The tale of the three forks : the Cannith Crafting Update pass

[nokowi]

I said average player, not casual player. I don't consider these to be in any way the same type of player. I would consider a casual player to dip into the game a couple of times a week, whereas an average player may play everyday, just not be into having to have the best of the best all the time.

Casual refers to the level of effort a player will spend to improve their character.

Average refers to skill level.

People contrast power gamers (those who try to eek every last drop of power) from casual gamers who play to enjoy the experience without needing to maximize their character power.

There are casual players with above average skill.
There are power gamers with below average skill.

Skill has little to do with being able to craft or not. Play preferences (causal vs power) have a lot to do with design of a crafting system.

It simply doesnt make sense to design an entire crafting system around the casual gamer.

It would be fine if low level gear (1-12) was designed around the casual gamer, and high level gear (20+) was designed around the power gamer. This would meet the needs of both types of players.

[JOTMON]

He's essentially saying that cannith crafting shouldn't be able to craft the equivalent of lootgen because that would be better than raid gear. As in, lootgen is better than raid gear.

Cannith Crafting should be able to reproduce anything we can find in lootgen. If lootgen is stronger than raid gear, that's a separate, unrelated issue.

This is a good point.

In my opinion the at level crafting should not be as good as raid gear, but there comes a point where crafting should be able to achieve the effects of loot gear (just not at the same level)
Named gear should be unique and superior to anything at the equivalent level.. Tharnes goggles at level 13 are great, no random or crafted item should be comparable.. at level 18 sure, go ahead and craft it or random drop it..

As we get into the higher levels I am looking to find/build gear to build around my character, not build my character around gear.
This was the success of Shroud.. no matter what your build/flavour, you could get the named/static items you wanted and fill the gaps with shroud gear since the gear could be customized to suit your needs.
want HP on boots, NP.. want SP on cloak, sure... Greensteels filled that void iand enhanced the overall layout with stacking bonuses in the best way possible.

As we head to endgame we are looking to maximize all the benefits and minimize all the negatives, customizable gear fits this pretty well, custom crafting works, but there still needs to be incentive to get out there and run the raids for the best possible stuff.
I would always expect crafted gear to be good enough to fit my needs but not the best possible.

The challenge is hitting that benchmark of crafting cost to make it worthwhile to invest into but still leaving it short of best in game (for level appropriate).

I would love to see the ability to deconstruct raid items to isolate their unique properties and craft them into other items.
There would of course have to be some restrictions, and added level penalties and such.. but be able to do things like..reforging...make the eSOS a different weapon than a Greatsword..
Turn various armor into Docents..

Sentient weapons.. multiple slots use augments and to absorb traits of Consumed Named items, level the sentient weapon to unlock higher level augment slots and customizable trait slots.
Gives reason to continuously rerun raids to farm items to use and be consumed..

[spinks]

Casual refers to the level of effort a player will spend to improve their character.

Average refers to skill level.

People contrast power gamers (those who try to eek every last drop of power) from casual gamers who play to enjoy the experience without needing to maximize their character power.

There are casual players with above average skill.
There are power gamers with below average skill.

Skill has little to do with being able to craft or not. Play preferences (causal vs power) have a lot to do with design of a crafting system.

It simply doesnt make sense to design an entire crafting system around the casual gamer.

It would be fine if low level gear (1-12) was designed around the casual gamer, and high level gear (20+) was designed around the power gamer. This would meet the needs of both types of players.

I politely and respectfully disagree. Skill has nothing to do with crafting, skill has to do with your level of play. Crafting is an alternative option to obtaining weapons, and gear. The 'skilled' players will get it from raids and farming, the less skilled have an alternative option, Cannith Crafting.

I stand by what I said before. The system should be designed around the average or if you prefer typical player. I also suggested Master Crafter recipes for the power gamers, but these should not take away from the typical player. Cannith crafting should be viable from levels 1-30.

Designing a crafting system predominantly around power gamers would in my opinion be a waste of resource. The Master Crafter idea would be for the power gamer. Smallest part of crafting for probably the smallest portion of the player base.

