Sorcerer needs help in epics.

[dupthemighty]

I recently started playing ddo with my wife. I started as a Sorcerer because I wanted to be a cannon of destruction. I did okayish in the heroic content but as soon as I hit epic content I quickly became helpless. We got to level 28 mostly through my wife (a dwarf barbarian) killing pretty much everything while I used healing scrolls to keep us (mostly myself) alive. I felt like i was throwing pebbles at a lion trying to kill it. After doing some google searches I found that the Sharadi destiny is probably where I should have gone but I haven't tried that yet. We recently ER'd without preparing for it and now I feel even weaker than before. While respecing my character I asked some guildies for help and they basically told me to not worry about meta's other than empower/maximize and not to worry about focusing in evocation or penetration since those don't matter to damage output. Most of my advice went into getting mental toughness/improved mental toughness and then taking toughness for extra hp after that. Now i feel like i'm weaker than a kitten! I changed my enhancements from medium armor to my secondary element so I could have higher damage output and now I can barely do triple digit damage. Help! My build is listed below.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.28.102
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Example Sorc
Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(20 Sorcerer) 
Hit Points: 246
Spell Points: 2143 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 5
Will: 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength              8                     8
Dexterity             8                     9
Constitution         16                    17
Intelligence         14                    14
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             18                    27

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               0                     9
Bluff                 0                     9
Concentration         4                    27
Diplomacy             2                    19
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                0                     8
Heal                  0                    -1
Hide                  0                    -1
Intimidate            0                     9
Jump                  0                    -1
Listen                0                    -1
Move Silently         0                    -1
Open Lock             n/a                  n/a
Perform               1                     9
Repair                0                     2
Search                0                     2
Spellcraft            4                    26
Spot                  0                    -1
Swim                  0                    -1
Tumble                1                     0
Use Magic Device      2                    19

Level 1 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Force of Personality
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Magic Missile


Level 2 (Sorcerer)
Spell (1): Shield


Level 3 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Spell (1): Sonic Blast


Level 4 (Sorcerer)
Spell (2): Blur


Level 5 (Sorcerer)
Spell (2): Gust of Wind


Level 6 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Spell (3): Chain Missiles


Level 7 (Sorcerer)
Spell (2): Knock
Spell (3): Displacement


Level 8 (Sorcerer)
Spell (4): Dimension Door


Level 9 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Spell (2): Snowball Swarm
Spell (3): Frost Lance
Spell (4): Force Missiles


Level 10 (Sorcerer)
Spell (5): Ball Lightning


Level 11 (Sorcerer)
Spell (3): Lightning Bolt
Spell (4): Ice Storm
Spell (5): Cone of Cold


Level 12 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Spell (6): Chain Lightning


Level 13 (Sorcerer)
Spell (4): Stoneskin
Spell (5): Eladar's Electric Surge
Spell (6): Greater Dispel Magic


Level 14 (Sorcerer)
Spell (7): Finger of Death


Level 15 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Spell (5): Niac's Biting Cold
Spell (6): Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Spell (7): Otto's Sphere of Dancing


Level 16 (Sorcerer)
Spell (8): Horrid Wilting


Level 17 (Sorcerer)
Spell (7): Prismatic Spray
Spell (8): Otto's Irresistible Dance


Level 18 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Spell (9): Hold Monster, Mass


