Rather than one-shotting everyone nerf our self healing

[Basura_Grande]

Self healing is too good. This is one of the main reasons the game is as broken qas it is.

Start with halving the value of healing amp.

[ArekDorun]

I don't see this being done because the devs don't wanna force grouping on people.

That said, if the devs want to consider this, here's a better idea for healing amplification: Make it so that Healing Amp only works on spells/effects from external sources. Example: if I cast a heal on myself, healing amp would not effect it, but if someone else cast a heal on me it would be amplified by healing amp.

This greatly nerfs self-healing without rendering healing amplification useless....and would make it easier to balance hard content.

--ArekDorun

[Basura_Grande]

Halve the defensive value of PRR if you are holding a ranged weapon.

[changelingamuck]

Start with halving the value of healing amp.

Healing amp is excessive. Halving is too big of a reduction though, I think. Really, the main problem is the self-healing abilities in my opinion. They're too readily available without enough opportunity-cost sacrifice for choosing them, considering how great of a benefit they give. And they're too unlimited in their use. Any universally available self-healing ability should pale in comparison to the healing ability available to *gasp* actual healing classes.

That said, if the devs want to consider this, here's a better idea for healing amplification: Make it so that Healing Amp only works on spells/effects from external sources. Example: if I cast a heal on myself, healing amp would not effect it, but if someone else cast a heal on me it would be amplified by healing amp.

This greatly nerfs self-healing without rendering healing amplification useless....and would make it easier to balance hard content.

This is a very clever idea. However, I would simply reduce the effect of the healing amp on self-healing, rather than eliminate it entirely.

Halve the defensive value of PRR if you are holding a ranged weapon.

I find this idea interesting too, but, again, I think that a reduction by half is pretty extreme.

Here's what I would do:

(1) First off, I'd increase the cooldown on the bladeforged reconstruct SLA enhancement from 30/15/6 seconds to 45/25/14 seconds.

(2) Switch the places of Crusade and Sacred Ground in the Divine Crusader destiny. This would move the self-healing Sacred Ground option from Tier 3 to Tier 4.

(3) Switch the places of Autumn Harvest and Cocoon in the Primal Avatar destiny. This would move the on-demand self-healing of Cocoon from Tier 1 to Tier 4. And it would put the less controllable, more limited healing of Autumn Harvest in Tier 1 (this is unaffected by spell power and triggers only on nearby enemy deaths). Also, increase the cooldown on Cocoon from 12 seconds to 20 seconds. Maybe make Cocoon require being in the Primal Avatar destiny in order to self-target like the requirement for Renewal in Unyielding Sentinel (that's probably going too far actually, though... maybe).

People could still get access to these self-healing abilities. They would just involve more sacrifice to twist them in (which is appropriate considering their benefits even with increased cooldowns). And they would be less reliable healing options than the healing from actual healing classes (which is also appropriate since healing classes should have clear advantages at... wait for it... healing).

(4) Add a cleric enhancement that makes it so all their healing spells no longer require line-of-sight to heal allies (in other words, they can heal through walls, like Cocoon used to do). That would add another advantage to teamplay healing.

[JOTMON]

Self healing is too good. This is one of the main reasons the game is as broken qas it is.

Start with halving the value of healing amp.

Self healing is not really the issue, its the lack of need for someone else to heal you while you take damage and deal with the task at hand.

One-shot attakcs are just pointless since a healer cant help you anyway, they become rez monkeys which correspondingly results in.. just bring a self sufficient DPS'er with stacks of rez scrolls instead.

What we should be seeing more of are melee/ranged attack debuffs that reduce/impede self casting, or self healing on players engaged in direct combat.
AOE dot damagers, like chains, boom, bees, maggots, and other effects to screw up concentration checks, and/or debuff players.

Ranged players have had it easy for a long time, stay far enough away from the mob and you are not impacted by many backlash effects.
There should be more targeted effects that impact these players...

Revolving spell damagers/healing effects like helmed horrors.. where casting the right spell at the right time matters more than spamming.
cycle various shields (with tells)where changing attack method is required to break the shields magic/melee(bludgeon/pierce/slash)/elemental/undead/untyped to break the shields.

The game needs to get back to the point where diversity in teamwork matters, not solo'ists grouping together.
back in the day, rogues would jump back and scroll heal in situations where damage would likely get them killed.. like shroud blades moving in.. DPS for a while then pull out...since the damage was >than the heals.
there needs to be that pivotal point where change in tactics plays better than brute DPS and changes over longer duration battles.

We have been heading into an era of bastardized brute min/max DPS solo'ers focussed on quick beatdowns for the win instead of teamwork oriented confrontations.

[Seljuck]

Self healing is not really the issue, its the lack of need for someone else to heal you while you take damage and deal with the task at hand.

