Rather than one-shotting everyone nerf our self healing

[slarden]

LOLz . . . so you haven't even run the raids.

Ran the raid and complete the raid are two different things. I didn't complete it no, but we were also short man and didn't have the right cc. It was just to get a flavor.

However when hearing what people did it makes sense - yeah that would work with a full diverse party the challenge can be overcome and was.

People call it "cheese" tactics but I don't see it that way. It sounds like you and and others want less damage combined with less healing for just some builds, but I am sure you will bring a full self healing character right. I mean that is what happened before motu that is exactly what would happen now. People will bring the best self healing and post BYOH in the lfm.

[Thrudh]

As I understand it you won't get one shot if the mobs are cc'd. The raid may take multiple people with different types of cc to manage the mobs.

In the old epic DA if you had cc and a tank - the quest was a total cakewalk - no chance for deaths. If there was no cc the party would wipe in 30 seconds.

This.

The old epics could kill you very quickly if you didn't manage aggro carefully, and CC made things a lot easier. Why is it so terrible that we're moving back to teamwork and careful aggro management?

[SableShadow]

This.

The old epics could kill you very quickly if you didn't manage aggro carefully, and CC made things a lot easier. Why is it so terrible that we're moving back to teamwork and careful aggro management?

Which old epics?

Perch and burn old epics?
Hold and heavy pick old epics?
Stunning blow on every weapon old epics?

I'm game for tactical play, and having to coordinate to take mobs down, but 'the old days' had a lot of their own special helpings of cheese.

[Qezuzu]

This.

The old epics could kill you very quickly if you didn't manage aggro carefully, and CC made things a lot easier. Why is it so terrible that we're moving back to teamwork and careful aggro management?

Have you even ran these raids yet?

[changelingamuck]

It sounds like you and and others want less damage combined with less healing for just some builds, but I am sure you will bring a full self healing character right. I mean that is what happened before motu that is exactly what would happen now. People will bring the best self healing and post BYOH in the lfm.

I didn't do that. Actually, as a rule, I never clicked on an lfm that said BYOH even when I had my own H to B to the party. I also played a favored soul about half the time and I never put BYOH in the lfm and I almost always PUGed everything that I ran. I'd only very rarely be set to anonymous and when I'd receive blind tells asking to heal a raid, I'd join them sometimes even when I didn't want anything out of it occasionally. I didn't just rez people. I split my time pretty effectively between dps-ing and healing and only rarely did it feel burdensome to heal (a few sp-sponges here and there which I didn't rage about either, I just adjusted tactics).

On my rogue, I actually had to jump out of the fray to scroll heal sometimes. And you know, that was really okay. If a healing-capable class was around, I often wouldn't need to jump away to self-heal. If I was solo-ing or out-of-heal-range or whatever in an emergency, I lost some dps and had some risk of dying if I wasn't careful. That's what balance is. And it's good.

Let the antisocial misanthropes take their best self-healing builds and post BYOH again and have their self-healing be reduced to a level where there's some disadvantage to doing that while still being viable. The rest of us can ignore their lfms like we did before.

[Qhualor]

This.

The old epics could kill you very quickly if you didn't manage aggro carefully, and CC made things a lot easier. Why is it so terrible that we're moving back to teamwork and careful aggro management?

Because the past few years DDO moved away from a team encouraged game and provided ways for every class to be capable of being a jack of all trades. "We" got too used to character power increasing and content remaining the same. It wasn't until I think this past year that the devs have increased content challenge with Champions, high level epic quests and creating barrier quests with 10+ mobs per encounter. Elite became the standard and the zergy playstyle became the norm. The problem is "97%" of quests are typically played like this and suddenly players are expected to resort to teamwork, use secondary character abilities and redesign their builds for better defenses and self healing. What's happening is exactly what I've been saying for a long time now. I don't agree with this new direction of jacking up normal mobs damage and calling it challenging, but it needs to happen starting at level 1 on elite so players can really start learning about tactics and teamwork. What you are liking about these changes means going back to healer, tank, dps days. If that is the intention than it can't be just in level 28 and above content.

