Any point in a dwarven cleric?

[jcmcminis]

I was thinking about playing a dwarf warpriest cleric, but after looking at the tree and it bonuses to the religion's chosen weapons and with there being no religion choice for dwarves that gives dwarven clerics proficiency and bonuses with either war hammers (I would prefer) or axes, both of which can be given bonuses from the dwarf tree. Is there any point or should I just say do a different tree for cleric and just pay the proficiency for say war hammer and just go with the racial tree bonuses?

[zwiebelring]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Dwarf

Dwarves get the martialm proficiency by a racial feat. There is the racial enhancements to boost axe damage. Some minor multiclassing in Ftr and/or Pal might be necessary for melee dps. But a dwarven melee Clr seems viable as it is.

Also style. Not many dwarven melee Clrs running around it seems. In any way you were a different kind of unique .

[jcmcminis]

Thanks for the advice. I was unaware that all dwarves started with the axe prof in the game. In the pen and paper version they had to have at least a +1 bab to get the prof for free. I am a very casual player who plays more for fun that number crunching for dps. Maybe I will make one after all.

[dontmater]

Flower cant be wrong

[Jiirix]

Thanks for the advice. I was unaware that all dwarves started with the axe prof in the game.

They don't AFAIK. Pure dwarfen clerics can use all simple weapons and their diety weapon (longsword or longbow because DDO).
With some points in UMD masters touch scrolls let you can use any one-handed martial weapon and dwarfen axes. Sames goes for clerics with at least one level of fighter/paladin/ranger/barbarian.

If you don't want to lose the mass heal spell a cleric17/figther or paladin 3 split works good, for more melee and less healing/buffing deeper splahes are fine too. What can't be done imho is a casting+melee hybrid and because of that going pure clerics won't get you much.

My raidhealer+melee cleric used this setup, dwarf wouldn't change much.

Warpriest Vanguard Cleric
17/3 Cleric/Paladin Lawful Good Human
Level Order
1. Paladin . . . . 6. Cleric. . . . .11. Cleric. . . . .16. Cleric
2. Cleric . . . . .7. Cleric . . . . 12. Cleric . . . . 17. Cleric
3. Cleric . . . . .8. Paladin . . . .13. Cleric. . . . .18. Cleric
4. Paladin . . . . 9. Cleric. . . . .14. Cleric. . . . .19. Cleric
5. Cleric . . . . 10. Cleric . . . . 15. Cleric . . . . 20. Cleric


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 16. . . .+3. . . .4: STR
Dexterity . . . 10. . . .+3. . . .8: STR
Constitution. . 16. . . .+3. . . 12: STR
Intelligence. . 10. . . .+3. . . 16: STR
Wisdom. . . . . 10. . . .+3. . . 20: CON
(if you had a better CON tome you could swap the level ups from CON to STR)
Charisma. . . . 16. . . .+3. . . 24: CON
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: STR

Skills
. . . . . P .C .C .P. C. C. C. P .C .C .C .C .C .C .C .C .C .C .C .C
. . . . . 1 .2 .3 .4. 5. 6. 7. 8 .9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 4 .1 .1 . . 2. 1. 1. . .1 .1 .1 .2 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 .23
Intim . . 4 . . . .3. . . . . .4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Spellcr . . .2 .2 . . 1. 2. 3. . .1 .1 .1 . . 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 21
Perform . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
Tumble. . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .12 .3 .3 .3. 3. 3. 4. 4 .4 .4 .4 .4 .4 .4 .4 .4 .4 .4 .4 .4


Feats
.1. . . . : Shield Mastery
.1 Human. : Improved Shield Bash
.1 Deity. : Follower of: Sovereign Host
.3. . . . : Toughness
.6. . . . : Maximize Spell
.9. . . . : Quicken Spell
.9 Deity. : Unyielding Sovereignty
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
18. . . . : Power Attack
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Epic Toughness
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Elusive Target


Enhancements (80 AP)

Human (3 AP)

• Damage Boost, Strength

Warpriest (25 AP)

• Smite Foe, Resilience of Battle, Sanctuary, Blur
  
  1. Toughness III, Sacred Touch I
  2. Smite Weakness, Wall of Steel III, Inflame III
  3. Inflame: Energy Absorption III, Strength
  4. Ameliorating Strike, Strength

Knight of the Chalice (22 AP)

• Slayer of Evil, Courage of Heaven
  
  1. Extra Turning III, Extra Smite I
  2. Divine Might III, Exalted Cleave III, Melee Power Boost III
  3. Vigor of Life, Strength

Sacred Defender (13 AP)

• Holy Bastion, Sacred Defense
  
  1. Durable Defense III, Sacred Armor Mastery I
  2. Resilient Defense III, Sacred Shield Mastery I
  3. Tenacious Defense III

Vanguard (17 AP)

