White Feather Sniper: A DPS and CC focused full time ranged pure ranger

[kendo]

curious why you would take exposing strike instead of sniper shot in DWS tree.

[CThruTheEgo]

curious why you would take exposing strike instead of sniper shot in DWS tree.

Just a copy/paste error. It should be sniper shot. Thanks for catching it.

[gwonbush]

I'm not an expert on bows, so what are the best bows to have at endgame? I've got an Epic Bow of the Silver Flame, Epic Sapphire Sting, and a tier 2 Thunder-forged with first degree burns and dragon's edge. ToEE ranged weapons seem pretty weak and, given my limited playtime lately, it will be a while before I can craft any legendary greensteel. Are there any other bows I should be looking for? Is it generally better to use a bow with an expanded crit range over something like Thunder-forged?

I think that your Sapphire Sting may be better than TF against targets with up to 50% fort (effectively 0% on this build without gear). In addition to the expanded threat range of the Sapphire sting (15-20/x4 (90% bonus) in DC versus 17-20/x4 (60% bonus) for TF), it also has the very useful 25% Ranged Alacrity, the highest available in the game. It also has Improved Destruction, which can be incredibly useful in boss fights where people graze or don't bypass all of the boss's fort. For a boss, with Mark of the Hunter applied and Destruction fully stacked, you decrease their AC by 30 and their fort by 45%, which should really increase the amount of dps the party as a whole does to things like Harry (Somewhere on the order of +10 to +25% chance to hit, depending on the AC).

[CThruTheEgo]

I think that your Sapphire Sting may be better than TF against targets with up to 50% fort (effectively 0% on this build without gear). In addition to the expanded threat range of the Sapphire sting (15-20/x4 (90% bonus) in DC versus 17-20/x4 (60% bonus) for TF), it also has the very useful 25% Ranged Alacrity, the highest available in the game. It also has Improved Destruction, which can be incredibly useful in boss fights where people graze or don't bypass all of the boss's fort. For a boss, with Mark of the Hunter applied and Destruction fully stacked, you decrease their AC by 30 and their fort by 45%, which should really increase the amount of dps the party as a whole does to things like Harry (Somewhere on the order of +10 to +25% chance to hit, depending on the AC).

Nice analysis gwonbush. With the prior comments about Pinion, I started thinking about how Pinion and Epic Sapphire Sting compare. Sapphire Sting seems the clear winner. Is there something I'm missing that makes Pinion a better alternative than Sapphire Sting? Based on your comments, gwonbush, I can see the advantages that Sapphire Sting has over Thunder-Forged. So I'm now thinking Sapphire Sting will be my default bow.

[blerkington]

Hi,

Another interesting build, thanks for posting it.

You could swap empower for maximise, use CSW instead of cocoon and then have a twist for something else. With a decent amount of positive spellpower and healing amp, CSW heals for a decent amount though it costs more SP. That may be less of of a problem for a ranged build which is being hit less than a melee.

Stay frosty from shiradi is an excellent cheap twist if you don't have enough fate points to squeeze in whistler.

Thanks.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

not sure if the wiki has been updated with the new crit ranges post 28.1, but assuming pinion and sapphire sting have the same crit range:

sting is 5d8 base

pinion is 2.5[2d6] base (basically 5d6)

so sting starts off slightly ahead there, but i think that additional +[w] benefits pinion more.


sting has human bane and maiming

pinion has shrieking

assuming maiming damage isnt increased by class bonuses to weapon crit multis, i think maiming still wins with a 25% crit chance. and human bane is...whatever

sting has superior alacrity bonus and potential rp.



to be honest i hadnt even thought of considering sting as a weapon choice against non fort targets, and after looking at it pinion is closer than i thought it would be, but sting is semi surprisingly a pretty good choice there.

[CThruTheEgo]

You could swap empower for maximise, use CSW instead of cocoon and then have a twist for something else. With a decent amount of positive spellpower and healing amp, CSW heals for a decent amount though it costs more SP. That may be less of of a problem for a ranged build which is being hit less than a melee.

That's not a bad idea. Given that I created this build for legendary elite, and healing is essentially useless there, cocoon is probably not an ideal twist.

Stay frosty from shiradi is an excellent cheap twist if you don't have enough fate points to squeeze in whistler.

I don't plan to twist Otto's whistler on this build even though I realize that's standard for ranged builds. It only works on enemies that are moving and, with the emphasis on paralyzing arrows, I'm not expecting enemies to be moving much.

