New druid epic feat worth it?

[HastyPudding]

I've been contemplating if the new caster level feat (the +10 max caster levels to a few druid spells) is worth it as a pure druid. It seems nice on paper, but I'm not sure; most druid casters aren't in a primal destiny, thus they automatically lose 6 caster levels. Without a lot of caster levels, increasing your maximum caster levels is kind of pointless.

I already took the embolden metamagic. If this caster level feat turns out to be a sham, I would take either intensify or maybe epic mental toughness (considering all spell focus feats have already been taken).

Thoughts?

[unbongwah]

I guess for druid casters, it's a toss-up between Exalted Angel and Shiradi. EA is better if you want to focus on light dmg, but as you say Shiradi is the one which boosts your caster lvls and the free procs don't hurt.

I wish Primal Avatar had more going for it for caster builds. I really want to believe summoning is actually worthwhile with the new epic summoning feat etc., but I can't quite persuade myself it's true...

[HastyPudding]

I guess for druid casters, it's a toss-up between Exalted Angel and Shiradi. EA is better if you want to focus on light dmg, but as you say Shiradi is the one which boosts your caster lvls and the free procs don't hurt.

I wish Primal Avatar had more going for it for caster builds. I really want to believe summoning is actually worthwhile with the new epic summoning feat etc., but I can't quite persuade myself it's true...

I LOVE primal avatar it's just that, if you're going for DC's (which any DC caster druid in their right mind should) then exalted angel is better, hands down.

I will never, ever, make a shiradi caster of any sort. I dislike that shiradi even works with spells, as it makes lazy casters, detracts from the devs fixing DC casting, and invalidates past lives and DC's.

[Vooduspyce]

I wish Primal Avatar had more going for it for caster builds. I really want to believe summoning is actually worthwhile with the new epic summoning feat etc., but I can't quite persuade myself it's true...

I feel ya. I am hoping that the druid pass (whenever that comes) will do more for summoning. The direction they are going in leads me to think it will. I'd love to make one of my druids a summoner.

[goodspeed]

has anyone tested that new feat? I don't think its giving all the levels. It seems like its missing between 4 or 5 levels when I see what lv im casting from. Even heighten makes no difference. I think creeping cold is lv 18 max im casting it at lv 22.

Anyone test the numbers for certain cause while I didn't write em down it doesn't seem as though a great or even a long step has been given toward the sla's. Id say the meta extra spell power might be better.

While talking on that, does the new extra spellpower meta epic feat stack with maximize feat? It only states empower.

[Vooduspyce]

does the new extra spellpower meta epic feat stack with maximize feat? It only states empower.

I use Intensify Spell on all my casters. It adds 75 spell power. The "Empower" qualifier is just saying that it will function on any spell that Empower works on. So basically every damage or healing spell except Heal, Mass Heal, Regenerate and Mass Regenerate. So the simple answer is yes, it will work with Maximize. Maximize adds +150 spell power, Empower adds +75 spell power and Intensify adds another +75 spell power.

[edit]: I see they've changed the wording from the original lamania version. It now states that "This bonus stacks with empower" so is kinda confusing, but as far as I know and can tell it also stacks with Maximize.

[Vooduspyce]

has anyone tested that new feat? I don't think its giving all the levels. It seems like its missing between 4 or 5 levels when I see what lv im casting from. Even heighten makes no difference. I think creeping cold is lv 18 max im casting it at lv 22.

Anyone test the numbers for certain cause while I didn't write em down it doesn't seem as though a great or even a long step has been given toward the sla's. Id say the meta extra spell power might be better.

I just got done running some tests and I took video, which I hope to post later tonight with data. But I saw the same issues as you with caster level changing minimally, if at all, according to the combat log. The numbers, for all 4 spells affected by Master of the Wilds were either basically the same, or only slightly better with produce flame which appeared to be casting 2 levels higher with Master of the Wilds.

Conclusion: It's broken... for now. Don't waste your time with it til it's fixed. I'll take another look at it if they report a fix.

[Rawrargh]

has anyone tested that new feat? I don't think its giving all the levels. It seems like its missing between 4 or 5 levels when I see what lv im casting from. Even heighten makes no difference. I think creeping cold is lv 18 max im casting it at lv 22.

Anyone test the numbers for certain cause while I didn't write em down it doesn't seem as though a great or even a long step has been given toward the sla's. Id say the meta extra spell power might be better.

While talking on that, does the new extra spellpower meta epic feat stack with maximize feat? It only states empower.