• To the Fore!, Shield Combat I
  
  1. Shield Specialization, No Weakness II
  2. Brutality III, Stunning Shield III, Missile Shield III
  3. Strength

Destiny (24 AP)
Divine Crusader

1. Endless Turning I, Purge the Wicked, Strength
2. Consecration III, Flames of Purity I
3. Sacred Ground, Blessed Blades
4. No Regret, Crusade
5. Castigation, Heavenly Presence, Celestial Champion
6. Strike Down

Twists of Fate

1. Sence Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
2. Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)
3. Legendary Tactics (Tier 1 Dreadnought)

If you splah deeper you can get the tier5 from vanguard or defender, best thing from warpriest for me was the tier 4 free mass cure "Ameliorating Strike", didn't bother with the tier5 in this underperforming tree.

[cdbd3rd]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Dwarf

Dwarves get the martialm proficiency by a racial feat. There is the racial enhancements to boost axe damage. Some minor multiclassing in Ftr and/or Pal might be necessary for melee dps. But a dwarven melee Clr seems viable as it is....

Need to take a second look at that feat. The Dwarven Axe becomes a Martial weapon for Dwarves, but you'll still need to splash at least 1 level of a class that gets martial weapons proficiency.


(edit: As Jiirix covered in his first paragragh. Darn habit of posting before finishing the page.)

[JOTMON]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Dwarf

Dwarves get the martialm proficiency by a racial feat. There is the racial enhancements to boost axe damage. Some minor multiclassing in Ftr and/or Pal might be necessary for melee dps. But a dwarven melee Clr seems viable as it is.

Also style. Not many dwarven melee Clrs running around it seems. In any way you were a different kind of unique .

Dwarves only get the proficiency if their class supports Martial weapons.

Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven axe as martial weapons (meaning you class needs martial weapons to gain Dwarven axe by default, Rogues for example, do not get martial weapons by default), rather than exotic weapons.

A cleric does not have Martial Weapon Proficiency to start. Would either need to take the feat, or splash a melee class.

Need to take a second look at that feat. The Dwarven Axe becomes a Martial weapon for Dwarves, but you'll still need to splash at least 1 level of a class that gets martial weapons proficiency.
(edit: As Jiirix covered in his first paragragh. Darn habit of posting before finishing the page.)

Doh.. same...

[NabeGewell]

I don't get why you even want to go melee with a cleric nowadays anyway, can just go max wisdom/constitution and instakill stuff with spells or finish them off with mediocre but double ranged sla's from 'Divine disciple' that will do harm for almost every enemy in the game( refering to 'light spec' ofc). Where if you go melee you'll have to gimp out other stats to qualify for some melee feats, you won't do as much damage as a barb or pali so dr breakers will be pretty mandatory and will probably still be treated as a restoration/deathward dispencery in tougher raids if you even plan to do those. Also when in close combat you need the extra beef, which clerics' dont get for granted and you're right - 'Warpriest' tree is pretty much a joke .

If going caster type you get the benefit of not having to be in combat and deal with some mobs before they even get to you. The class definetely has it's problems but with minor effort in gear that would make your sla's like 'Energy burst', 'Avengng light' etc. worthwile to use starting from L20. While obiously not a speedruner type a 2nd heroic tr pure cleric dwarf is definetely durable enough to solo EE's including some raids without pots or game store consumables.

if you realy want to use dem' hammers can make use of that dwarf racial tree and pick up 'Throw your weight around' which will benefit from your constitution modifier to damage(will still need strength for hit), so you can just spend enough AP in there and pic up healing aura from 'Radiant servant', possibly max out constitution, some strength for power attack, cleave requirements rest to wisdom probably for extra sp (taking 'Endless turning' will make turns regenrate, personaly giving me a reson to dump charisma).

NOTE: being a dwarf does not qualify you for dwarwen axe(exotic weapon) or warhammer proficiencies, only option to add bonus damage via racial tree, you will need to splash a class with martial weapon proficiency or spend a feat to remove the -4 hit penalty.

I barely scratched the surface here, but if ya going max wisdom/constitution sla caster type there're fewer oportunities to mess up.

[unbongwah]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...e-Cleric-Build

Dwarf variant gives up -2 CHA, extra feat, racial Dmg boost, and +10% heal amp, while gaining...not much, frankly. +2 base CON, of course, and technically you can spend more APs on dwarf racial enhancements, but that means giving up APs elsewhere.

That said, one way of looking at it is (A) any race which spends 32+ APs into Radiant Servant will make a good healer while (B) conventional battlecleric melee DPS is so far behind the "real" DPS classes (i.e., barb, pally, etc.) that a non-human BC isn't much worse than human BC; so you might as well play the race you like rather than the "optimal" one (human).