Pin, on the other hand, induces helplessness in enemies that are not moving, which they won't be if they're paralyzed. Paralyzed mobs are not considered helpless. So the combination of paralyzing arrows with a solid DC, pin, and sense weakness, is effectively a straight dps increase.

I've been contemplating taking the arcane archer capstone instead of deepwood stalker's. That would require me to drop human damage boost, however. If I do that, I'll probably twist stay frosty. If I end up keeping human damage boost, then I'll probably twist extra action boosts.

[blerkington]

Hi,

There will be times enemies make their saves against your arrows and also times you miss your target thanks to the jumped up ACs in LE content. I guess it will be a matter of playtesting to see if pin and paralysis is enough by itself.

An alternative approach might be just to rely pin, whistler and stay frosty for CC, and not use paralysing arrows at all. The advantage of whistler is that it also induces helplessness, so if you can use it well it's an additional damage boost too.

For many fights those three will be enough and using a damage imbue will improve your damage output considerably. I know that's a little bit counter to the theme of your build, but not being required to support the DC of your paralysing arrows will make it possible to do other things with your build and gear differently too.

You probably already know this, but sniper shot in DWS will cause moving enemies to stop momentarily, so if you're quick you can get a pin onto them even if they are already after you.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing how this works out for you.

Thanks.

[CThruTheEgo]

There will be times enemies make their saves against your arrows and also times you miss your target thanks to the jumped up ACs in LE content. I guess it will be a matter of playtesting to see if pin and paralysis is enough by itself.

I am relying on the reports of others, but a 73 DC on enchantment spells has been reported to land consistently in legendary elite. So assuming 73 is no fail, a 62 DC with paralyzing arrows means 1 in 2 arrows should paralyze them. With a high rate of fire, that should offer some pretty reliable CC. To hit may be a problem but I'll just have to wait and see.

Currently, yes, this is all just theorycrafting. Playtesting will determine how effective it is and I'll make adjustments accordingly.

An alternative approach might be just to rely pin, whistler and stay frosty for CC, and not use paralysing arrows at all.

The effects of pin and whistler depend on the state of the enemy (i.e. whether they are moving or not) when you hit them with it. That, coupled with a 15 second cooldown on each, is not reliable enough to provide the kind of CC I'm looking for. And I'm not interested in merely slowing mobs down because slowed mobs can still one shot players on legendary elite. I want to completely immobilize them and paralyzing arrows seems like the best option for that goal.

The advantage of whistler is that it also induces helplessness, so if you can use it well it's an additional damage boost too.

Does whistler induce helplessness also? I wasn't sure about this. Wiki does not say that it does, even though it does for pin.

For many fights those three will be enough and using a damage imbue will improve your damage output considerably. I know that's a little bit counter to the theme of your build, but not being required to support the DC of your paralysing arrows will make it possible to do other things with your build and gear differently too.

My main priorities with this build were twofold: try out a full time bow user and be effective in legendary elite content. Being able to offer a group reliable CC in LE content is far more valuable than a little more dps imo. The investment is minimal for an effective paralyzing arrows DC. 1 feat, 1 twist, and 2 gear slots is really a minor investment for a solid CC option. Losing the elemental arrow imbue is the biggest dps loss, but that's really about it. And against enemies immune to paralyzing arrows (i.e. bosses), I'll have that extra damage anyway.

[blerkington]

Hi,

Whistler definitely does induce helplessness if you hit your target while it's moving. It can be a little tricky to use because of the mobs stop-start movement. Pin does not work exactly as described either. As far as I can tell, it does not slow enemies if you hit them when they are already moving.

Being able to get a very high doubleshot is very useful now that hitting things is no longer a given. I think this is definitely one of the strengths of your build, and not having to scroll Tenser's all the time to improve your BAB is a very nice benefit. So please don't take my questions as criticism of your build. It looks good on paper and I think it will work well in game too.

The other thing I've been wondering is how well sacred ground will work for healing on an archer, especially in LE content where you're probably going to have to move around a bit more than normal due to the high HP and damage output enemies have. The AOE looks a little small to me but it seems like other people are making it work.

Thanks.

[CThruTheEgo]

Whistler definitely does induce helplessness if you hit your target while it's moving. It can be a little tricky to use because of the mobs stop-start movement. Pin does not work exactly as described either. As far as I can tell, it does not slow enemies if you hit them when they are already moving.