Level 19 (Sorcerer)
Spell (8): Polar Ray
Spell (9): Meteor Swarm


Level 20 (Sorcerer)
Spell (9): Wail of the Banshee
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Spell Power Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Air Savant (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Air Affinity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Greater Air Affinity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Conduction (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Light on Your Feet (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Elemental Apotheosis (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Shocking Grasp (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Shocking Grasp (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Shocking Grasp (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Spell Critical: Electric (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Electrocution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Efficient Maximize (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Efficient Maximize (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Efficient Maximize (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Spell Critical: Electric II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Efficient Empower (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Efficient Empower (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Efficient Empower (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Spell Critical: Electric III (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Electric Loop (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Electric Loop (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Electric Loop (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Feather Falling (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Spell Critical: Electric IV (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Lightning Bolt (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Lightning Bolt (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Lightning Bolt (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Wind Dance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Air Savant (Sor) - Power of Frost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Water Savant (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Water Affinity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Greater Water Affinity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Hypothermia (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Cold Ray (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Cold Ray (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Cold Ray (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Spell Critical: Cold I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Hoarfrost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Hoarfrost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Hoarfrost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Spell Critical: Cold II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Absolute Zero (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Absolute Zero (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Absolute Zero (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Spell Critical: Cold III (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Snowball Swarm (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Snowball Swarm (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Snowball Swarm (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Spell Critical: Cold IV (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Water Savant (Sor) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Sor) - Eldritch Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Sor) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Sor) - Toughness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Sor) - Toughness (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Sor) - Battlemage (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Sor) - Shield Training (Rank 1)

[UurlockYgmeov]

know the feeling - felt that way when Uurlock was still a babe, addicted to blue koolaid!

But after many lives, he decided to try Sorc...

AirForged the last Firebender (BF Sorc 18 2 Pal)

Here is the build I used for three lives. Is a pre-U29 build, so only goes to 28, and doesn't include the new spells.

Uses SLA's extensively - and for those without every epic destiny unlocked and filled, run Shiradi is my suggestion. Thread also has gearing.

Won't be perfect, but might give you some ideas. I plan on updating the thread with the final build later this week or next.

Hope this helps!

[FranOhmsford]

know the feeling - felt that way when Uurlock was still a babe, addicted to blue koolaid!

But after many lives, he decided to try Sorc...

AirForged the last Firebender (BF Sorc 18 2 Pal)

Here is the build I used for three lives. Is a pre-U29 build, so only goes to 28, and doesn't include the new spells.

Uses SLA's extensively - and for those without every epic destiny unlocked and filled, run Shiradi is my suggestion. Thread also has gearing.

Won't be perfect, but might give you some ideas. I plan on updating the thread with the final build later this week or next.

Hope this helps!

I'm not sure the OP wants to have to TR?
Does the OP even own Bladeforged?

Unfortunately OP Casters other than Warlocks are just plain bad first life without extreme game knowledge and gearing.

My advice would be to get the Martial Destiny XP to be able to start Shiradi then TR {20 tokens = A True Heart, 100 Fragments = 1 token}.

If you don't have Bladeforged you can probably get by with a base Warforged, If you don't have Warforged the next choice would be Drow for the extra Charisma, If you want to stay Human well you do get an Extra Feat out of it.

The real question is though "How does you wife feel about TRing with you before getting any more Epic Lives done"?

[UurlockYgmeov]

I'm not sure the OP wants to have to TR?
Does the OP even own Bladeforged?

Unfortunately OP Casters other than Warlocks are just plain bad first life without extreme game knowledge and gearing.

the build is for all races - but shown as BF. Past lives are helpful, but not necessary (as the build and the link say).

Also I disagree with the last statement, however do not advise as such.

Plus, I posted the link for suggestions - not to tell the OP what not to do.

[dupthemighty]

Thanks! It does help. I will have to see if there is a way to make a similar build work for me, but i'm not a BF or a WF and I don't know if I want to do the 2 levels of paladin. 2 questions: I notice that there isn't any spell focus evocation in the build, do you have problems landing spells? I keep running into situations where I guess the enemies have evasion and when they save they take no damage and they seem to save really often. (I thought it was spell resistance at first but the spells I was using don't make penetration checks). Second: Is there a way for Sorcs to be effective without the Sharadi? The only advice i see is just take Sharadi so it seems like Sorcs are mostly useless without it in Epics.