[Basura_Grande]

This.

The old epics could kill you very quickly if you didn't manage aggro carefully, and CC made things a lot easier. Why is it so terrible that we're moving back to teamwork and careful aggro management?

So, have you run the raids yet on Lamania?

[Basura_Grande]

Have you even ran these raids yet?

LOLz . . . beat me to it.

[Basura_Grande]

Which old epics?

Perch and burn old epics?
Hold and heavy pick old epics?
Stunning blow on every weapon old epics?

I'm game for tactical play, and having to coordinate to take mobs down, but 'the old days' had a lot of their own special helpings of cheese.

EXACTLY! I remember all those days, when epic was just plain dumb. That's not better.

[Thrudh]

Have you even ran these raids yet?

Nope.

But there is a real pattern on these boards where people refuse to adapt their playstyle. They rush in, get too much aggro, use no active mitigation tactics, and then come here and then over-exaggerate the problem.

For instance, obviously every single trash mob isn't one-shotting every single player on every single hit, or no one would be completing.

So right off the bat, I see some people already over-exaggerating the problem. So I ask, how often do people actually get one-shot? Are you playing smart or rushing straight in? If you play differently, does the number of players getting one-shot go down? Or did you instead run here first thing and complain instead of trying different strategies?

Are you using CC (melee have CC too) against the mobs, or standing toe-to-toe with multiple Legendary Elite orthans, trading blows? Are you working together on small groups of mobs, or are you split up, each facing multiple mobs?

Now, all that said... I am NOT saying everything is perfect. Damage probably should be toned down... I like the idea of faster attacks, with less damage. There are indeed other ways for the devs to challenge players, other than super high damage from mobs. Keep the good ideas coming.

[Basura_Grande]

Nope.

Then nothing you post is worth reading regarding any of this. I stopped reading after the word I quoted.

My group owns the EE MOD record and is seconds away from the EE DOJ one, were better players than you are and adapt our tactics all the time. Listen to us, you might actually learn something.

[Thrudh]

Because the past few years DDO moved away from a team encouraged game and provided ways for every class to be capable of being a jack of all trades. "We" got too used to character power increasing and content remaining the same. It wasn't until I think this past year that the devs have increased content challenge with Champions, high level epic quests and creating barrier quests with 10+ mobs per encounter. Elite became the standard and the zergy playstyle became the norm. The problem is "97%" of quests are typically played like this and suddenly players are expected to resort to teamwork, use secondary character abilities and redesign their builds for better defenses and self healing. What's happening is exactly what I've been saying for a long time now. I don't agree with this new direction of jacking up normal mobs damage and calling it challenging, but it needs to happen starting at level 1 on elite so players can really start learning about tactics and teamwork. What you are liking about these changes means going back to healer, tank, dps days. If that is the intention than it can't be just in level 28 and above content.

You make a good point. But epics when they first came out were much harder than the level 18 and level 19 quests below them. I don't really see a problem with Legendary content being 4x harder and requiring more teamwork than a level 29 quest.

But I do see your point. It would be better if the whole game was like that. But that ship has sailed. Legendary content, however, is brand new..

[Powerhungry]

Being one-sotted by everything in DDO is akin to PnP where the DM has you roll a d20 every minute in a dungeon. If you don't roll a 20, you die. What's fun about dying essentially at random. 'Why am I dead?'- DM response ''because I kill players for no real reason. I think it makes the game more challenging.'
There are ways (numerous have been mentioned) to make a game challenging. One-shot kills are not one of them.
Why do we use deathblock? To prevent insta-kills from mobs. One-shot kills are the same thing but with no defense other than to not be hit (kiting).
It's not the dying we hate (ok, no one likes to dye) but rather the manner of death.
I remember running Sinister Storage years ago. It was a guild run at level on elite. We were all first life, poorly equipped toons (there was no Etr for ePLs). We had no idea what we were doing or what to expect (e.g. no DR breakers)It's one room with numerous stages of spawns. It took a 6-player party over an hour. There were 126 deaths. Every piece of equipment was broken on every player. No one rage quit, no one was one-shotted. Was it a challenge? Yes (at the time). I still find it amusing and is one of my best guild memories. Being one-shotted 126 would not be fun. It would be an exercise in futility.
BTW- that same character that ran that quest so long ago (and accounted for about 1/3 of those deaths) is now a completionist/epic completionist and can solo almost anything (PL/ePLs, gear and quest knowledge are huge).