Thanks for the clarifications. I'm new to full time bow builds, so this is a learning process for me.

So please don't take my questions as criticism of your build. It looks good on paper and I think it will work well in game too.

Certainly not. I appreciate the feedback. I was just trying to clarify my own priorities and goals with the build.

The other thing I've been wondering is how well sacred ground will work for healing on an archer, especially in LE content where you're probably going to have to move around a bit more than normal due to the high HP and damage output enemies have. The AOE looks a little small to me but it seems like other people are making it work.

I've been wondering about this as well actually. I imagine there will be times it will work well, and others when it is basically useless. The crit range, doubleshot, and ranged power are my main motivations for using divine crusader. I'm sure I'll try this build in dreadnaught as well to compare the two. They seem like the better destinies for more consistent dps, whereas fury is still the best for burst dps, which I'm not particularly interested in.

[gwonbush]

About your favored enemies: I'd consider dropping construct for human considering how many human enemies were added from Updates 19-25 (or elf for Legendary Tempest's Spine and some of the MoTU content if you run that). The only real constructs you have to deal with in endgame are the Inevitable and the Codex in LTS and Legendary shroud, and if you feel like you need more damage on them you could always use the favored enemy from Primal (which only has a choice between Undead, Aberration and Construct, all of which you took).

If you don't care about the twist or in destiny potential, elemental is another choice to drop since they are in low supply in epics (only really in TOEE part 2 and some fire eles and mephits in legendary raids) and aren't that threatening. The classical reason for Rangers to choose Elemental is because their Fortification was annoying and you took them as favored enemies to offset that dps loss.

[CThruTheEgo]

About your favored enemies: I'd consider dropping construct for human considering how many human enemies were added from Updates 19-25 (or elf for Legendary Tempest's Spine and some of the MoTU content if you run that). The only real constructs you have to deal with in endgame are the Inevitable and the Codex in LTS and Legendary shroud, and if you feel like you need more damage on them you could always use the favored enemy from Primal (which only has a choice between Undead, Aberration and Construct, all of which you took).

If you don't care about the twist or in destiny potential, elemental is another choice to drop since they are in low supply in epics (only really in TOEE part 2 and some fire eles and mephits in legendary raids) and aren't that threatening. The classical reason for Rangers to choose Elemental is because their Fortification was annoying and you took them as favored enemies to offset that dps loss.

Actually, I've been contemplating taking the arcane archer capstone instead of deepwood stalker's. That only leaves 39 AP to spend in deepwood stalker, which doesn't allow for all tier 5s. For me, it's a choice between head shot or extra favored enemy. I'd like to start with head shot and see how I like it. That means I need to figure out which favored enemy to drop. I think you've convinced me that elemental should be the first one to go. You're right, taking elemental as a favored enemy is more convention that need in the current game. I like construct for shroud portals also, so I'd rather keep that. And I don't/won't have enough fate points to be able to twist primal avatar's favored enemy, so that isn't an option for me.

[Garix]

Actually, I've been contemplating taking the arcane archer capstone instead of deepwood stalker's. That only leaves 39 AP to spend in deepwood stalker, which doesn't allow for all tier 5s. For me, it's a choice between head shot or extra favored enemy. I'd like to start with head shot and see how I like it. That means I need to figure out which favored enemy to drop. I think you've convinced me that elemental should be the first one to go. You're right, taking elemental as a favored enemy is more convention that need in the current game. I like construct for shroud portals also, so I'd rather keep that. And I don't/won't have enough fate points to be able to twist primal avatar's favored enemy, so that isn't an option for me.

I've run with both but most definitely prefer the DWS capstone. It's possible (in the majority of quests) to keep a decent distance between you and the oncoming mobs. With imp. deception, sniper shot and head shot the loss of sneak attack at range made a noticable difference to how quick things died.

I also prefer to have 8 free APs which you'll lose going 41/39 AA/DWS split (obviously) but that's more a personal preference than anything deal breaking.

Edit: should add I'm so!o only with my archer, the loss of the DWS capstone is probably less felt in a group.

[CThruTheEgo]

I've run with both but most definitely prefer the DWS capstone. It's possible (in the majority of quests) to keep a decent distance between you and the oncoming mobs. With imp. deception, sniper shot and head shot the loss of sneak attack at range made a noticable difference to how quick things died.

I also prefer to have 8 free APs which you'll lose going 41/39 AA/DWS split (obviously) but that's more a personal preference than anything deal breaking.