The feat doesn't add caster levels, it adds MAX caster levels, quick breakdown:

Creping Cold MCL
18 base
3 water elemental
1 Tide SH core
2 SH capstone
1 time and tide t5 SH
10 feat
3 [Color] Dragon Spell Knowledge(twist)

29 (39 with feat)

Creeping Cold CL
20 base
3 water elemental
1 Time SH core
2 SH capstone
1 time and tide
5 primal avatar cores/shiradi cores/fury of the wild
3 [Color] Dragon Spell Knowledge(twist)

35

Of course if you're not pure you give up a bunch of caster levels too, same if you run EA and I doubt anyone twists CL's from draconic.

[Vooduspyce]

The feat doesn't add caster levels, it adds MAX caster levels, quick breakdown:

Creping Cold MCL
18 base
3 water elemental
1 Tide SH core
2 SH capstone
1 time and tide t5 SH
10 feat
3 [Color] Dragon Spell Knowledge(twist)

29 (39 with feat)

Creeping Cold CL
20 base
3 water elemental
1 Time SH core
2 SH capstone
1 time and tide
5 primal avatar cores/shiradi cores/fury of the wild
3 [Color] Dragon Spell Knowledge(twist)

35

Of course if you're not pure you give up a bunch of caster levels too, same if you run EA and I doubt anyone twists CL's from draconic.

I thought they already implemented the changes to the way caster level was calculated, but apparently not. They are supposed to be changing it so that epic levels are added to caster level (thus not ED based). I couldn't find it in a quick read of the release notes, so looks like this hasn't happened yet. Not sure when this change will happen but I think it's supposed to happen soon and it should have a big impact on the performance of the "Master of" feats.

[slarden]

I thought they already implemented the changes to the way caster level was calculated, but apparently not. They are supposed to be changing it so that epic levels are added to caster level (thus not ED based). I couldn't find it in a quick read of the release notes, so looks like this hasn't happened yet. Not sure when this change will happen but I think it's supposed to happen soon and it should have a big impact on the performance of the "Master of" feats.

There was a thread with some suggestions about this, but it was just to get feedback and as far as I know there was never a firm dev plan to make this change. I could be wrong.

[goodspeed]

There was a thread with some suggestions about this, but it was just to get feedback and as far as I know there was never a firm dev plan to make this change. I could be wrong.

so in the end the use off the flawless was for naught. Well I suppose i'll switch it to intensify until something or other fixes it. Took it on the sorc but im gonna tr him soon anyway to fix it all from the start up.

[Vooduspyce]

Below is the video I made where I discuss my experimenting with Master of the Wilds.

Here are the basics for those that just want to see the numbers:

In the experiment, for each of the 4 spells affected by the feat, I took 10 data points before and after taking Master of the Wilds.
For Creeping Cold and Produce Flame, I made sure to be in the same winter/summer season both before and after.
I also got rid of Empyrian Magic so that the damage I was doing with Produce Flame wouldn't scale unintentionally.
For Call Lightning and Produce Flame I used spiders in the Vale of Twilight as my test subjects. For Word of Balance I used Vale troglodytes. For Creeping Cold I needed a mob with greater hit points, so I used mudmen from EE Don't Drink the Water. The Creeping Cold data reflects the final damage ticked in each casting.
I did this in Unyielding Sentinel ED.

Here is the data I collected. In each column the data is ordered from highest to lowest.

w/o MW = without Master of the Wilds
w/MW = with Master of the Wilds
CL=caster level as indicated by the combat log, which did not indicate a caster level for WOB
% diff = "with Master" average as a percentage of "without Master" average.




Here is the video where I discuss what I did and go over the findings...

[Kuunkukka]

Thanks for the study on this matter, the results are pretty... awful.

I tested the feat in the Dojo in Lammannia, and also did get quite a variable results. I actually did a few tries to get it working, using LR stones to respec the character in between the tries. My first experience was that the feat does nothing, as it seems to be the case in your tests.

However, after 2 respecs, various relogs and switching around of epic destinies, I suddenly started to crit over 7k on stunned kobolds with Call Lightning SLA. Shiradi with Nerve Venom proc + Sense Weakness twisted in. Electric spell power around 450, Scion of plane of Fire. No idea what happened, or why.

I have not had a chance to test the feat in Live, and I'm also a bit suspicious of picking it now. But apparently, in some obscure conditions, it did seem to give the expected results.

[goodspeed]

Thanks for the testing. I ended up trading the feat for spell power. Had a bit of an increase. Though with what I've seen dcs or not packing in the power seems more a net gain.

[goodspeed]

Blank blank of blank double post random words so on

[unbongwah]

2 SH capstone

This only applies to Conjuration & Transmutation spells; the four SLAs covered by MoW are Evocation.

I did this in Unyielding Sentinel ED.

Why use US instead of Shiradi for testing? Don't you need the extra caster levels from Primal ED lvls to hit their full potential?

[Sunnie]

Here is the data I collected. In each column the data is ordered from highest to lowest.

w/o MW = without Master of the Wilds
w/MW = with Master of the Wilds
CL=caster level as indicated by the combat log, which did not indicate a caster level for WOB
% diff = "with Master" average as a percentage of "without Master" average.