[HAL]

Raids aint gonna bite you is what I'm saying, they aren't the Uber club some make them out to be. especially on EN, which absolutely anyone can join with zero expectations and get some shots at raid loot or eventually a 20th list. It's not the game designers fault that you choose not to raid, and in an ideal world they would not have to design around that.

In most MMOs (I suspect "all"), Raiding is separate from normal questing and many players (I suspect most) choose not to raid. There is nothing wrong with people not choosing to raid and devs who don't take those players into account are discounting a large portion of their player base. Which would be stupid.

[HAL]

He's essentially saying that cannith crafting shouldn't be able to craft the equivalent of lootgen because that would be better than raid gear. As in, lootgen is better than raid gear.

Cannith Crafting should be able to reproduce anything we can find in lootgen. If lootgen is stronger than raid gear, that's a separate, unrelated issue.

This.

[HAL]

Just FYI spinks:

Skill has little to do with being able to craft or not.

I politely and respectfully disagree. Skill has nothing to do with crafting,

[UurlockYgmeov]

I said average player, not casual player. I don't consider these to be in any way the same type of player. I would consider a casual player to dip into the game a couple of times a week, whereas an average player may play everyday, just not be into having to have the best of the best all the time.

I politely and respectfully disagree. Skill has nothing to do with crafting, skill has to do with your level of play. Crafting is an alternative option to obtaining weapons, and gear. The 'skilled' players will get it from raids and farming, the less skilled have an alternative option, Cannith Crafting.

I stand by what I said before. The system should be designed around the average or if you prefer typical player. I also suggested Master Crafter recipes for the power gamers, but these should not take away from the typical player. Cannith crafting should be viable from levels 1-30.

Designing a crafting system predominantly around power gamers would in my opinion be a waste of resource. The Master Crafter idea would be for the power gamer. Smallest part of crafting for probably the smallest portion of the player base.

IMHO, There is no such thing as an 'average' player, just like there is no such thing as black and white questions and answers to any poll in DDO.

IMHO, There is no such thing as a skilled player as per your description.

Raiding is not about skill. Any player can just pike* and ride the coattails of others to get that sweet, sweet loot.

The way which you describe 'skilled' vs 'unskilled' is actually quite detrimental to the game as it, IMHO, because it delineates players between have's and havenots - those with noses stuck in air, and those who don't have noses stuck in the air.

While I might be misunderstanding the connotations and denotations, some of the statements have validity, but in another way.

Raid loot is to be the best 'at level' gear in the game‡ At least the most recently released should be. Some items do survive the test of time, such as some ToD rings, silver longbow, heroic greensteel, cannith challenge gear, etc. There is no denying that LGS with its stacking set bonuses cannot (and should not) be beaten by random loot or even Cannith Crafted. The Dev's made it even a point that Thunder-Forged and Mortal Fear should not compete against LGS.

With that said having a ML:26 Cannith Crafted (+14 stat (enhancement) +7 stat (insight) +2 stat (exceptional) with a colorless slot for a +2 spooky and a blue/red slot) is still not on the same power level as the same LGS - but requires significantly more grind to make. (BTW - the LGS item has more effects and not to mention that if it is a weapon, it will blow the doors off anything made by Cannith Crafting.) The only advantage that the Cannith Crafted item has is when you spend the resources and where the item is equipped, along with complete (hopefully) flexibility in what goes where.

Anybody can make LGS gear providing they own the pack and pike* enough. Not everyone (in fact less than 5%) will spend the stratospheric resources required to achieve crafting level 200 in three spheres in order to make an inferior version of the same item (if at all possible). However, just like LGS, if you spend enough time plugging away you can reach the crafting levels necessary to make the item.‡‡

He's essentially saying that cannith crafting shouldn't be able to craft the equivalent of lootgen because that would be better than raid gear. As in, lootgen is better than raid gear.

Cannith Crafting should be able to reproduce anything we can find in lootgen. If lootgen is stronger than raid gear‡, that's a separate, unrelated issue.

Agree - Crafting is not about skill and is not about raiding - it needs to be as good, if not better than random generated loot because it takes time and resource investment not just random luck. Crafting can not, and should not be as good as the most modern, recently released raid loot / named loot at the same level.