Edit: should add I'm so!o only with my archer, the loss of the DWS capstone is probably less felt in a group.

That's about the conclusion I came to based on my napkin math. Deepwood stalker capstone pulls ahead when enemies would be out of point blank shot range if you didn't have it, and also with full/most stacks of zeal. With fewer stacks of zeal, which is most of the time, and when in point blank shot range, arcane archer's capstone pulls ahead. Those conclusions were not reached with fully detailed math, just rough calculations. Either way, they seem pretty close. And I can see that you'd get more value out of the DWS capstone when soloing.

I LRed into this build today and went with the AA capstone. I do not yet have all the gear to get the listed DC, so I decided an extra 20% doubleshot would be more useful to provide more chances for mobs to fail their saves. After I gear up more fully, I'll switch to the DWS capstone to compare.

[LordPiglet]

I am aware that insightful spell focus can be found on lootgen, but the armor also offers some other nice effects. Between elemental arrows and the electric damage from scion of air, the quality potency should add more damage per hit than the quality deadly from the Avenger Leathers. And the Archer Leathers don't really offer anything I'm interested in. The sneak attack damage from shadowscale armor would be nice, but comes out to roughly the same damage as the quality potency adds.



If you're building for spell power, the 2d20 damage from the elemental scion feats offers more dps than the 20 melee/ranged power of arborea. Here are my comments on how these compare quoted from my Count of Monte Cristo build:

You're right in that scion of the plane of air is better. I run that on my tempest with the same armor (I don't have a TOEE set).

the down side is that the 4% dodge cap only works if you're wearing an outfit, as it doesn't increase max dex bonus on armor. I think my actually dodge is 29, but I can't hit it without twisting in lithe due to the mdb restrictions on the armor. Lithe is really good, but I'd have to earn 4 points through ETR that I don't feel like grinding out right now.

[kendo]

That's about the conclusion I came to based on my napkin math. Deepwood stalker capstone pulls ahead when enemies would be out of point blank shot range if you didn't have it, and also with full/most stacks of zeal. With fewer stacks of zeal, which is most of the time, and when in point blank shot range, arcane archer's capstone pulls ahead. Those conclusions were not reached with fully detailed math, just rough calculations. Either way, they seem pretty close. And I can see that you'd get more value out of the DWS capstone when soloing.

I LRed into this build today and went with the AA capstone. I do not yet have all the gear to get the listed DC, so I decided an extra 20% doubleshot would be more useful to provide more chances for mobs to fail their saves. After I gear up more fully, I'll switch to the DWS capstone to compare.

is there a good way to estimate 25 meters in game? though you lose unlimited sneak attack range by dropping the DWS capstone, you still get the 5 meters per core ability but I have no idea if that's of any real value or not.

definitely looking forward to your updates as you get a chance to put theory into practice. I have been looking to build a pure ranger since the updates and this looks to be almost exactly what I had in mind. going for more consistent damage and something other than just maxed DPS

[CThruTheEgo]

You're right in that scion of the plane of air is better. I run that on my tempest with the same armor (I don't have a TOEE set).

the down side is that the 4% dodge cap only works if you're wearing an outfit, as it doesn't increase max dex bonus on armor. I think my actually dodge is 29, but I can't hit it without twisting in lithe due to the mdb restrictions on the armor. Lithe is really good, but I'd have to earn 4 points through ETR that I don't feel like grinding out right now.

Max dex bonus is 24 on the new Celestial Avenger and Archer Leathers, but only 20 on the Celestial Sage Leathers. It's unfortunate that the Sage Leathers have a much lower max dex bonus than the other two, especially since the Sage Leathers are the ones with dodge on them.

This build will be able to reach 27 dodge, but is limited to 24 based on the max dex bonus with the guild buff and an armored agility augment. I'm only losing out on 3 dodge, so that's not too bad I guess.

is there a good way to estimate 25 meters in game? though you lose unlimited sneak attack range by dropping the DWS capstone, you still get the 5 meters per core ability but I have no idea if that's of any real value or not.

Point blank shot starts out with a 15 meter range. 5 deepwood stalker cores add another 25 meters for a total of 40 meters of point blank shot and sneak attack range.

The /loc command will show you your location in meters. You can use it in different locations to determine the difference between them. That is not practical in the middle of combat, but you can use it to get a sense for what 40 meters looks like in the game, and then try to apply that during combat. That's really the only way to know.