One-shot attakcs are just pointless since a healer cant help you anyway, they become rez monkeys which correspondingly results in.. just bring a self sufficient DPS'er with stacks of rez scrolls instead.

What we should be seeing more of are melee/ranged attack debuffs that reduce/impede self casting, or self healing on players engaged in direct combat.
AOE dot damagers, like chains, boom, bees, maggots, and other effects to screw up concentration checks, and/or debuff players.

Ranged players have had it easy for a long time, stay far enough away from the mob and you are not impacted by many backlash effects.
There should be more targeted effects that impact these players...

Revolving spell damagers/healing effects like helmed horrors.. where casting the right spell at the right time matters more than spamming.
cycle various shields (with tells)where changing attack method is required to break the shields magic/melee(bludgeon/pierce/slash)/elemental/undead/untyped to break the shields.

The game needs to get back to the point where diversity in teamwork matters, not solo'ists grouping together.
back in the day, rogues would jump back and scroll heal in situations where damage would likely get them killed.. like shroud blades moving in.. DPS for a while then pull out...since the damage was >than the heals.
there needs to be that pivotal point where change in tactics plays better than brute DPS and changes over longer duration battles.

We have been heading into an era of bastardized brute min/max DPS solo'ers focussed on quick beatdowns for the win instead of teamwork oriented confrontations.

Overall, your suggestion are good, but there is one problem, its name is QUICKEN. Most heal effects comes from cocoon.

[Basura_Grande]

Overall, your suggestion are good, but there is one problem, its name is QUICKEN. Most heal effects comes from cocoon.

How? SLA's don't get interrupted.

[JOTMON]

How? SLA's don't get interrupted.

Perhaps adding a -25% to Melee Power for the caster of Cocoon with a 9 second cooldown.
Self casting on a melee it would cause some annoyance in the midst of battle, being cast outside of battle would be functional.
For someone stepping back to help with heals and not be in melee, it would still be useful.

Rejuvenation Cocoon: Active (12 SP activation) (12 sec cooldown) (Empower Heal, Quicken, Enlarge) (SR: no) Protect target ally with a shield of [90/120/150] temporary HP for 9 seconds. Heals 5d6 HP every 2 seconds while the shield persists.

[Vanhooger]

We have been heading into an era of bastardized brute min/max DPS solo'ers focussed on quick beatdowns for the win instead of teamwork oriented confrontations.

That's why I just started playing House C challenges, for some reason didn't bother with them till few days ago and was a big mistake, they're so much fun. You need to do other things rather then just hold down mouse 1.

[KLJJ]

Self healing is not really the issue, its the lack of need for someone else to heal you while you take damage and deal with the task at hand.

My character, regardless of class or abilities, having effectively infinite HPs unless mob DPS is ridiculously high isn't a problem?

[JOTMON]

My character, regardless of class or abilities, having effectively infinite HPs unless mob DPS is ridiculously high isn't a problem?

Nope.
There is balance in all things, having a massive amount of HP and lots of self healing with little DPS isn't going to get you very far.

Ultimately it comes down to challenge, if you are running 'at level' with 'appropriate gear' you should have reasonable challenge.
The game is about defeating obstacle to gain benefits to advance to the next more challenging obstacle and so on.

a challenge that may one-shot kill you if you do something wrong or are improperly prepared but provides opportunity to bypass or otherwise survive the challenge is an obstacle that just needs figuring out.
One-shot kills with no reasonable defense or avoidance is not a challenge its an insult to gamers.

Self healing is an opportunity to maintain survivability, if you are healing you are not doing something else...investing in self healing means you are not investing in something else.
Old school builds were more focussed on their individual tasks while relying on other party members doing the same.

Without incentive to build focussed classes, the trend of self sufficiency will continue.
a old school barbarian was worth 2 DPS melee's in brute straight up damage, but needed that healer support to sustain him, that isn't the case anymore, two self sufficient melee's are in a better overall position..You don't see glass canon barbarians anymore.
each class used to bring unique bonuses to the group that helped the overall group be better at their niche abilities, this has also gone by the wayside.. no one cares about barkskin, paladin aura, or even bard songs anymore, they are now trivial in the group dynamic.

Current day gaming has changed, a healer in a party has a difficult time keeping themselves alive let alone the rest of the group, yoyo damage and one shotting changes this from the old historical steady manageable perisitant incoming damage mitigation.
Like many other clerics.. I don't want to blow out my mana bar spamming high cost heals trying to keep hard to heal people going and then still end up having to play rez monkey because the spam of one-shot damage cant be mitigated.

Screwing with self healing wont fix this, there is no perks or benefits to having a diversified party., the game has shifted away from group dynamic to self survival.

