? 20 blitzer pally or 20 bard is still solid.

i was in a group where 2 20 blitzer monks made the rest of the 12 man raid group look like pikers in a LE tempest spine.
not a pure build but 18/2 rogue/arti mechanical fury is excessivly powerful. I just happen to like having a dog to pull levers and the passive boosts from the rune arm more than the rogue's hipflask.

add to that 20 palemaster in magister is still powerful with the recent feat changes.

have yet to make it back to epics on my druid build that foucses on summons pets and hirelings so i dont know how well that will perform in epics after the changes, still jokes all over heroics though even as a first life no buff test run.

[nokowi]

This is probably what should have happened in the first place, but implementing this now might cause a riot.

I agree.

Moving forward, the lesson is that sharing the same abilities (for little/no cost) between everyone causes balance problems.

Ignore the players who demand everything, and make players pay a price (what will you give up of X to get Y). This creates build diversity (more so than sharing abilities for free) and helps with balance.

Tier 5 at level 5 made the build cost so cheap that there is no easy way to adjust balance.

[kemetka]

Tier 5 at level 5 made the build cost so cheap that there is no easy way to adjust balance.

the proposed level req change would do it honeslty, or at least take a very determined step in the right direction.

[Basura_Grande]

I agree.

Moving forward, the lesson is that sharing the same abilities (for little/no cost) between everyone causes balance problems.

Ignore the players who demand everything, and make players pay a price (what will you give up of X to get Y). This creates build diversity (more so than sharing abilities for free) and helps with balance.

Tier 5 at level 5 made the build cost so cheap that there is no easy way to adjust balance.

I think with the recently "balanced" glasses having such ridiculously good capstones this will soon regulate itself.

Looking at the current batch of "broken" builds EDs working in ways that aren't WAI or shouldn't be is far more of an issue than multiclassing.