1st Level Iconics

[-Avalon-]

I think that it would be a great idea to make 2 versions of each iconic: a 1st lvl, and a 15th lvl one. The 15th lvl still must get to 30 before reincarnating, but gets to pick all the classes from first level. The 1st lvl one starts at 1st, must go to 20 (therefore only gets the basic past life, not the iconic), and the first level is the fixed class (therefore still preserving Turbine's sales of +1 hearts!)...

IMO, this is important because the four we have now, have different racial trees, making them as much 'subraces' as drow is for elf. I imagine if drow were added now instead of way back, they'd be an iconic with ranger, maybe... But, we have the ability to make 1st lvl ones, which is awesome! Turbine could even whip up an iconic version of the drow if they wanted. This would double the racial potential, keep old sales income and add more even... Not screw up balance of the game, and give players a ton new build options.

[AzureDragonas]

Indeed that would be nice, i hate to avoid race only becuse i would lose Epic pl feat if i picked it. Making option to start from lvl 1 and skip iconic tr thing would make iconic races way more atractive.

[Ayseifn]

Wouldn't it make more sense to go the other way and have the level 15 version be locked into the iconic class?

That way you can 1-20 as any race/class combo you want for a heroic PL feat, while the 15-30 for an iconic past life would actually force you to take that races iconic class for the iconic past life.

[-Avalon-]

Wouldn't it make more sense to go the other way and have the level 15 version be locked into the iconic class?

That way you can 1-20 as any race/class combo you want for a heroic PL feat, while the 15-30 for an iconic past life would actually force you to take that races iconic class for the iconic past life.

However they'd want to do it, I was just trying to balance out the heart vs the extreme levelling requirement. That way, both would have positives and negatives. Honestly, they should give 'racial past life feats' that you only get by leviling to 30 (remove the name 'iconic' and change to 'racial') and can only get by starting at 15, but open that up to all characters as a 'veteran' type thing. Then allow the previously 'iconic' to start at 1. But, otherwise, don't really care how they end up doing it, but those races need to be allowable at level 1. There are a lot of 1st-5th lvl groups on lfm, but then it tapers off dramatically, picks right back up at 15, though... Wonder why... But, this time, that decent number of groups really only has one lull: 19. 15-18, & 20+, lots of groups... I think because people make a bunch of iconic toons. How many would choose level 1 instead, as long as they could tr at 20?

[digital_terror1]

Would love to see a TRUE iconic version of the race that they royally goofed up.

Sun Elf - Should be wizard iconic, and the undead oriented racials should have been arcane stuff. There's no reason to take the racial cores beyond the very first to unlock the rest of the tree. All the lore regarding this Elf subtype has the preferred class as wizard, as do most of the Elven racial subtypes.


Hopefully they don't mess gnomes and deep gnomes up as badly as they did sun elf.

[Uska]

I know I am in the minority but when iconics came out I understood them to be exactly that and they would have had 15 levels in their set class I would have actually liked seeing that since that would have made them true iconics

[Khatzhas]

Thematically level 15 start works with iconics because that is the point that you hit their themed content. All apart from BF are from FR so it makes sense that they start at the point the FR content does. The Bladeforged is from Eberron, but begins at the point many of the Cannith quests start, so likewise relevant.

Hopefully they don't mess gnomes and deep gnomes up as badly as they did sun elf.

Fairly sure that the Svirfneblin Iconic will be a wizard of some ilk at this point.

[FranOhmsford]

Fairly sure that the Svirfneblin Iconic will be a wizard of some ilk at this point.

Which as this is Svirfneblin we're talking about NOT Gnome is not Iconic in the slightest!

The base D&D Gnome is a Rock Gnome and yes Illusionist Archmage would be the right Iconic for that race BUT the Devs aren't giving us an Iconic Rock Gnome they're giving us an Iconic Svirfneblin!

Svirfneblin in order of what would actually be most Iconic:

Earth Cleric/Druid
Artificer
Rogue Mechanic/Scout
Stalwart Fighter {Breechgnome}

As Gnomes could only specialize as an Illusionist the other Archmages would be out of the window as would Pale Master BUT For Svirfneblin in DDO Conjurer Archmage or Earth Savant would be ok just not Iconic. {and yes Illusionist Archmage is available to Svirfneblin but again NOT Iconic to that specific Race!}.




But anyway...I realise the Devs have basically stated that there's no way we're gonna get an Iconic Druid or Cleric for Svirfneblin so here's my revised suggestion:

Wis based {HAS to be Wis based!}.
1st Level Rogue {At least this way we can make the Iconic DDO Rogue Splash: 18/2 Wiz/Rogue, Clogue, Arti/Rogue Mech, Stalwart Mech etc. etc.}.

[Khatzhas]

Which as this is Svirfneblin we're talking about NOT Gnome is not Iconic in the slightest!