Agree - The issue brought up about how the game as evolved past and forgotten existing raid/named loot is not pertinent to this discussion and is a completely unrelated topic. ‡‡‡

In most MMOs (I suspect "all"), Raiding is separate from normal questing and many players (I suspect most) choose not to raid. There is nothing wrong with people not choosing to raid and devs who don't take those players into account are discounting a large portion of their player base. Which would be stupid.

agree.

---

* hopefully with permission, preferably to actually play the content, but somepeople do fall asleep, drooling on their keyboards. ;p

‡ At least the most recently released should be. Over time and new content being released, the game evolves and adapts. The named loot does not. Hopefully with the release of the new the random loot and the hidden mechanics that power it, Named loot will somewhat 'autoadapt' as the content and game evolves.

‡‡ That is part of the beauty of DDO; anyone can get there if they spend enough resources to get there, just a matter of one specific resource (time). This isn't about skill of the player or the character - it is about the resources invested to eliminate 'random luck' based lootgen.

‡‡‡ Yes, I do wish that existing named and raid loot not keeping its relevance as the game has continued to evolve was addressed, but just accept that old is old and dusty and often tarnished, and not as valuable as it once was. Example - the EDNIAC computer vs an Apple IIe vs and IBM PC 30 vs a Samsung padphone.... should we as a society spend the resources to update the EDNIAC computer to be as powerful as the latest Cray supercomputer, or should we invest that mind-boggling amount of resources into creating the next generation o computers that are already more powerful?

[Stoner81]

Agreed.I disagree. Random loot should never had Speed.
Only some named items should have all three effects in one place:
Striding, Melee attack speed, Ranged attack speed

Also the minimum lvl of Melee/Ranged Alacrity in the current cannith crafting is too low (it should be ML10 instead of ML1 IMO).

But I wouldn't mind if they add a recipe in cannith crafting for some stacking (maybe alchemical?) bonus to attack speed (up to 5%), but it should be separate recipes for Melee and Ranged attack speed, also it shouldn't be as part of Speed (movement speed should be yet another thing). This bonus should be available in cannith crafting only.

Alacrity is only ML1 when you add Masterful to it, otherwise it is ML3 IIRC.

I sort of see what you are saying about Speed but the truth is that the Speed effect is already here and in place.

Stoner81.

[ColdBrewer]

Alacrity is only ML1 when you add Masterful to it, otherwise it is ML3 IIRC.

I sort of see what you are saying about Speed but the truth is that the Speed effect is already here and in place.

Stoner81.

Cannith Crafting is one of my favorite aspects of DDO. That being said, if I were to vote I would probably vote for option number one. It is a pain in the ass to grind out the levels, especially when the current system is broken, but in the end if Cannith crafting could be competitive with random loot drops and named item drops, then there would be enough incentive for many folks out there to get over it and just grind out the levels. The named craftsmanship is one of the best ideas that you all have come up with yet! In this way video continues to follow its pen and paper counterpart. Even more important than transparency is the fact that this could be an area of immense player pride.

[Brac]

Crafting should only be for items useful from level 1-20. A crafted item should never be best in slot for higher end content. If it is best in slot at level 14, no one cares. It has little effect on the game. That is how it should always be.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Crafting should only be for items useful from level 1-20. A crafted item should never be best in slot for higher end content. If it is best in slot at level 14, no one cares. It has little effect on the game. That is how it should always be.

so potions healing belong only in heroics? what about alchemical crafted stuff? also only heroics.

This is one game - not this half and that half. So spending time and resources to leveling crafting - while forgoing time spent on heroic or epic or destiny xp - should only be useful for half the game?

That is like saying platinum is only for epics, and astral shards are only for epics. That makes no sense.

'No one cares. It has little effect on the game.' - so basically you seem to really think crafting just should be totally scrapped. Just like everything before say level 30....

Cannot disagree more.