[FranOhmsford]

Thanks! It does help. I will have to see if there is a way to make a similar build work for me, but i'm not a BF or a WF and I don't know if I want to do the 2 levels of paladin. 2 questions: I notice that there isn't any spell focus evocation in the build, do you have problems landing spells? I keep running into situations where I guess the enemies have evasion and when they save they take no damage and they seem to save really often. (I thought it was spell resistance at first but the spells I was using don't make penetration checks). Second: Is there a way for Sorcs to be effective without the Sharadi? The only advice i see is just take Sharadi so it seems like Sorcs are mostly useless without it in Epics.

I've seen plenty of Sorcs in Draconic in Epics.

However you really need advice from one of them to fine tune your character.

Air suffers a lot from Mob Evasion, Fire is resisted by virtually everything in newer content, Cold is resisted by a lot everywhere, Acid is probably the best Element for a new Sorceror in my view even though the others are stronger for a maxed out vet. {I think I'd still go Cold Secondary though.}.

[dupthemighty]

FranOhmsford you are right I don't have Bladeforged but i do have Warforged. I don't really want to TR just yet since we both want to try out the new content. I kind of guessed that casters sucked in the first life since all of the builds i see expect 3 sorc past lives and 3 wizard past lives. How do you get those past lives if you don't have a invincible barbarian doing all the killing for you?

[FranOhmsford]

FranOhmsford you are right I don't have Bladeforged but i do have Warforged. I don't really want to TR just yet since we both want to try out the new content. I kind of guessed that casters sucked in the first life since all of the builds i see expect 3 sorc past lives and 3 wizard past lives. How do you get those past lives if you don't have a invincible barbarian doing all the killing for you?

What those players did was get those past lives before Epics even existed as you know them today.

The game capped at Lvl 20 and Firewall/Acid Rain were the easy button for TRing.

At around Lvl 17 {Vale} a lot of Sorcs respecced to Lightning because it worked best against Devils.

Wizard Past Lives were similar - You got to 20 and you TRd {You didn't stay at 20}.

Many will have also gone through 3 FavSoul past lives using Blade Barrier in a similar way to Firewall/Acid Rain.

It also helps to have a Barbarian past life for extra HPs {Many of those Casters now have the backup of a tonne of past Lives and forget how difficult it is when you're just starting out.}.


The one thing that has seemed to have got lost in the shuffle recently is that you can STILL TR at 20. You don't NEED to run Epics {past EN} at all.
All you need is the 20 tokens and you and your wife could farm those in a couple of days just running EN Devil Assault {1-2 tokens each per run}.
You throw down an Ice Storm and a Disco Ball - She Cleaves, Great Cleaves, Everything's dead, go again.

You already also have the benefit of an Arcane {I assume} Epic Past Life which will make your 2nd Life that bit stronger still {as well as the Sorc Past Life that will give you extra SPs next life}.

It's much much worse for Wizards on their first couple of lives - Sorc past lives help a Wizard far more than Wizard past lives help a Sorc {though both are handy for both}.


If it's a Sorc you want to play I'd go for 2nd Life Sorc.
Then I'd go 3xFavSoul
Then I'd go 3x Wizard
Then back to the 3rd Sorc Life.

I frankly wouldn't touch Epics other than ENs until my 3rd Life {1st FvS Life} at least.

I'd definitely get Bladeforged as soon as possible because the 18/2 Paladin split works great with both Sorc and FvS.

Remember Bladeforged also gets you yet another past life bonus though you will have to go to Lvl 30 on the Bladeforged lives {This can be done with all Epic Normal!}.

