U29 - Return of the Int Assassin - An End Game Int Assassin Build

[slarden]

UPDATE - I have TR'd to this concept and hashed out the details here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Assassin-Build

The build is performing very well in LE quests and LE Tempest Spine.

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Ok,

So after being very critical of the dev's decision to allow dex assassins without any balance considerations for int assassins I once again have to say - I am wrong. Dex assassins are still better overall, but I do think int assassins will fill a niche at end game now and dire charge is a huge advantage that int assassins didn't have prior to U29. For LE content I prefer int over dex and for all other content the benefits don't matter that much. For leveling and etr - dex is still the way to go in my opinion.

I am not currently running this build but plan to switch to it for running LE content shortly - just debating whether I want to use my year end bonus money to make the transformation quicker (heroic or heroic + epic). and return to raiding.

There are many groups running LE tempest spine - some the full method for fun/chests and others the short cut method. There has been talk of getting together regular shroud LE runs also. Either way a really high assassinate DC is likely more useful than the dex benefits and the the thing that tips it over the edge for me is dire charge. In case of failed assassinate use the dire charge and in my experience the party can take down the mob in 6 seconds with proper team work and coordination. In addition, the value of KTA increased with U29 as stats are now higher. This is true for dex builds also which would require me to rethink my build even if I stayed as a dex assassin.

Race: Either Drow or Sun Elf - I want to be Sun Elf to be unique and also to start at 15 instead of 1. Of course that requires a +1 lesser. The big heal ability isn't bad if I can fit in the AP. I also think the sun elf precision enhancement which gives a % increase to hit vs. +x means it will be very useful with the high # of grazing hits in LE since U29. Accuracy and Insightful accuracy will also need to fit into my gear slot as I don't think assassinate works on a grazing hit so even 1 or 2 more hit #s is very helpful.

Intelligence
Starting Int: 20
Level Ups: 7
Tome: 7

Shadowdancer: 5
Completionist: 2
Great Int or Twist: 1

Assassin Enhancements: 2
Harper Tree Enhancements: 4
Sun Elf / Drow Enhancements: 2
Deadly Shadow Capstone: 2

Item: 14 (helm of int +14 stunning +16)
Insightful Item: 7 (greensteel assassinate stick you only lose 1 DC if you don't use this)
Exceptional Item: 2 (greensteel assassinate stick you only lose 1 DC if you don't use this)
Quality Item (Cloak): 3
Spooky bonus from augment: 2
Profane bonus from Littany: 2

Ship Buffs: 2
Yugo Pot: 2
Remnant Turn-in potions (available in store very cheaply): 2

Total Int for LE Raids: 88

Assassinate DC
Base: 10
Rogue Levels: 20
Intelligence: 39 (a little more is possible with +1 from item, twists, feats, etc)
Deadly Shadow Capstone: 2
Shadowdancer Stealthy: 6
Measure the Foe: 5
Item: 7 (will show screen shot shortly - got as shroud end reward)
Ins Item: 2 (not sure if 3 is possible - didn't think 7 was possible till I got it)
Scion of the Astral Plane Feat: 4 (debatable feat but again for end game LE assassinate>sneak damage except against bosses)
Total Assassinate DC: 95

100 sustainable assassinate is now theoretically possible if you max int and assassinate.

Based on my palemaster's performance in LE content this will be a highly effective DC for LE. I also was failing some spell pen rolls with a spell pen of 64 in LE tempest spine so assassins can have a higher DC and no worries about spell pen. Necromancers are the only deathwarded enemy in LE tempest spine I can remember.

Dire Charge
Base: 25
Intelligence Modifier: 39
KTA: 20
Stunning Item: 16
Insightful Combat Mastery: 5
LD Twist: 6 (might be overkill, but want to see if anything beats a 105 before using this twist)
Past Life Fighter: 1 (up to 3 if you have more)
Total Dire Charge DC: 112

Obviously trapping skills are going to be amazing with a swap int skills item for good measure (probably not even needed). The main green steel accessory will be dex skills x3 for max hide and move silently.