[Gauthaag]

‡‡‡ Yes, I do wish that existing named and raid loot not keeping its relevance as the game has continued to evolve was addressed, but just accept that old is old and dusty and often tarnished, and not as valuable as it once was. Example - the EDNIAC computer vs an Apple IIe vs and IBM PC 30 vs a Samsung padphone.... should we as a society spend the resources to update the EDNIAC computer to be as powerful as the latest Cray supercomputer, or should we invest that mind-boggling amount of resources into creating the next generation o computers that are already more powerful?

problem is that packs with loot u describe as EDNIAC (what the hell is that? It s maybe ENIAC u want to pick as reference) is still sold at relatively same price as at time it offered top notch loot. as reward loot is integral part of such pack I would either expect prices dropping down or polishing loot to recent standards.

what I d most appreciate will be ability to strip random generated item of one ability and replacing it with ability of my choice as it was advertised at very beginning of cannith crafting.

[Deathdefy]

1)
I'm worried some posters have convinced themselves Cannith Crafting was something it never was.

Cannith Crafting was never able to mirror the top effects of lootgen.
Every top tier effect, like:
- Vorpal,
- Smiting,
- Disruption,
- Paralyzing,
- Banishing,
and all of the super rare compound effects like Tempestuous, Obscenity, etc, were always unavailable through Cannith Crafting. Yes, most of those listed are garbage now, but they were the best there was in Cannith Crafting's heyday.

Similarly, even on suffixes and prefixes that were craftable, Wondrous Crafting was exclusive to the completion of quest chains and allowed the finding of more powerful items (both in terms of power for minimum level and power at max level) than Cannith Crafting could ever have made.

I am not a fan of the system as it stands (entirely obsolete), but one limit it has currently, in that the best gear is definitively only available through raiding or completing quests is a reasonable constraint.


2)
I think my objection to, "well yes, that's the status quo, but that doesn't mean it's an optimal solution - Cannith Crafting SHOULD be as powerful as lootgen" goes something like,
"Do you think completing Irestone Inlet on casual a sufficiently high number of times should potentially grant items as powerful as those potentially available from completing the most difficult quest in the game on LE?"

I know people will say 'yes' because this is an internet forum, but they're not the audience I'm trying to convince.

Ultimately it is a design philosophy question - 100% time investment, 0% skill investment reward systems are, in my opinion, disrespectful to players and will ultimately drive new players (grind appears too much) and vets (I am not clicking on that machine another half million times instead of doing one of the many things that makes ddo fun) alike away.

I don't buy that this is somehow an 'elitists vs non-elitists' thing either. The 'you need to invest a massive amount of time to see rewards from this system' is far harsher on casual players than 'this system will provide about the same rewards for you as people who do play much more often'. Necessarily those rewards shouldn't be too amazing since systems that don't require an abundance of skill or time shouldn't give disproportionate rewards.

I'd be happy to see craftable +11-12 stat items at the top end (potentially at ML 22-24 or something so it's SOMETHING lootgen can't/will rarely give (superior levelling gear), but isn't endgame gear), and just rescaled recipes over the 150 existing crafting levels.

[Xionanx]

What we "Get" when it comes to the Cannith Crafting update will likely be more of what we already have. While I would love to see the entire system revamped to make it future proof, something I suggested like 9 months ago in the suggestion forums.. I highly doubt any "major" changes will occur.

As a recap of what I would LIKE to see:

ALL Items have "Slots" (think FF 7, Diablo 2, Path of Exile, or even DDO's already existing augment system)

Each NORMAL item has:

1 Enhancement Slot for +1 to +10 (or whatever the current "Max" is)
1 Prefix Slot
1 Suffix Slot
Plus Random "Colored" slots for existing augments

Each RAID item has:
Everything a Normal Has
Plus Special "Raid" granted effect.

When you break down an item you choose to remove ONE "Augment" from a slot, the rest are LOST and the item is destroyed.
When you choose to "Cleanse" an item, you loose all "Augments" currently socketed in it and it becomes a "Blank" ready to accept augments. If you cleanse a piece of raid gear, it retains its special raid trait.