By your 4th Life you'll have all your Destinies maxed and a bunch of past lives - You may decide you don't even need the Wizard or further FvS past lives and can go back to Sorc that bit earlier.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Thanks! It does help. I will have to see if there is a way to make a similar build work for me, but i'm not a BF or a WF and I don't know if I want to do the 2 levels of paladin. 2 questions: I notice that there isn't any spell focus evocation in the build, do you have problems landing spells? I keep running into situations where I guess the enemies have evasion and when they save they take no damage and they seem to save really often. (I thought it was spell resistance at first but the spells I was using don't make penetration checks). Second: Is there a way for Sorcs to be effective without the Sharadi? The only advice i see is just take Sharadi so it seems like Sorcs are mostly useless without it in Epics.

If you don't use Bladeforged, then you don't have to paladin; in fact probably shouldn't because it does make your sorc weaker (albiet more survivable). Lay of hands and other healing and the +8 to all saves...

Yes - but there are many spells that don't require saves, and if you are in shiradi it is the number of hits rather than the damage per hit. the more hits, the more shiradi proc's. AoE effects like incendiary cloud etc, and magic missile (auto hits and lots of shiradi proc's). Electric Loop is awesome for this.

You can swap in evocation focus - but IIRC I was running in magister and that upped evocation DC's significantly.

Outside of Shiradi - I have seen many effective sorcs running in several other destinies - just can't remember them. Some seem to be running in Draconic and some in Divine.

All in All, Sorc's can do massive DPS, but usually require massive SP to do so. the new U29 feats go aways to help - but you will probably develop a blue koolaid addiction as well.

[dupthemighty]

Thank you all for the replies but I think I won't go back to sorcerer if I TR. If they only don't suck after you Tr 6 - 9 times then I don't think they are the class for me. I don't mean to be rude but I find it unacceptable to have to TR that many times in order to get damage output to become acceptable, especially when it seems like many other classes can do perfectly fine on first life. I wish they had some kind of warning on the class selection saying that they are sub-par until you TR multiple times. I guess I will have to find a class that is more for a casual player like myself.

[FranOhmsford]

Thank you all for the replies but I think I won't go back to sorcerer if I TR. If they only don't suck after you Tr 6 - 9 times then I don't think they are the class for me. I don't mean to be rude but I find it unacceptable to have to TR that many times in order to get damage output to become acceptable, especially when it seems like many other classes can do perfectly fine on first life. I wish they had some kind of warning on the class selection saying that they are sub-par until you TR multiple times. I guess I will have to find a class that is more for a casual player like myself.

It is possible to make a Sorc that works as a 1st Life but it requires a tonne of work and perfect gear. That's what people forget when they insist all classes are fine.

Best classes for first character at the moment

F2P
Rogue {Mechanic with Repeater or Great X-Bow}
Paladin {Sacred Vanguard S+B}
Barbarian {Ravager THF}
P2P
Warlock {Any}
Bladeforged or Purple Dragon Knight Paladin or Bard Mix
Artificer splashed Rogue Mechanic.

Worst classes to start off with atm
Cleric
Wizard
Monk

Everything else is somewhere in the middle.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Thank you all for the replies but I think I won't go back to sorcerer if I TR. If they only don't suck after you Tr 6 - 9 times then I don't think they are the class for me. I don't mean to be rude but I find it unacceptable to have to TR that many times in order to get damage output to become acceptable, especially when it seems like many other classes can do perfectly fine on first life. I wish they had some kind of warning on the class selection saying that they are sub-par until you TR multiple times. I guess I will have to find a class that is more for a casual player like myself.

You can do it - and can be a first lifer - just don't listen to the naysayers and grinches.

However, with that sad - try a Bard --- the count of monte cristo build is great - and the thread has excellent advice!

[goodspeed]

Thank you all for the replies but I think I won't go back to sorcerer if I TR. If they only don't suck after you Tr 6 - 9 times then I don't think they are the class for me. I don't mean to be rude but I find it unacceptable to have to TR that many times in order to get damage output to become acceptable, especially when it seems like many other classes can do perfectly fine on first life. I wish they had some kind of warning on the class selection saying that they are sub-par until you TR multiple times. I guess I will have to find a class that is more for a casual player like myself.