[GlassCannon]

... Screwing with self healing wont fix this, there is no perks or benefits to having a diversified party., the game has shifted away from group dynamic to self survival.

And this (the game being about self healing and soloists) is precisely what should NOT happen.

Thus my comment about miscalibrating the general game for metagamers.

[slarden]

People are beating it on EE. The only thing they need to do at this point is amp up the difficulty a little more on EE maybe.

I don't see any point in making changes to self-healing - it won't solve anything.

[Basura_Grande]

People are beating it on EE. The only thing they need to do at this point is amp up the difficulty a little more on EE maybe.

People are cheesing it on LE.

How do you do that when it's already at the point where 90% of the toons are one-shot by any trash mob?

I don't see any point in making changes to self-healing - it won't solve anything.

Nonsense. Our "indestructibility" is the problem. The devs aren't good enough to challenge us without stupid game mechanics and one-shotting. Too easy self-healing is a major reason for this.

[Vanhooger]

People are cheesing it on LE.

How do you do that when it's already at the point where 90% of the toons are one-shot by any trash mob?



Nonsense. Our "indestructibility" is the problem. The devs aren't good enough to challenge us without stupid game mechanics and one-shotting. Too easy self-healing is a major reason for this.

Let's add player immunity to stun/hold/petrification/slippery surface/knockdown and bad designed ench such as ravager & berseker that combine best dps/defense/healing and leave nothing to occult slayer (as one example).

Most build do not have a single weakness. It's time to revert back that trend.

[changelingamuck]

Let's add player immunity to stun/hold/petrification/slippery surface/knockdown

This. 'Immunity'' items and spells should provide a percent chance to ignore a status effect based on the caster level of the item or caster of the spell. As it is now, why are they even in the game? I was farming a bauble the other day and just had to laugh at the succubi trying to charm me... It's like, they'd be stronger if they actually didn't have that "power" because they might do some damage in its place if they did something else... Why did anybody program in mob-vs.-player charms, blindness, etc. when they could literally be removed from the game and it would barely impact the game at all.

The change to Proof against poison items with Menace of the Underdark was a good move. They separated poisons into natural, magical, and supernatural categories and Proof against Poison only provided complete immunity to natural poisons. Something like that change should be expanded to all the other status effects that are utter wastes of code in this game.

Most build do not have a single weakness. It's time to revert back that trend.

True.

[slarden]

People are cheesing it on LE.

How do you do that when it's already at the point where 90% of the toons are one-shot by any trash mob?



Nonsense. Our "indestructibility" is the problem. The devs aren't good enough to challenge us without stupid game mechanics and one-shotting. Too easy self-healing is a major reason for this.

So what do you want? We go back to the old epics where most of the party is warforged casters, favored souls and pms?

That was an era where self healing was low and the content was made easy by people choosing builds that were best for epics. Make cocoon worse it just means I will drop a few builds with weaker self helaing in favor of builds that have better self healing.

The raid was completed on EE - not sure why those tactics are any worse than what you are proposing. If people don't want an extreme challenge - they aren't required to run it.

Turbine can't overcome metagaming and shouldn't waste too much effort on it.

[Basura_Grande]

So what do you want? We go back to the old epics where most of the party is warforged casters, favored souls and pms?

I simply won't play a game where we're one-shot by every trash mob in a quest. If that means going back to Pre-Motu then sure, the game was better then anyway.

[Seljuck]

So what do you want? We go back to the old epics where most of the party is warforged casters, favored souls and pms?

That was an era where self healing was low and the content was made easy by people choosing builds that were best for epics. Make cocoon worse it just means I will drop a few builds with weaker self helaing in favor of builds that have better self healing.

The raid was completed on EE - not sure why those tactics are any worse than what you are proposing. If people don't want an extreme challenge - they aren't required to run it.

Turbine can't overcome metagaming and shouldn't waste too much effort on it.

Black & white... just black & white.. Did you know that between black & white is whole variety of shades of grey???? Think about it.

Reducing effectiveness of self healing don't mean it wont work at all. It will work but will be insufficient in a middle of battle, which means you will have to play smarter, slower and/or group with divine, or scroll-heal which is less effective due to long cast animation. You want self heal? Sure why not, just sacrifice something for this ability.

[slarden]

I simply won't play a game where we're one-shot by every trash mob in a quest. If that means going back to Pre-Motu then sure, the game was better then anyway.

As I understand it you won't get one shot if the mobs are cc'd. The raid may take multiple people with different types of cc to manage the mobs.

In the old epic DA if you had cc and a tank - the quest was a total cakewalk - no chance for deaths. If there was no cc the party would wipe in 30 seconds.

If anything this is kind of like the old epics except more chance of death in the new raid even if things are done perfectly.