[zwiebelring]

Need to take a second look at that feat. The Dwarven Axe becomes a Martial weapon for Dwarves, but you'll still need to splash at least 1 level of a class that gets martial weapons proficiency.


(edit: As Jiirix covered in his first paragragh. Darn habit of posting before finishing the page.)

I edited the post after doublechecking if dwarves got racial bonuses for axes or not .

Anyways, Master's Touch should work as well (should!, I actually don't know but since daxes are martial weapons when dwarves wield them, that spell should provide proficiency) so no multiclassing is needed at all. Just annoying rebuffing.

@topic:
I once played a 2 Rog/1 Ftr/ 17 Clr Warpriest. For heavy armor use just switch 2 Rog for 2 Pal.

[axel15810]

If we're talking about a mix/max perspective human is the better choice for a melee cleric. They get a lot more (and better) free stuff and low hanging fruit. Human damage boost, a feat, cheap 1st tier of heal amp, ect. Dwarves only get a little extra starting CON, 10HP for 1 AP in the racial tree, but most of their enhancements are much too expensive to be worth it, especially the dwarven weapon training enhancements. Dwarves also get -2 CHA.

If you want to go Dwarf for flavor it certainly won't break your build though. You'll just be a little suboptimal. I'll be honest though losing human damage boost is a significant loss for your burst DPS. You lose that great synergy it has with haste boost. On the other hand if you're the type of person who hates clicking action boosts all the time you might be OK with that. If I'm remembering correctly I believe there's also an ED ability that can replace it though so it won't be as big of a deal in epics.

[Hephaistor]

If you want to spend your SP mostly on healing a raid or group battle ceric is the way to go imho. Resource management is easier as you attacks don’t use up your spellpoints and many things that boost your DPS also boost your survivability, like Legendary Shield Mastery and the Vanguard tree.

If you want to play a cleric and don’t want to focus on healing but just want to throw a heal to a party member when needed you better roll a bard or paladin and use cure spells, Renewal, Cocoon, Lay on and Hands. Bards can even get the regular heal spell, way more fun than a cleric until they get their shiny new trees too.

[FranOhmsford]

I realise S+B Cleric is supposed to be all sorts of gimp but how about:

Dwarf Hammer Spec.
13 Cleric {Radiant Aura and up to 7th Lvl Spells}, 5 Paladin {Sacred Defender}, 2 Fighter {3 Extra Feats if you incl. Tower Shield}?

[zwiebelring]

If we're talking about a mix/max perspective human is the better choice for a melee cleric. They get a lot more (and better) free stuff and low hanging fruit. Human damage boost, a feat, cheap 1st tier of heal amp, ect. Dwarves only get a little extra starting CON, 10HP for 1 AP in the racial tree, but most of their enhancements are much too expensive to be worth it, especially the dwarven weapon training enhancements. Dwarves also get -2 CHA.

If you want to go Dwarf for flavor it certainly won't break your build though. You'll just be a little suboptimal. I'll be honest though losing human damage boost is a significant loss for your burst DPS. You lose that great synergy it has with haste boost. On the other hand if you're the type of person who hates clicking action boosts all the time you might be OK with that. If I'm remembering correctly I believe there's also an ED ability that can replace it though so it won't be as big of a deal in epics.

I agree.

I focused my melee Clr on CHA for Divine Might despitebeing Dwarf (tomes make up a lot regarding this, so depending on tomes available, -2 CHA isn't a problem). Else I used the CHA based build as Turn Undead machine. I only played him till lvl. 20. So for endgame I don't know but for heroics with Cannith Crafting I was fine. It's convinience really. Action Boosts are annoying for me but Dwarf gives you permenant bonuses to axes. If you take the melee dps into epics you can compensate by LD destiny. Even splashing Ftr unlocks haste or dmg boost, no?

But in general I think feats got a higher priority than racial enhancements if you want to make melee dps builds out of classes without many feats available, like Clr. Human is one of the best choices for those charcaters.

[Renvar]

Outside of the Sun Elf Morninglord (Which, oddly has Int bonuses but the AP tree is otherwise very good for divines) and Halfling dragon mark enhancements for some free heals, there isn't a race that lends itself to divines at all. Dwarf is about as good (or bad) as any other.

A melee cleric (pure) will be a bit low on the DPS scale, but be very difficult to kill. A 5-7 level splash with pally and/or fighter will get you the DPS you are looking for, while sacrificing a lot of higher spells, that, if you don't have high wisdom for DC casting, won't be missed all that much anyways.

[Ginarrbrik]

my caster cleric is a dwarf because dwarves are good at not dying and a dead cleric is a useless cleric. granted, there used to be more reasons to be a dwarf cleric. but I mostly just like dwarves. there's certainly nothing wrong with dwarf as a cleric race.

[Hafeal]

A melee cleric (pure) will be a bit low on the DPS scale, but be very difficult to kill.