The base D&D Gnome is a Rock Gnome and yes Illusionist Archmage would be the right Iconic for that race BUT the Devs aren't giving us an Iconic Rock Gnome they're giving us an Iconic Svirfneblin!

Svirfneblin in order of what would actually be most Iconic:

Earth Cleric/Druid
Artificer
Rogue Mechanic/Scout
Stalwart Fighter {Breechgnome}

As Gnomes could only specialize as an Illusionist the other Archmages would be out of the window as would Pale Master BUT For Svirfneblin in DDO Conjurer Archmage or Earth Savant would be ok just not Iconic. {and yes Illusionist Archmage is available to Svirfneblin but again NOT Iconic to that specific Race!}.




But anyway...I realise the Devs have basically stated that there's no way we're gonna get an Iconic Druid or Cleric for Svirfneblin so here's my revised suggestion:

Wis based {HAS to be Wis based!}.
1st Level Rogue {At least this way we can make the Iconic DDO Rogue Splash: 18/2 Wiz/Rogue, Clogue, Arti/Rogue Mech, Stalwart Mech etc. etc.}.

In the DDO cast one of the team mentioned that the idea was for the FR iconics to be able to put together a standard party to go adventuring together. There is already a Fighter, Rogue, Cleric iconic so . . .
I doubt that they would specialise them into a particular brand of archmage though.

Personally I would have guessed Ranger, given the natural connection and favoured class, but oh well. There is already an iconic Cleric and Rogue, Artificers don't really fit, and like Druids are already a premium class leading to pricing issues.

[FranOhmsford]

In the DDO cast one of the team mentioned that the idea was for the FR iconics to be able to put together a standard party to go adventuring together. There is already a Fighter, Rogue, Cleric iconic so . . .
I doubt that they would specialise them into a particular brand of archmage though.

Personally I would have guessed Ranger, given the natural connection and favoured class, but oh well. There is already an iconic Cleric and Rogue, Artificers don't really fit, and like Druids are already a premium class leading to pricing issues.

I'm sorry but the Devs really need to remove the term Iconic then!

Because of the four "Iconics" we currently have only Bladeforged Paladin would actually count as being that!

Shadar-Kai aren't Iconic at all never mind that the Iconic D&D Rogue is a HALFLING!
PDK are just a fighter in liege to one nation on the largest and most in depth World in D&D - Cormyr isn't even Iconic in the Realms as the standard playzones were Waterdeep, Shadowdale, Icewind Dale and The Moonshae Isles! {You could add Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter ahead of Cormyr too.}.
Morninglords = OMG! Let's not go there...It's all been said already!

And now we're getting Iconic Svirfneblin Wizards.
Just a few problems with this:
1) Svirfneblin unlike the Basic Rock Gnome are a +Wis rather than +Int Race - Meaning that in DDO terms they won't even be in Tier 2 {Human, Drow, Elf} for Wizard never mind Tier 1 {Warforged, Bladeforged}.
2) Svirfneblin are mainly Iconic for their eternal war with the Drow {I say war but more defense against!}. They don't really have an Iconic Class, They're Iconic as a Race....Which leads to...
3) As a Race Svirfneblin are Earth Worshippers who prize nothing more than Gemstones, Their war with the Drow and general underdark existence leads to them taking roles {along with that of Miner} as Earth Clerics, Breechgnomes {Stalwart Fighters} and Scouts {Rogues}.
The main class Illusionist amongst Svirfneblin is a flibbertigibbet who cannot be relied upon - Yes like all Gnomes they do have an affinity for illusions but it's tempered by their subsistence existence!

Finally the biggest problem of them all:
4) Gnomes are Iconic Illusionists NOT Iconic Wizards!
In fact Gnomes couldn't even be general Wizards never mind other specializations {which would incl. Sorc though I'd allow Earth Savant for Svirfneblin personally}.
There's no way for the Devs to lock out Pale Master, Eldritch Knight and the other Archmage Specializations so the Iconic Gnome Illusionist simply won't exist what with DDO's reliance on Necro, Conju, Evoc and Enchantment!
All Fleshy Casters have a problem with Self Healing too unless they go Pale and in D&D Illusion and Necro are Polar Opposites that any specialist in either cannot learn spells from the other!

[FranOhmsford]

You keep using ad&d terms and shouldnt in 3.5 an iconic gnome would be a bard and they can wizards and illusionists DO NOT EXIST.

1) Wizards and Illusionists don't exist in 3.5? Really? Really?

2) This is about the term "Iconic" and if anything encompasses the WHOLE of D&D not just 3.5 it would be THAT!

Since when do Gnomes get a bonus to Charisma anyway?

There's nothing Iconic about a Gnome Bard even in 3.5! It may be that WotC wrote it in as a preferred Class but that alone doesn't make it ICONIC!


If anything the "Iconic" Bard in D&D has always been Human or Half Elf! - They don't get a bonus to Charisma either but when people think Oooh I want to play a Bard they're not going to go straight to Gnome!