[Qezuzu]

Nope.

If you haven't ran these raids then why are you lecturing people WHO HAVE RAN THE RAIDS AND SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED THEM on how to RUN THE RAIDS AND SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETE THEM?????

No, it's possible to complete a quest where all trash one-shots you. You just need ranged DPS and CC. Yes, it may surprise but despite you insisting people are not using tactics and such, they actually are using tactics and such to complete these raids.

It doesn't change the fact that in their current iteration, they are horribly designed. I don't think you quite understand the scope of one-shots: if you get hit at all, you die. That sounds like a condition for a first-person horror game, not an MMO.

[Basura_Grande]

If you haven't ran these raids then why are you lecturing people WHO HAVE RAN THE RAIDS AND SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED THEM on how to RUN THE RAIDS AND SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETE THEM?????

No, it's possible to complete a quest where all trash one-shots you. You just need ranged DPS and CC. Yes, it may surprise but despite you insisting people are not using tactics and such, they actually are using tactics and such to complete these raids.

It doesn't change the fact that in their current iteration, they are horribly designed. I don't think you quite understand the scope of one-shots: if you get hit at all, you die. That sounds like a mechanic for a first-person horror game, not an MMO.

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar.

[JOTMON]

This.

The old epics could kill you very quickly if you didn't manage aggro carefully, and CC made things a lot easier. Why is it so terrible that we're moving back to teamwork and careful aggro management?

Not the same, in old Epics you could take 2 hits. you only got insta-killed if you didn't have fortification and were squishy.

being hit by multiple mobs at the same time would get you beaten to death without CC.

While I don't think the dispute is about teamwork and aggro management, the issue is getting one shotted for 2k damage with 100 PRR.
unavoidable one shot mechanics are just annoying and will generate more rage quitting than back to the drawing board for party planning challenge/strategy.
If you cant avoid or mitigate the insta-kill then it is not a challenge to be defeated, it is a screwit/rezfest.

Old school challenges gave options to avoid impending doom attacks for those not capable of toe to toe facing the threat.
Von6 is the prime example.. there were rocks to hid behind, but you couldn't hide everyone there indefinitely.
vs
New version.. endfight DOJ.. bombardment.. 8k damage barrage if you are hit, circles don't represent the attack zone, everyone has to scatter and roll the luck dice... only high reflex and evasion will save you here.
generally its a near party wipe except the bastardized ranged evasion builds.. its not strategy, its beat the x down as fast as possible forgoing any concept of strategy or teamwork. brute dps wins, screw the balanced party mentality.

What they need to get back to is providing the benefits of having a balanced diversified party strengthen the overall team, not weaken it in favor of bastardized DPS brutes.

[Grailhawk]

Self healing is too good. This is one of the main reasons the game is as broken qas it is.

Start with halving the value of healing amp.

Maybe nerfing healing amp is enough but IMO the real issue is that you can have the Best DPS, Defense, and Healing all at the same time.

Its hard to get this right in a game that is not going to force people into a trinity style roll but that's the issue right now you can get enough defense and healing and still have top tier DPS that should be possible.

They need to relook at all the classes they have done a pass to and adjust them so that you cant get +1 Crti Mult&Threat, +30 PRR and +60 Healing amp at the same time. It is hard though to get his right with out just turning the game into a trinity game, which at least I would rather not see happen (I'll take the stupid one shot mechanics over trinity).

[KLJJ]

Self healing is not really the issue, its the lack of need for someone else to heal you while you take damage and deal with the task at hand.