Example of how it would work:

You do "Raid Y" and get a "+5 Raid Weapon of Special Effect" but you dont like the prefix / suffix effects it grants. So you take the "Raid Weapon" to the crafter and have it "Cleansed", the craft person charges you PLATINUM for them privilege equal to the ML of the item squared x 1000 (1 x 1 x 1000 or 1000 Platinum for a ML 1 item, or 29 x 29 x 1000 or 841000 platinum for a ML 29 item). After you have "Cleansed" the item you decide you like the "Vorpal" effect, so you find a vorpal weapon from random loot gen and have its socket removed, removing sockets is "Free" since it destroys the item in the process. You now decide to place this "Vorpal" effect into your newly cleansed raid weapon... for, you guessed it, the ML of the item squared in PLATINUM.

This system does away with "Crafting Levels", you are an ADVENTURER, not a professional crafter who has the time to learn the intricate details of a highly specialize craft that isn't "Killing things".

What my proposed changes do:

1. Anyone can craft at any level, with the only barrier being "Money"
2. Makes Platinum useful again, people will no longer being sitting on 4 to 5 "Plat Capped" characters (best platinum sink ever)
3. Makes the auction house useful again, now there really might be a "Random Effect" on a random loot gen item that you need to buy to craft onto your weapon
4. Is "Future Proof" Any "New" prefix or suffix can be added to the loot table as an augment and the devs wont need to "update" the crafting system to accommodate it
5. Old "Raid Items" (if converted) can be useful again, suddenly no one is getting screwed when "new raids" come out.. there old items can simply be re-slotted to make them better.
6. Is "Modular" .. seriously, as the system ages new ways of "adding more sockets" could be added. Raid items could have "Double Prefix" slots, etc etc..
7. Can easily be integrated into the DDO Store by selling Augments, or "Cleansing" items that let you cleanse without spending in game platinum.
8. Gives players more freedom to outfit their characters how they "Want"
9. Doesn't add yet one more useless collectible system to the game that will become out dated in a year and forgotten about.
10. Uses PRE EXISTING CODE.. We already have the augment system for "Colored" augments, its not much of a stretch to make "Prefix" and "Suffix" augments.
11. Fixes the "Cant search the Auction House" complaint.. now players could simply strip augments out of items and sell the augments directly. Players could simply search for the augment.
12. Can be used to "Modernize" LEGACY gear.. I'm looking at you Titan/VON6/Reavers Refuge

More Grind/More Power, Some Gind/Some Power, KISS...

By elimination of the grind entirely, the only thing people need to grind for is the "Gear" itself and the "Money" to preform the crafting. Players can focus on playing the game rather then staring at a crafting window "Grinding" out crafting levels. The "Grind" serves NO PURPOSE, even in the current crafting system. Its simply an antiquated mechanic designed to fool you into thinking your special because you spent 10 hours of your life "Crunching" items for mats, making 1000's of "Useless" shards, then crunching them.. NO SKILL was involved, all it took was mindless monotony and frankly I find it insulting to players to expect them to do it.

The only "Problem" I can forsee if Cannith Crafting was switched to my proposal would be all the players who wasted their time grinding the old system *****ing and moaning and wanting some kind of reward or refund..

The "But its too powerful" complaint.. NO its not. I uses existing loot gen, if an augment is "Too powerful" then maybe it doesn't need to be in the current loot gen in the first place.
The "Its too easy" complaint.. NO its not. Its "Simple" enough that anyone can understand it, and complicated enough so players can have fun making strange combinations.
The "Its too cheap" complaint.. NO its not. AT THIS MOMENT when you look at your huge piles of platinum that have built up over years of playing DDO.. it might seem that way, but tell me that after you have crafted and slotted out 4-5 pieces of ML 30 gear and are BROKE for the first time in 7 years. Its expensive enough to make high end items a "Major Purchase" and cheap enough so that a new player can actually foresee crafting a level 8 item for their character.

HOWEVER.... Like I said at the start of the post. From Turbine I expect more of the same.. I fully expect the cannith crafting pass will just been the new prefixes and suffixes added to the current system, then.. in a year, the system will be outdated again and sit around being yet one more thing players just "deal with" because they have to.

[IronClan]

In most MMOs (I suspect "all"), Raiding is separate from normal questing and many players (I suspect most) choose not to raid. There is nothing wrong with people not choosing to raid and devs who don't take those players into account are discounting a large portion of their player base. Which would be stupid.