Iconic isn't just about the mechanics - It's about the feeling! {Actually it's a bit of both - Which is why Illusionist won't work for Svirfneblin....DDO's Illusion Mechanics will make it at best a flavour build and at worst utterly useless! What we'll have instead with base Class Wizard is a whole bunch of Svirfneblin Pale Masters!}.
Gnome Illusionist had both but that's the basic Rock Gnome NOT Svirfneblin!
An Iconic Elf Cleric of a Human God? I cannot understand how the Devs ever thought that would fly!
Shadar-Kai aren't Iconic at all - They were an added Munchkin Race in what? 4th Ed.! Yes Rogue is the obvious base Class for them but it does rather take away from Halflings that actually WERE Iconic Rogues!


Actually I really want to stress the real issues with Base Class Wizard - Yes I know the Devs want to add an Arcane to the Iconic Roster but:
1) We already have plenty of Iconic Arcanes!
Bladeforged 2 Pally/18 Sorc
Bladeforged 2 Pally/2 Rogue/16 Wizard {Or the FvS Splash Shiradi Builds}.
Shadar-Kai 2 Rogue/18 Wizard Pale Master
Morninglord 1 Cleric/19 Wizard
PDK 2 Fighter/3 Paladin/15 Wizard Eldritch Knight {Or 3 Fighter/2 Rogue/15 Wizard}.

2) Svirfneblin are Wis Based NOT Int - The basic Gnome will be a better Wizard than the Iconic! {And the basic doesn't get locked into that Class!}.

3) Svirfneblin Pale Masters ahoy!!!

4) Wizard at Lvl 1 = No Rogue Splash!
More to the point, though other splashes will be viable the 1st Lvl Wizard will hurt the ability to Multiclass said Iconic!
Wizard just doesn't synergise well as a Splash for say if you want to build a Svirfneblin Fighter that Wizard Level is just plain nasty!

I don't like the feeling that I'm being forced to pay TWICE!
Morninglord was a massive error and now the Devs are going to repeat that error!
1st Lvl Rogue would work because the Rogue Splash always starts at Lvl 1 anyway and the player base has long held that 18 Wiz/2 Rogue is just as good if not better than pure 20 Wiz! {Svirfneblin Scout would also satisfy some of the wish for Iconics to actually be "Iconic"}.
1st Lvl Cleric or Druid or even Artificer would work because those Classes actually ARE Iconic to Svirfneblin!
Heck 1st Lvl Fighter would work because Fighter is Iconic to Most Races {OK Maybe not Elf or Halfling}.

Wizard doesn't work not because it isn't Iconic {Though the Pale Master issue hurts it there} but because of DDO's mechanics!

[FranOhmsford]

What seems to be being ignored with Gnomes is that we are actually getting two distinct sub-races:

The Basic Gnome - Probably Zilargo with 3.5 Stats.
The Svirfneblin

These are completely different!

Making Svirfneblin take Base Class Wizard is the same as making Sun Elves take Base Class Cleric!
OR:
How about making Sylvan Elves {Iconic Rangers that they are} take Base Class Wizard {Because Elf = Wizard right?}?
How about making Tinker Gnomes take Base Class Bard?

What is right for one subspecies {the most common one, the one that was in the PHB!} is not right for ALL!


Svirfneblin do have the Gnomish love of Illusions but it's much less pronounced, they are wiser than other Gnomes & gain a +2 Wis rather than Int, they worship the Earth & can summon Earth Elementals to aid them and their existence is much harsher than that of other Gnomes so their "Iconic" classes would be Earth Cleric/Druid, Fighter and Rogue/Arti in that order!
I could even see Earth Savant as a possibility but having to take a Wizard Level rather nixes that!

None of the above has ANYTHING to do with 2nd Ed. over 3.5!

What the Devs "seem" {We do only have rumour to work on and an inference from a Dev} to be planning is making the Svirfneblin just the same as the Base Gnome {Weaker in fact if they give the Iconic +2 Wis and the Base +2 Int because the Iconic is then stuck with a non-synergistic 1st Level while the Base isn't!}.

We haven't even seen the Svirfneblin appearance yet, just the base Gnome.
If they look exactly the same then don't call it a Svirfneblin!

[-Avalon-]

I think we're missing a some potential options... It's possible that they make them rangers, but the race enhancements include illusionist-type effects. They are renowned for hatred of drow (favored enemies?), tracking, etc... But also for magically 'disappearing' or appearing like rocks or melding into them... Illusion covers that fairly well. Also, can still be a wizard of another sort since the illusionist abilities are in the racial tree (which like sun elf/elf, pdk/human, bf/wf) so gnome would have very similar abilities inherent, means they can focus on other types in AM tree.

[salmag]

I would love to see Iconic Svirfneblin Druid or Artificer, with one caveat: their summoned pet is an Earth Elemental.