I think Garix is right. You'd get much more use out of unlimited point blank shot/sneak attack range while soloing, but 40 meters is probably plenty sufficient in a group.

[CThruTheEgo]

That's about the conclusion I came to based on my napkin math. Deepwood stalker capstone pulls ahead when enemies would be out of point blank shot range if you didn't have it, and also with full/most stacks of zeal. With fewer stacks of zeal, which is most of the time, and when in point blank shot range, arcane archer's capstone pulls ahead. Those conclusions were not reached with fully detailed math, just rough calculations. Either way, they seem pretty close. And I can see that you'd get more value out of the DWS capstone when soloing.

I LRed into this build today and went with the AA capstone. I do not yet have all the gear to get the listed DC, so I decided an extra 20% doubleshot would be more useful to provide more chances for mobs to fail their saves. After I gear up more fully, I'll switch to the DWS capstone to compare.

TL;DR The deepwood stalker capstone offers more damage for this build than the arcane archer capstone.

So I just finished doing some more detailed calculations using this particular build's numbers. Some of those numbers had to be estimated due to the lack of a complete gear set. I hate the new lootgen system for the sole reason that it makes creating a final gear set nearly impossible, but I digress...

I calculated average damage per shot based on the following conditions:
1) AA capstone out of point blank shot range with no bursts
2) AA capstone in point blank shot range with no bursts
3) AA capstone out of point blank shot range with max bursts
4) AA capstone in point blank shot range with max bursts
5) DWS capstone with no bursts
6) DWS capstone with max bursts

The bursts included were zeal, killer, manyshot, and ranged power boost. Favored enemy damage was included in all calculations. I chose these conditions to simplify the number of calculations I had to do. There are certainly a multitude of other conditions I could have chosen. I did not include human damage boost as part of the bursts, but this would only pull deepwood stalker further ahead as I would not have it with the arcane archer capstone setup (I'd rather have mark of the hunted for bosses and I wouldn't want to give up yet another deepwood stalker tier 5).

Out of point blank shot range deepwood stalker was the clear winner, by about 13% without the boosts, and about 23% with them. In point blank shot range, with no bursts (i.e. zero stacks of zeal and killer while not using manyshot or ranged power boost), the arcane archer and deepwood stalker capstones came out almost exactly the same, though deepwood stalker was ahead by about 1%. In point blank shot range, with max bursts (i.e. full stacks of killer and zeal while using manyshot and ranged power boost), deepwood stalker was ahead by about 8%.

I can post the full calculations I used if anyone is interested in seeing them. Based on these results, I'll be sticking with the deepwood stalker capstone as listed in the OP. The ranged power from the deepwood stalker capstone really seems to amplify base sneak attack damage and the extra damage from know the angles. Due to the gear I currently have, my paralyzing arrows DC is 59. It's really only wisdom gear that I'm missing (currently a 48 wis), and that simply requires getting lucky with loot pulls or the auction house. So it should be easy enough to upgrade my DC and, in the meantime, I'll go ahead and switch to the deepwood stalker capstone.

[CThruTheEgo]

In case anyone is interested, here is the current gear set I was able to put together with named loot I already had and whatever lootgen I could find on the auction house. It could certainly use some improvements, but that is the problem with random loot - it's random.

Weapon: Epic Sapphire Sting (greater human bane/improved destruction/greater maiming/ranged alacrity25/purple slotted positive spell power 138)
Armor: Shadowscale (2d6 sneak attack/1 profane reflex/deathblock/fort130/ghostly/from the shadows/green slooted draconic soul gem/blue slotted spooky wis2)
Goggles: int13/insightful enchantment focus2
Helm: wis13/accuracy19
Neck: Necklace of Mystic Eidolons (ghostly/ins dex4/ins con4/deathblock/augment summons/eidolon summons/green slotted good luck2)
Trinket: pale green ioun stone (vitality40/xp5%)
Cloak: prismatic cloak (cold absorption30/spellcraft20/green slotted Globe of True Imperial Blood)
Belt: doubleshot8/false life50
Ring swap: Avithoul Seal (wis2/improved deception/sneak attack5/insightful sneak attack3)
Gloves: magnetism145/deadly11
Boots: dex14/insightful balance10
Ring: Legendary Brazenband (enchantment focus6/insightful dodge6/speed14/insightful evocation focus2/yellow slotted enchantment focus2)
Bracers: resistance10/con13
Quiver: EE Quiver of Poison