My character, regardless of class or abilities, having effectively infinite HPs unless mob DPS is ridiculously high isn't a problem?

[JOTMON]

My character, regardless of class or abilities, having effectively infinite HPs unless mob DPS is ridiculously high isn't a problem?

Nope.
There is balance in all things, having a massive amount of HP and lots of self healing with little DPS isn't going to get you very far.

Ultimately it comes down to challenge, if you are running 'at level' with 'appropriate gear' you should have reasonable challenge.
The game is about defeating obstacle to gain benefits to advance to the next more challenging obstacle and so on.

a challenge that may one-shot kill you if you do something wrong or are improperly prepared but provides opportunity to bypass or otherwise survive the challenge is an obstacle that just needs figuring out.
One-shot kills with no reasonable defense or avoidance is not a challenge its an insult to gamers.

Self healing is an opportunity to maintain survivability, if you are healing you are not doing something else...investing in self healing means you are not investing in something else.
Old school builds were more focussed on their individual tasks while relying on other party members doing the same.

Without incentive to build focussed classes, the trend of self sufficiency will continue.
a old school barbarian was worth 2 DPS melee's in brute straight up damage, but needed that healer support to sustain him, that isn't the case anymore, two self sufficient melee's are in a better overall position..You don't see glass canon barbarians anymore.
each class used to bring unique bonuses to the group that helped the overall group be better at their niche abilities, this has also gone by the wayside.. no one cares about barkskin, paladin aura, or even bard songs anymore, they are now trivial in the group dynamic.

Current day gaming has changed, a healer in a party has a difficult time keeping themselves alive let alone the rest of the group, yoyo damage and one shotting changes this from the old historical steady manageable perisitant incoming damage mitigation.
Like many other clerics.. I don't want to blow out my mana bar spamming high cost heals trying to keep hard to heal people going and then still end up having to play rez monkey because the spam of one-shot damage cant be mitigated.

Screwing with self healing wont fix this, there is no perks or benefits to having a diversified party., the game has shifted away from group dynamic to self survival.

[GlassCannon]

... Turbine can't overcome metagaming and shouldn't waste too much effort on it.

I've been in DDO for a good long time and nothing ruins a pleasant experience more than monsters one-shotting every party member, including the "How the blazes did he get his HP that high?? Must be HAX" tanks with HP upwards of 1500.

What is destroying the game is the Devs constantly trying to challenge metagamers. This is a VERY BAD IDEA when they adjust normal content for the metagamers and literally grief the rest of us for not being metagamers. We have jobs, families, school, whatever and can't be on DDO 120 hours a week like the folks who solo EE's or make builds that require hundreds of hours (read: several years for the normal folks because we spread those hours out a lot more) to get all the stuff for and by the time that happens the Devs have tweaked things again to ruin the Metagamers' edges and the normal folks are hurting for even trying.

The Metagamers do need a Reaper Mode (not Difficulty, Mode) that allows for Hardcore play (instadelete on death, for example). The rest of us do not need or deserve to be penalized for their aggressive domination of the game as it is.

Self-Healing could do with a non-heal-amp condition. I see folks scroll healing their "JUST WHAT were you THINKING???" MultiSplash Half Orc wearing a Robe and swinging a Greataxe around dealing more damage than the other 3 members in the party combined and taking hits like he's indestructible popping a Heal scroll on himself for ~500 points. That is a metagamer. The pure class roleplayers in group are enjoying the easy ride until he disconnects then months later wonder why they simply can't survive the content they used to when the content is adjusted for the invulnerable metagamer with overpowered everything.

I hear (in-game) about how this is OP and that is OP and according to experience that is nothing but heresay and conjecture. From my perspective, "trash mobs," or regular monsters, are OP. They hit so hard they take the normal character hundreds of damage in the negative and if you get a Champion in an EE run with your guildmates that have significantly stronger characters than you, watch out. They hit you once, it doesn't matter what your HP is. You go minus hundreds.

Back to work for me. There's my 2c. I'll keep playing and enjoying what's left of DDO that isn't overpowered to ruin my day.