I have way too many alts so I haven't had a chance to run my assassin in LE raids yet to get an idea of what #s are needed for hide/move silently - but with positioning it won't really matter much anyhow as they will never get a chance to spot you. The DC will be very solid - only issue will potentially be the impact of grazing hits which I hope will be lessened by sun elf precision (% based which is unique), an accuracy and insightful accuracy item.

[slarden]

I got this from a shroud end reward - I didn't think assassinate +7 existed until I saw this.



I've found 3 int 14 stunning x hats but this is the best. I would prefer a 15 int helm with a lower stunning value but that will like take some time to find.

[brzytki]

Isn't KTA insight bonus, thus not stacking with Insightful Combat Mastery?

Does fighter PL increase Dire Charge DC?

Also, since KTA is half the INT mod to the DC it means that 12 INT is worth 3 DC, so in my opinion there's nothing stopping DEX-based assassins to spec for Dire Charge as well, and have similar DC.

Edit: Also, gratz on +7 assassinate item.

[slarden]

Isn't KTA insight bonus, thus not stacking with Insightful Combat Mastery?

Does fighter PL increase Dire Charge DC?

Also, since KTA is half the INT mod to the DC it means that 12 INT is worth 3 DC, so in my opinion there's nothing stopping DEX-based assassins to spec for Dire Charge as well, and have similar DC.

Edit: Also, gratz on +7 assassinate item.

Insightful combat mastery probably shouldn't stack with KTA, but at the moment it does (at least on the items I tested).

Fighter Past Life does increase Dire Charge by up to +3 - ty I forgot to mention that although it's just +1 for me. I will update the original post. Thank you for the catch!

Dex based assassins can definitely get a workable DC for dire charge so int isn't required for it. It's just easier for int builds. Some enemy fort saves are over 100 but most are mid 90s or lower. In many cases a failed assassinate could mean a really high DC so that super high dire charge is a nice escape button for an assassin.

The value of KTA is higher in general since U29 with the higher stat #s and of course the biggest beneficiaries of that is int builds.

The other thing I am trying to understand is "to hit" chance which is now on a bell curve so +1 to hit no longer means 5% as it once did. +30 from accuracy and insightful accuracy may only raise your hit chance by 5-10% so the 6% to hit bonus for sun elf means not getting a grazing hit 6% of the time. That is highly useful as I don't think assassinate works on a grazing hit? I am a little confused about how it works but want to see what sort of grazing hit #s I am getting with 30 from accuracy and 6% to hit chance from sun elf. Some people are complaining they are getting grazing hits on a 9 in LE now.

[Saekee]

This has been my philosophy--I haven't tested it sufficiently so I have not posted it. But my main (assassin) is drow with maxed INT and max harper.

I put enough AP in Harper for 4 Int and another 8 or 9 melee power. A crazy high Int fueled by both more MP and KtA is great boss DPS. I get 10 INT just from the trees (2 drow, 2 assassin, capstone, 4 harper). I am planning on the gear you mentioned but I had not considered Dire Charge fully. Nice idea!
I have balanced attacks, haste boost and cocoon twisted. I might drop the drow INT and some mp for improved traps, but I really like to just be patient and assassinate only (my weaving in the fade).

[slarden]

This has been my philosophy--I haven't tested it sufficiently so I have not posted it. But my main (assassin) is drow with maxed INT and max harper.

I put enough AP in Harper for 4 Int and another 8 or 9 melee power. A crazy high Int fueled by both more MP and KtA is great boss DPS. I get 10 INT just from the trees (2 drow, 2 assassin, capstone, 4 harper). I am planning on the gear you mentioned but I had not considered Dire Charge fully. Nice idea!
I have balanced attacks, haste boost and cocoon twisted. I might drop the drow INT and some mp for improved traps, but I really like to just be patient and assassinate only (my weaving in the fade).

I somehow missed the weaving in the fade build previously. That was a great read and some very clever ideas. Thank you!

sense weakness will also be a beneficial twist with balanced attacks and dire charge (also generates helplessness). I believe 4-3-1-1 is possible now without many epic past lifes but I might be wrong.

