Can I fit Warlock into a tank build?

[Thrudh]

So I was planning on a 16/4 (or maybe 12/8) fighter/paladin tactics tank build... going mostly fighter for the ton of extra feats and the new tactical feats.

Goal was basically to use Sacred Defender, along with Vanguard, KotC to get Divine Might and some extra Lay-on-hands, and Kensai for Haste Boost, Tactics bonus, Extra Action Boosts, and maybe Power Surge.

Tactics would be Trip, Stunning Blow, and Stunning Shield.

Self-healing in epics would come mostly from twisted in Consecrated Ground, or Unyielding Sentinals Mass-heals (which is why I'd want a lot of lay-on-hands). Probably both in really tough content.


But I've been looking at Warlock, and 6 levels of Warlock, along with a ton of AP into Enlightened Spirit looks very interesting.

36 AP points and 6 levels of Warlock gets me
+19 PRR/MRR
+15 hp
75% hate
+2 CON
Every 4 seconds, 30-50 or so temp hp (100 after level 20)
+20 Healing Amp
600 temp hp or so every 20 seconds
Self-cast Displacement!

And Dark Delirium, another CC option (no-save!).

But that's a LOT of AP. But those are some very nice defenses.

I'd want 1 AP for human Damage Boost, 4 AP in Kensai for Haste Boost

Sacred Defender stuff I want costs 26 AP.. I "might" be able to give up 3 or 6 of that (but that's +6 STR and 50% more AC from armor)

To get Stunning Shield from Vanguard will cost me 6 AP, although I could easily see myself spending 12 there for +3 stun DC, and Deflect Arrows every 2 seconds.

Anyway, that totals 73 (79 if I get the +3 stun DC, and Deflect Arrows)

So I'd have to give up on Divine Might from KotC. Ugh.

Is warlock a good choice here? Or should I focus more on mixing and matching between Sacred Defender, Stalwart Defender, and maxing out Vanguard? I have 3 displacement clickables, so the self-cast displacement isn't really absolutely needed. How good is the temp hp from warlock? Seems that would be very very nice on a defensive tank build.

[unbongwah]

I think going S&B is a bridge too far on this build concept, as you'd need to split your APs between VG, ES, SD, and KotC; plus heavy MCing means giving up the higher-level VG cores, which are really nice. Instead, I would suggest considering a warlock variant on Steel Shrine: SWF pal 14 / war 6 or 15/5. [Pal 15 means more DPS from Zeal; war 6 means 1-sec. reduction on aura proc rate + Dark Delirium.] Rather than the free heals from Ameliorating Strike, you go for the free temp HPs from ES. So something like 36 APs ES, 13-24 APs SD, a few APs human, the rest into KotC. Without ftr or monk splash, feats are tight but doable: SWF x3, Power Atk or Precision, Improved + Overwhelming Crit - that leaves 3 heroic and 3 epic feat slots, plus your ED and Legendary one.

[Thrudh]

I think going S&B is a bridge too far on this build concept, as you'd need to split your APs between VG, ES, SD, and KotC; plus heavy MCing means giving up the higher-level VG cores, which are really nice. Instead, I would suggest considering a warlock variant on Steel Shrine: SWF pal 14 / war 6 or 15/5. [Pal 15 means more DPS from Zeal; war 6 means 1-sec. reduction on aura proc rate + Dark Delirium.] Rather than the free heals from Ameliorating Strike, you go for the free temp HPs from ES. So something like 36 APs ES, 13-24 APs SD, a few APs human, the rest into KotC. Without ftr or monk splash, feats are tight but doable: SWF x3, Power Atk or Precision, Improved + Overwhelming Crit - that leaves 3 heroic and 3 epic feat slots, plus your ED and Legendary one.

The only reason I don't want to go majority paladin is because I want to focus on tactics, so I want access to the fighter tactical feats.... (and I TR my alts rather slow, so this guy will probably still be around when the fighter pass comes out)

I really like the idea of having 4 different CC options (stunning blow, trip, stunning shield, and Dark Delirium), and then Dire Charge at 29....

My main worry is DPS... Is taking all that Warlock defensive stuff going to destroy my DPS?

[unbongwah]

Considering you're talking about a majority-ftr build before the ftr pass, you're already tanking your DPS, so hey - how much worse could it get with warlock as well?

[Thrudh]

Considering you're talking about a majority-ftr build before the ftr pass, you're already tanking your DPS, so hey - how much worse could it get with warlock as well?

Heh, good point

He'll be a beast in heroic anyway. I need to farm some mysterious remnants anyway (I bought the Traveller's Trunk with the boosts), and he'll be untouchable in heroic elite with that crazy temp hp boost

[Zoda]

https://How to fit warlock into a tank build

Not exactly a sollution for your build, but it's as tank as tanks can get. And it has warlock

[unbongwah]

This isn't what you asked for (insofar as it's not a tank build), but I wondered, "Could I come up with a tactics-focused S&B majority-ftr build which still had good DPS?"

The answer was, "I dunno, but let's try it anyway!"

Rather than pally or warlock, I went bard splash for Swashbuckler: Swashbuckling + Skirmisher + Elegant Footwork + Low Blow adds DPS, survivability, and CC for 4 lvls and 21 APs. Which in turn leaves 16 lvls free for ftr to take the new DC feats. Uses rapiers so Keen Edge will stack w/Swashbuckling.