A system that has a few high end recipes that require raid loot as an ingredient is "ignoring" a large portion of the player base?

Come now that's not a remotely honest strawman you're trying the prop up.

I think it could easilly be looked as as a way to allow some limited powerful crafted items, thus throwing a crafting bone to raiders, while at the same time throwing out a little carrot for non raiders to try something new or step out of their comfort zone. If not no biggie it's not like someone who wont do an EN raid NEEDS end game gear.

All of which is completely besides the point, I already pointed out that they could also do "10,000 remnants or 1 raid item and 5000 remnants" if a crafting system is to have any powerful/rare/hard to achieve applications it must have high costs. I don't even care if this is raid items, it could be anything so long as it's valued and not plentiful. Something entirely new that drops in saga's or old raids (opps that might make some people feel compelled to do an Normal Abbot and experience a part of the game they probably have never even seen, such a horrific thought for some reason).. whatever.

[MaximumCharisma]

People seem to have forgotten that Cannith Crafting was very popular when it was introduced and still never produced the really high end gear for end game. Some few exceptions such as handwraps for LOB perhaps. Largely it was twink gear for leveling and people were quite happy with that.

With the addition of actual value in random loot, the idea that Cannith Crafting should produce everything that random loot can generate seems wrong to me. Random loot finally has a place in this game other than to deconstruct for essences.

DnD has always had a very strong random component to it that makes looting fun. The desire to twink out particular builds through crafting should be useful as far as epic leveling is concerned (up to 28 perhaps). Basically, leave out top tier stats so that nice twink leveling gear can be created.

[Gremmlynn]

Whether or not crafting ingredients drop everywhere is completely separate from the points I have made.

I will repeat the argument.

If crafting is something done with no effort, it will either

1. Be less powerful than existing items and be largely unused (waste of dev resources)
2. Be of equal power (and thus invalidate all random gear)
3. Be of higher power and make the loot system of the entire game pointless

Unless you are arguing for a new resource that drops everywhere and requires some effort to gather, your preferences don't allow for a crafting system that works within the game of DDO.

Cannith Crafting has never been something done with no effort though. I put in a couple years of effort into it.

[Gremmlynn]

Casual refers to the level of effort a player will spend to improve their character.

Average refers to skill level.

People contrast power gamers (those who try to eek every last drop of power) from casual gamers who play to enjoy the experience without needing to maximize their character power.

There are casual players with above average skill.
There are power gamers with below average skill.

Skill has little to do with being able to craft or not. Play preferences (causal vs power) have a lot to do with design of a crafting system.

It simply doesnt make sense to design an entire crafting system around the casual gamer.

It would be fine if low level gear (1-12) was designed around the casual gamer, and high level gear (20+) was designed around the power gamer. This would meet the needs of both types of players.

Because "casual" players never play above level 12? What then, reroll or quit because level 13+ is just for those with extreme stat obsession and insecurity issues?

[Gremmlynn]

I politely and respectfully disagree. Skill has nothing to do with crafting, skill has to do with your level of play. Crafting is an alternative option to obtaining weapons, and gear. The 'skilled' players will get it from raids and farming, the less skilled have an alternative option, Cannith Crafting.

I stand by what I said before. The system should be designed around the average or if you prefer typical player. I also suggested Master Crafter recipes for the power gamers, but these should not take away from the typical player. Cannith crafting should be viable from levels 1-30.

Designing a crafting system predominantly around power gamers would in my opinion be a waste of resource. The Master Crafter idea would be for the power gamer. Smallest part of crafting for probably the smallest portion of the player base.

I don't even see a need for a "master crafter" system for power gamers. The game already has ToEE, crafting, Shroud crafting, Thunder Forged crafting, etc. for the power grinders... err...gamers.

[Gremmlynn]

Crafting should only be for items useful from level 1-20. A crafted item should never be best in slot for higher end content. If it is best in slot at level 14, no one cares. It has little effect on the game. That is how it should always be.

If that were the case, then this whole thread would be pointless due to spending any dev time on the system being pointless. As would gaining levels in it.