[Saekee]

I somehow missed the weaving in the fade build previously. That was a great read and some very clever ideas. Thank you!

sense weakness will also be a beneficial twist with balanced attacks and dire charge (also generates helplessness). I believe 4-3-1-1 is possible now without many epic past lifes but I might be wrong.

thanks! I specialize in gimpdom so I am always trying to come up with ways to deal with stuff. To things more to consider:

1. I think the insightful assassinate/assassinate bonus combo only appears on gloves. According to the wiki, dexterity appears on gloves and boots (and as a hidden effect on rings) while Int can appear on hats, goggles and cloaks. If gloves are already dedicated to murderous gloves of assassinate (from this thread +3 insightful assassinate is possible), that does not leave dex builds with much flexibility--boots and the rare ring, the latter often dedicated to named loot with improved deception or sneak damage. This means that the recent random loot overhaul actually favors INT builds.
2. Another thing worth exploring is Holymunchkin's observations here about neg/neg/neg INT weapons. Holy states that they cause a neg level on hit which then has a 30 sec cooldown (bonus effect, legendary negation: 1d3 negative levels on hit or spellcast. this effect has an internal cooldown of 30s, and works 100% of the time after 30s).This would make such a LGS INT weapon in the mainhand on INT builds very good for assassinating. If it fails, the mob loses a couple of levels which would then essentially buff the assassinate attempt on the offhand by debuffing their saving throw -2 to -6 (I have mimicked this effect by using a sacrificial dagger in the mainhand when weaving; it rarely fails). Even if it does fail, if you attempted to assassinate a full hp mob, the damage will be very high (roughly -10-25% of hp). I do not know if an all-dex weapon has the same effect, but it might.

from wiki about negative levels:

• Each negative level gives a creature a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, ability checks. Also inflicts a -1 penalty to effective level (affects things like spells and abilities which rely on caster level or character level). Negative levels stack.
• Negative levels also affect maximum hit points.
• For monsters, each negative level reduces hit points by 10 %. (DDO Forums) Epic monsters regenerate negative levels at a very fast pace, however, the inflicted HP damage does not heal.

[slarden]

I think the insightful assassinate/assassinate bonus combo only appears on gloves. According to the wiki, dexterity appears on gloves and boots (and as a hidden effect on rings) while Int can appear on hats, goggles and cloaks. If gloves are already dedicated to murderous gloves of assassinate (from this thread +3 insightful assassinate is possible), that does not leave dex builds with much flexibility--boots and the rare ring, the latter often dedicated to named loot with improved deception or sneak damage. This means that the recent random loot overhaul actually favors INT builds.

Yeah that seems to be the case that it is easier to slot int for an assassin than dex but you can get dex +15 on a ring and it's always possible to make a ring work. Boots have been my heroic greensteel slot for quite some time so it would take something really good to switch that around. I will probably use the new quality/insightful prr boots and use gs as a swap item once I get my new GS dex skills item cleaned.

For me I've decided to be very picky about my random loot or not use it. I have +15 int goggles but that's the only useful thing on there so I will give up one int for now and stick with my 14 int stunning 16 hat that gives me 2 useful things.

I found these for gloves so unless I get a version with doublestrike (even 13 or 14%) and ins +3 assassinate I'll stick with these.

[Saekee]

Does Dire Charge break stealth?

[FestusHood]

The other thing I am trying to understand is "to hit" chance which is now on a bell curve so +1 to hit no longer means 5% as it once did. +30 from accuracy and insightful accuracy may only raise your hit chance by 5-10% so the 6% to hit bonus for sun elf means not getting a grazing hit 6% of the time. That is highly useful as I don't think assassinate works on a grazing hit? I am a little confused about how it works but want to see what sort of grazing hit #s I am getting with 30 from accuracy and 6% to hit chance from sun elf. Some people are complaining they are getting grazing hits on a 9 in LE now.