Kensei Skirmisher
16/4 Fighter/Bard
True Neutral Human


Level Order

1. Bard            6. Fighter        11. Fighter        16. Fighter
2. Bard            7. Fighter        12. Fighter        17. Fighter
3. Bard            8. Fighter        13. Fighter        18. Fighter
4. Fighter         9. Fighter        14. Fighter        19. Fighter
5. Fighter        10. Fighter        15. Fighter        20. Bard


Stats
               36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength        18       +6       4: STR
Dexterity        8       +6       8: STR
Constitution    16       +6      12: STR
Intelligence    16       +6      16: STR
Wisdom           8       +6      20: STR
Charisma         8       +6      24: STR
                                 28: STR

Skills
          B  B  B  F  F  F  F  F  F  F  F  F  F  F  F  F  F  F  F  B
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Perform   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
UMD       4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Balance   4  1  1  1                                                   7
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         12  3  3  6  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  2
         40 10 10  6  6  6  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  7  8  8  8  8  8 12


Feats

 1        : Single Weapon Fighting
 1 Human  : Shield Mastery
 3        : Power Attack
 4 Fighter: Cleave
 5 Fighter: Great Cleave
 6        : Weapon Focus: Piercing
 7 Fighter: Improved Single Weapon Fighting
 9        : Improved Critical: Piercing
 9 Fighter: Improved Shield Mastery
11 Fighter: Weapon Specialization: Piercing
12        : Greater Single Weapon Fighting
13 Fighter: Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing
15        : Tactical Mastery
15 Fighter: Stunning Blow
17 Fighter: Tactical Combatant
18        : Insightful Reflexes
19 Fighter: Tactical Supremacy
21 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic   : Combat Expertise
26 Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting
27 Epic   : Improved Trip
28 Destiny: Tactician
29 Destiny: Dire Charge
30        : Tactical Training
30 Legend : Scion of the Astral Plane


Enhancements (80 AP)

Human (1 AP)

Damage Boost

Swashbuckler (21 AP)

Confidence, Swashbuckling
Blow By Blow: Melee III, Tavern Shanties II
Sword Dance II
Elegant Footwork, Skirmisher, Resonant Arms III
Low Blow

Kensei (31 AP)

Kensei Focus: Light Blades, Spiritual Bond, Strike with No Thought, Power Surge
Extra Action Boost II, Weapon Group Specialization, Haste Boost III
Tactics III, Weapon Group Specialization
Critical Accuracy I, Weapon Group Specialization, Strength
Weapon Group Specialization, Strength
Keen Edge

Stalwart Defender (13 AP)

Toughness, Stalwart Defense
Item Defense I, Durable Defense III
Resilient Defense III, Instinctive Defense I
Strong Defense III

Vanguard (7 AP)

To the Fore!
Shield Specialization, Shield Smash II
Stunning Shield II

Harper Agent (7 AP)

Agent of Good I
Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
Know the Angles II


Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought

Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III, Strength
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack, Strength
Lay Waste
Volcano's Edge
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz

Twists of Fate (31 fate points)

Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Reign (Tier 3 Fatesinger)
Hail of Blows (Tier 2 Flowers)
Legendary Shield Mastery (Tier 2 Sentinel)

Gains +18 STR (Power Surge + Strong Defense + enhs + LD) and another +32 to DCs (tactics feats + Kensei + LD + Tactician + Scion of the Astral Plane), if I'm adding right. That's not counting the DC bonus from KtA, too. Final crit profile on rapiers will be 14-18/x3 19-20/x5 (Overwhelming Crit + Devastating Crit); add +1x multiplier if using Balizarde. +25% doublestrike from LSM + Hail of Blows + SotAP + SB & Kensei cores.

Problem with spending 21 APs in Swashie is not enough APs for VG and SD as I would like; but you could drop Swashie to 11-13 APs (Skirmisher + maybe Elegant Footwork) to beef up the other two.

Listed Twists are DPS-focused; LSM is the only must-have, IMO, so adjust as you see fit if you need, e.g., more self-healing or higher saves. Reign + PSWF is my just-for-fun combo. Plus Reign seemed like a better use of bard songs than weaksauce Inspire Courage. If you don't plan to take Reign, then you might as well swap PSWF for PTWF for extra +5% doublestrike.

[Xugx_quetoxi]

Chickenplucker, my druid bear-tank on Argo is 9 druid-Nature warden, 7 warlock-Enlightened spirit, 4 fighter-stalwart defender. You get the best buffs, excellent defense, agro & self healing with constantly refreshing temp HP. It's just not the highest DPS.

2200 HP
150 AC
305 PRR
138 MRR

[Goodgulf]

Well, I don't have Harper unlocked, and I have a question about DC bonuses from different PrEs: specifically, would (Tier2 Vanguard) Brutality stack with (Tier2 Kensei) Tactics?

GG

[unbongwah]

Chickenplucker, my druid bear-tank on Argo is 9 druid-Nature warden, 7 warlock-Enlightened spirit, 4 fighter-stalwart defender. You get the best buffs, excellent defense, agro & self healing with constantly refreshing temp HP. It's just not the highest DPS.

Interesting: rather than bear form, did you consider a tree build instead? 7 warlock aura isn't quite enough to sustain form by itself, I don't think, but with enough cleaves + Consecration (which boosts Spirit IIRC), it might work out. Feats would be a challenge, but 8 heroic + 3 ftr + 4 epic is enough for...hmmm...Natural Fighting x3, two Shield Masteries, Power Atk/CL/GC, IC:Blunt, and Overwhelming Crit with two heroic and 3 epic feats left over. TWF chain and maybe a couple of metamagics?

specifically, would (Tier2 Vanguard) Brutality stack with (Tier2 Kensei) Tactics?

AFAIK, yes.