My sorc is a 2nd life (first he was a human then years later BF came out so I tred em.) Anyway the point is back when epics were just epic and 20 was a cap my sorc outbeat all. Dots and blasts. Hell you didn't run shroud without at least 3 real mages unless a bunch of crazed sos wielding multi past life melee's were hacking away.

And now, even in LH my 2nd life sorc does great. Sometimes stuff saves for half dmg but even then we're talking thousands of dmg. It's all about gear, enhancements, spells and play. For instance the melee's they'll be running around crazy in LH, I whip up the displace, and protect spells, I hit my no sp for max clicky and I stand like a wall switching between nukes, quick stuns and quickened recon heals. If it gets real bad I hit my air savant wind walk and get out.

I don't have to worry about to hit (which really sucks right now on a melee but not on a ranged go figure) And my sorc isnt even speced the best yet. I gotta redo all his feats because turb changed a bunch and added more that I couldn't take at 28. He's gonna be just pimpslapping with that greater ruin. Hell the air sla feat jacked up my lightning sla's. (Also a tip their are 2 ed twists to force reflex save reduction. One is in Draconian tier 4 specifically for lightning as the dragon blood thing. The second is a tier 3 enhancement in magister. I twist the one from mag both while I flesh out other destinies for points and when I want my main destiny for elites. With that **** in LH and E theirs no way id want to be a melee without a sure fire way of stunning or holding a monster. As it is im reworking 2 melee builds for that specific reason. They need to be able to take a hit, more then likly dodge a hit, and without a doubt incapacitate the target. Because on red names your so screwed.

[unbongwah]

While respecing my character I asked some guildies for help and they basically told me to not worry about meta's other than empower/maximize and not to worry about focusing in evocation or penetration since those don't matter to damage output.

This advice is somewhat...mixed.

• Spell Penetration is used to overcome Spell Resistance. Not all mobs have SR; and it mostly affects Enchantment & Necro spells, not the pure-DPS spells a sorc relies upon. So unless you want to use spells like discoballs or Energy Drain, you don't need to invest in Spell Pen.
• Spell Focus feats affect the saving throws of your spells. The higher the saving throw, the less likely your spell will be resisted and the more damage you will do. So while Spell Focus and other DC bonuses don't boost your Spellpower like Max / Emp do, they do increase your DPS...most of the time.

Due to the (frankly ridiculous IMHO) saves of epic mobs, some Shiradi caster builds try to sidestep this issue by relying on DPS spells with no save: e.g., Magic Missile, Scorching Ray. The goal is to spam low-cost spells with a high chance of causing Shiradi abilities to proc (e.g., Nerve Venom, Double Rainbow). [This is probably why your guildies told you to ignore DCs entirely when making a Shiradi sorc.] This can lead to some unusual casters, such as this wiz 15 / pal 3 / FvS 2 build.

And if you think it's strange and counter-intuitive to have to resort to such tactics in order to sidestep the balance issues with spellcasters...well, welcome to Metagaming DDO 101.

FWIW, I just took a stab at posting a F2P-friendly Air+Water Savant build. Hopefully the new epic caster feats provide some much needed oomph.

Apart from your build, of course, you also have to worry about your gear: maxing your CHA, Spellpower, and DCs being your main concern.

[dupthemighty]

Thanks for this f2p build! I will have to try that on my character. I really want to like the sorcerer but I didn't want to start from level 1 with a TR. Especially if I had to do it multiple times! We really enjoy the higher level content and don't really feel like TRing. After discussing it with my wife, I think we are going to try Iconics so we can IR and get past lives with that. luckily we just got the expansion packs for Black Friday, but unfortunately we don't have the Bladeforged. I will have to see if I have the TP to buy it, otherwise I'll have to try a to figure out which one works best for sorcs. If i keep having problems I might try Warlocks when we reincarnate though. I have heard they are much easier to build.