In legendary normal shroud i observed several grazing hits on 9's with an attack bonus over 100. Don't know how much higher the ac on elite is.

[Qezuzu]

Does Dire Charge break stealth?

It doesn't, actually.

[Saekee]

It doesn't, actually.

wow! That means it should not break invisibility or shadow walk either. Gaaah I need more play time...

[slarden]

Found these as shroud end reward



When checking through my mule I found these and will likely use these and use the heroic greensteel as a swap item and maybe use my new dex skill legendary gs as bracers.

[Saekee]

Looks like gnome is better than drow for INT assassins. What do you think?
The cores are better and you do not get stuck with a lower CON.

[Maelodic]

Looks like gnome is better than drow for INT assassins. What do you think?
The cores are better and you do not get stuck with a lower CON.

I was thinking about an INT gnome assassin with shortswords the other day. You can fill out the +1 crit threat in gnome (for +1 crit threat/multi), INT from harper, and assassin.

Main problem is you miss out on the goodies from Acrobat...

[Saekee]

I was thinking about an INT gnome assassin with shortswords the other day. You can fill out the +1 crit threat in gnome (for +1 crit threat/multi), INT from harper, and assassin.

Main problem is you miss out on the goodies from Acrobat...

The short swords will only have 16-20/3 (possibly 15-20/3; the new IC rules confuse me for expanded effects) as compared to knives and kukris (15-20/4). OTOH a ninja splash with short swords might be a tad more viable than the past. (Nice named short swords with expanded crit ranges may be compelling, though, like Rebellion and Cutthroat smallblade). I suspect that the someday-newly-revamped ninja tree will have the same competence bonus on expanded threat for short swords so it will not stack anyway.

I was thinking, though, that an INT gnome might be able to take rapid reload and mechanic (11 AP), so you get light repeater proficiency, light repeater expanded threat, take blinding speed as later epic feat. You would be able to play with Wand & Scroll mastery, improved traps and have a mediocre ranged component (need to use a keen light lootgen light repeater, buff it with Risia etc.). I am not sure if AP would work, though; seems like you need 17 gnome, 11 mechanic, 43 (?) assassin, minimum 12 for harper= 83... So no, unless one were to use a feat for light repeater use...Anyway, they would make more compelling pure mechanics (poor drow!)

Gnomes should get light repeater proficiency IMHO if that is their big racial boost weapon; otherwise this would not work.


Gnomes have better cores than drow (dodge vs useless spell resistance) and better starting CON, so it seems that it is an easy choice to make them the new INT assassins. I won't have access to gnome so drow is still a good #2.

[slarden]

Looks like gnome is better than drow for INT assassins. What do you think?
The cores are better and you do not get stuck with a lower CON.

The main thing drow has going for it vs. other races is the easy ability to switch between dex and int with a simple lesser respec or etr.

Deep Gnome is a great tree with +2 int and +4 dodge for 7 pts and then +3 saves, +3 max dex, + 3 dodge cap for 6 more pts. The problem is that 41 in assassin is a must and you probably want to spend at least 14 AP in harper but preferably 24. You would want at least 8 pts in acrobat for subtlety but haste boost frees up a twist spot and is also useful. It's also 8 AP for web traps in mechanic which is a compelling alternative to more dodge against mobs. So I am not convinced the extra points spent on the deep gnome tree are worth the trade off.

Assuming just 6 AP spent in racial tree I would prefer precision from sun elf over 2 dodge from either gnome tree since dodge is already capped for me once I build up shadow charges. As always int builds are really tight on AP compared to dex builds so there are no easy choices.

If someone does go deep gnome they would roughly spend one of two ways based on whether they wanted 2 more int + mp or saves + dodge cap

41 assassin
15 harper tree
13 deep gnome tree
11 acrobat tree

or

41 assassin
24 harper tree
7 deep gnome tree
8 acrobat tree

If I wanted to build an int assassin that ran primarily in LD I would go deep gnome and get PRR from blitz and extra dodge missing from shadow charges from the gnome tree.