I am still running my Dwarven Cleric from 2006 - no TRs, no eTRS, just capped him at 30. He has about half his destinies done.
I am trying to cap out his favor (just cleared 4700 or so - man, what a slog).

With exception to the occasional crown 1 shot, he is nearly unkillable in anything below EE. In EE, he is a fine healer / buffer / aoe (Blade barrier, consecration) addition, but, end game raids can be very difficult with low dps party mates.

I was thinking about maybe, maybe, doing 1 eTR on him and losing a metamagic for Dwarven Axes because he does not get it. Just for fun.

Long and short is that a Dwarven Cleric is fine, just fine as DDOTalk71 references.

[unbongwah]

I was thinking about maybe, maybe, doing 1 eTR on him and losing a metamagic for Dwarven Axes because he does not get it. Just for fun.

If you wish to stay pure cleric, there's no need to squander a feat; as a dwarf you can invest in UMD and use Master's Touch scrolls to grant d.axe prof.

That said, Warpriest is in dire need of buffage before it could be considered a "serious" melee DPS PrE.

[lyrecono]

I was thinking about playing a dwarf warpriest cleric, but after looking at the tree and it bonuses to the religion's chosen weapons and with there being no religion choice for dwarves that gives dwarven clerics proficiency and bonuses with either war hammers (I would prefer) or axes, both of which can be given bonuses from the dwarf tree. Is there any point or should I just say do a different tree for cleric and just pay the proficiency for say war hammer and just go with the racial tree bonuses?

Thanks for the advice. I was unaware that all dwarves started with the axe prof in the game. In the pen and paper version they had to have at least a +1 bab to get the prof for free. I am a very casual player who plays more for fun that number crunching for dps. Maybe I will make one after all.

I don't get why you even want to go melee with a cleric nowadays anyway, can just go max wisdom/constitution and instakill stuff with spells or finish them off with mediocre but double ranged sla's from 'Divine disciple' that will do harm for almost every enemy in the game( refering to 'light spec' ofc). Where if you go melee you'll have to gimp out other stats to qualify for some melee feats, you won't do as much damage as a barb or pali so dr breakers will be pretty mandatory and will probably still be treated as a restoration/deathward dispencery in tougher raids if you even plan to do those. Also when in close combat you need the extra beef, which clerics' dont get for granted and you're right - 'Warpriest' tree is pretty much a joke .

If going caster type you get the benefit of not having to be in combat and deal with some mobs before they even get to you. The class definetely has it's problems but with minor effort in gear that would make your sla's like 'Energy burst', 'Avengng light' etc. worthwile to use starting from L20. While obiously not a speedruner type a 2nd heroic tr pure cleric dwarf is definetely durable enough to solo EE's including some raids without pots or game store consumables.

if you realy want to use dem' hammers can make use of that dwarf racial tree and pick up 'Throw your weight around' which will benefit from your constitution modifier to damage(will still need strength for hit), so you can just spend enough AP in there and pic up healing aura from 'Radiant servant', possibly max out constitution, some strength for power attack, cleave requirements rest to wisdom probably for extra sp (taking 'Endless turning' will make turns regenrate, personaly giving me a reson to dump charisma).

NOTE: being a dwarf does not qualify you for dwarwen axe(exotic weapon) or warhammer proficiencies, only option to add bonus damage via racial tree, you will need to splash a class with martial weapon proficiency or spend a feat to remove the -4 hit penalty.

I barely scratched the surface here, but if ya going max wisdom/constitution sla caster type there're fewer oportunities to mess up.

I strongly suggest against dwarven throw your weight around, even if you manage to pull of a 80 con, it's only a bonus to damage, not to hit, meaning that as a medium BAB with a 13 str (power attack) and a lack of gear, past lives and tomes to support it, you'll be getting frustrated after missing a lot. It also requires a fair amount of points and they're not that useful to your goal.
Not that you'll notice much of being a dwarf, since you'll be looking at the back of your character 99% of the time

From a lore and rp perspective, this is Eberron, most people are raised with the host, it's clerics are mostly devoted to the entire pantheon as a whole, who use a long sword (hence the ddo focus on long swords).
There are no dwarven specific deities in Eberron.
Clerics don't get their spells from deities but from their convictions. (so no marry sue gods roaming the realm)
With it's focus on mining, commerce, (steam punk) technology, artificing and banking, the dwarfs don't have the strong religious focus of the other realms, which is reflected in ddo.

If you wane melee as a cleric, i can only suggest you try human, for a new toon. You don't have the stats on your side for a dwarf.
Sun elf would be a nice hamer user too, but i assume you weren't looking for that (even if you're looking at it's back 99% of the time)

[Vellrad]

Outside of handful niche builds, there's no reason to play any race other than human/bladeforged except for flavor.