It looks like the number are a bit skewed due to different amounts of critical hits and saves for partial damage.

I think Call Lightning is a little further ahead actually, since it looks like you critted twice w/o MW, and only once w/ MW and a mob saved against it w/ MW. That ends up being another 190 average damage on the right-hand side, putting the additional damage from MW at around +36% total instead of 21%.

Creeping Cold critted 4 times w/o and 2 times w/ MW. 2 more crits on the right-hand side would easily add another 100 average damage, bringing it ahead by +15% or so.

Produce Flame looks accurate, 2 crits for both, no saves.

WoB has one crit w/o and zero crits w/ MW. But even accounting for that it looks like MW does nothing for the spell, the damage numbers are virtually identical.


edit: Or, as Unbongwah pointed out, you don't have enough caster levels to fully benefit from the increased maximum caster level.

[Vooduspyce]

This only applies to Conjuration & Transmutation spells; the four SLAs covered by MoW are Evocation.

Why use US instead of Shiradi for testing? Don't you need the extra caster levels from Primal ED lvls to hit their full potential?

I did a short bit of testing in Shiradi after the initial tests. The numbers were better but certainly nothing worth taking the feat for imo and it wasn't showing me casting them 10 levels higher

I used US because that's the destiny I run in. A lot of druid casters don't run in primal destinies, so it's good to show that this feat does nothing for them.

[Vooduspyce]

It looks like the number are a bit skewed due to different amounts of critical hits and saves for partial damage.

I think Call Lightning is a little further ahead actually, since it looks like you critted twice w/o MW, and only once w/ MW and a mob saved against it w/ MW. That ends up being another 190 average damage on the right-hand side, putting the additional damage from MW at around +36% total instead of 21%.

My methods aren't perfect, as I discuss in the video, but I think this gives a more than good enough idea of performance. In any event, I recalculated without the top 2 numbers and without the bottom set and come up with a 30% increase with MW. 21%/30%/36%... same conclusion that it's not worth it.

Creeping Cold critted 4 times w/ and 2 times w/o MW. 2 more crits on the right-hand side would easily add another 100 average damage, bringing it ahead by +15% or so.

Still not worth it.

Produce Flame looks accurate, 2 crits for both, no saves.

WoB has one crit w/o and zero crits w/ MW. But even accounting for that it looks like MW does nothing for the spell, the damage numbers are virtually identical.


edit: Or, as Unbongwah pointed out, you don't have enough caster levels to fully benefit from the increased maximum caster level.

I did some testing in shiradi and didn't see an improvement that would in any way warrant taking the feat. I think it's sad that the feat essentially requires us to be in a primal destiny to benefit from it. I really hope they make the caster level changes that they are considering, which is to make epic levels be the determining factor of caster level, instead of epic destiny levels.

For everyone's curiosity's sake, I think I'll come up with another set of numbers when in Primal Avatar. I'll do it in PA, so I don't have to weed through the Shiradi procs to find the numbers I'm looking for...

[Sunnie]

I agree there're some odd things going on there and you're not seeing the improvement you should see (provided you can take maximum advantage of the feat). I took the corresponding feat for my sorcerer, and saw a jump in damage of about 50%, which was a tad less than expected since the MCL of the affected spells and SLAs went from 18 to 28, but the combat log reports my casting level as being 36, so...

Part of the problem may be that druids simply don't get the same bonuses to CL and MCL as Sorcs do. The cores already give me +5 MCL and +7 CL, Season's Herald provides +3 to both for a druid and another +1 from elemental form.


So if we take Creeping Cold with its normal MCL of 18 + 4 (from Season's Herald and Water ele form) for a total MCL of 22. And your actual Caster Level really is 25 as the log reports, then yeah, you'll only see an increase of around 14% going from casting at 22 to 25 since you're not filling up the remaining 7 levels you gained to your MCL for it. That's about the result I got when adjusting your numbers for crits.

Produce Flame and Call Lightning have a MCL of 15 + 4 (as above), so ordinarily you're casting those at 19. Which leads me to one odd thing: Your caster levels being all over the place. From what I understand, the combat log reports the highest caster level you've reached for the type of spell you're casting, and not the actual level at which you're casting the spell as limited by the MCL. If your Call Lightning really were just going from 21 to 22 you'd see just a 5% increase in damage, and not the 36% (adjusted for crits and saves) that you are seeing. Those 36% would be in line with MoW allowing you to take full advantage of the 25 CLs you have, giving you another 6 on top of the ones you have, and 4 yet unfilled.
The 37% you got for Produce Flame also fit that calculation.

And as for WoB, does it even have a MCL? The wiki doesn't list one and I have no high level druids I could check the in-game spell description on.