Is 2000+ damage a swing from trash mobs WAI?

[IronClan]

wrong. ALL trash mobs in these raids are hitting for 2000+

Something you'd know if you actually ran the raids instead of spouting off nonsense.

Interesting that someone 2 days ago posted about how easy it was to 4 man on Elite.

Do we not get to comment unless we also 4 maned it on elite?

Have you 4 manned it on elite and found it to be trivially easy?

If not; do you and I get to comment?

Sorry just feeling out parameters/degrees by which everyone's allowed to participate in the discussion.

Mobs one-shoting Toons does not = Hard; it just equals annoying.

One mans annoying is another mans challenge in my experience. Having a taste of Hard and Elite (not completed either so I hope I'm not disqualified from commenting). I'm pretty sure I wont be doing these raids on E for a LONG time... but then I don't do a lot of EE raids on live either, just occasionally and usually because Renowned (Bays usually) opened a PUG LFM for the fun of it... Most of all because Elite raiding is laggy raiding. But also because like most pug players I run what other people are running or willing to join and EE raids are a minority. I'm not saying you're wrong about 2000+ damage either in fact I agree that for me personally it just means I will build for miss chance and ignore armor. Layered Defense +100prr which has been just as good (if not slightly more optimal in most cases) as Heavy armor PRR/MRR pre-nerf all along becomes clearly optimal, even forum only players will agree. Especially now that they nerfed MRR off armor. But even if they hadn't it would still be better to be missed more often and mitigate 12% less of 2000 while doing good DPS than be hit almost 100% of the time and mitigate 12% more of 2000 while doing poorer (tanky) DPS. In fact with damage this big it can be argued that ANY opportunity cost spending on PRR at all is a waste of opportunity.

To me nothing has really changed here except the "very quick death" potential of EE (for all but the year of Armor up) has turned into the "Very quick minus 1000hps" potential of LE. 2000+ might as well be 15,000+. As long as an optimal meta-strategy can be worked out neither one will make any difference to the "challenge" felt. The people who 4 manned it? They already know the optimal meta-strategy.

TWF is still very optimal (Yep it was past tense as well) because of aggro management (one target, no glances, not likely to be using cleaves = far better survival+far better single target DPS)
Layered Defense still optimal
Evasion still best multiclass add,
CC or get too much aggro is still true if you don't move slow
Thrower/Bluff pulling mobs is still a good idea
Perching is still optimal
Finding a cheese spot that bugs the boss out or makes you hard to hit/target while you slowly range/persistent damage the boss is still going to be the first thing people try to find.

Unfortunately short of player monsters, or a Vingian Singularity in AI technology, or the Dev's adapting more proceedural content to mobs (bosses that have unpredictable powers and abilities), none of this is avoidable in a static game that can be meta-gamed.

[Thrudh]

We have gone through this before. As a pure class cleric, no earth quake. Which I do not think a cleric should have. We were there to get the gear, what we had was just fine until the Dev's changed things and said nothing. So there was no reason to think things needed changed. When the same group could make it through with team work the week before. That is an issue that gets dropped. Many people have left the game for that. Run a quest chain, enjoy it, next week suddenly the deaths are outrageous, and when you complain, it is your fault, or simply drop to hard you can't handle it. Really, you see nothing wrong with this business plan?

Why should I be on the forums discussing with power gamers how to make my team playing toons work better? I DO NOT WANT TO POWER GAME! If I did I certainly would not be on DDO. Dungeons and Dragons is why I started to play this in the first place, as did countless others. The whole idea of that game was awesome. Yes this is so very different from pnp. I got it. However the feel of it used to be D&D. It is now becoming WOW or any other number of games that you get to choose from 4 or 5 classes and you are forced to take certain things, you have to get this gear or that. Your choices are gone. That is also a reason why so many that are unhappy with the direction of the game are still here, they hope it will change back to some resemblance of D&D.

If and when I do ask advice it is from players who play in a similar way as I do. Most of those are not on the forums. They are playing the game. I have several of them on my friends list I do ask advice from. There are many that are friendly and enjoying helping others to enjoy the game. These forums are not the end all of the game. IT would be nice if they were and a person could ask a question without being jumped on and made to look like a fool for asking. Very few people enjoy that.

I also never said nerf content. I had asked them to warn us when they make changes so extreme as to make everything a one shot kill zone. That is a huge difference. If you read all the threads on this it is very clear it upset players. Okay not your "top players". I am certain our idea on that is completely different. Our guild never expected to run EE for every quest either, however the ones we could and enjoyed doing have now been totally changed and the result and with the upcoming new changes is most we will not even bother with. So in essence they have stripped us of about 1/4 content. Several are now asking, why am I paying for this? That is a business issue. Which you clearly have no concern for.

They did warn us. There were release notes telling us that Necro IV EE was going to be considered "Legendary" and made extra hard. It was in the release notes.

What's wrong with dropping to EH? I ran Necro IV most of the time on EN or EH when I was gear hunting. It was still fun.

I also ran it on EE recently... It was a PUG, and at first we didn't work as a team, and we almost wiped. Then we started moving slowly, only aggroing a few mobs at a time, and I never died again. I was playing an evasion melee with 100 PRR. I have decent gear, but nothing great. I don't have any raid gear from the last few raids. There's nothing wrong with EE Necro IV if you move slow and play carefully.

Why is changing your tactics not an option?

[nokowi]

I DO NOT WANT TO POWER GAME!

Then don't demand elite be designed around you.

Go have some fun on EH and stop complaining all the time. You seem to be having zero fun, by your own choice.

If EH is too easy, start an EH thread. I will support your efforts.

[nokowi]

We were there to get the gear, what we had was just fine until the Dev's changed things and said nothing.

EN chain is the fastest way to get gear. If you just want the gear, and want to explore all the corners, without power gaming, run the chain on EN or EH.

The only thing useful gearwise that drops on EE is mythic versions. They also drop on EH/EN.

Why exactly do you need to run EE?

[Qezuzu]

Now it takes about 1/3 as long on elite to get the runes and there are massive demands to make LE easier even though it's completeable.

Can't speak for everyone, but I don't want LE raids to be easier, I want them to be better. Removing one-shot mobs is the first step (of several steps that should have been taken in the, what, over a year this has been in development?)

I don't think I'm entitled to elite completions, I don't want to rush into a group of mobs, spam cleaves and win or whatever other nonsense position you believe me and others are taking, I want quality content, and this is not quality.

But, you know, this dance we've had update after update, I'm probably better off just giving up. Bring on the OHKO mobs! Just give me some time to TR from Human Acrobat to Halfling Fighter Splash Acrobat so I can get some more dodge cap (current limit for pure rogue acro is, what, 38%? +3 Halfling, +3 Fighter, +4 legendary feat that gives dodge cap increase... Improved Uncanny Dodge, Meld Into Darkness, Revels facemask... 57 seconds of 98% dodge... hmm I think I'm onto something).

Or maybe I can save the trouble, and convince my guildies to move on to a different game. Maybe they'll budge this time.

I like the fact that LE requires massive teamwork, a diverse party and tactics ...

Requires teamwork... sure.

Requires a diverse party? Uh huh.

[Starla70]

Really? I do not demand things be worked around me.

Why can't I run EE? Why must it always be EN or EH because you want it to be to your challenge level?

Qezuzu said it ina great way...

I don't think I'm entitled to elite completions, I don't want to rush into a group of mobs, spam cleaves and win or whatever other nonsense position you believe me and others are taking, I want quality content, and this is not quality.

and here ...Requires teamwork... sure.

Requires a diverse party? Uh huh.

Diversity is being killed by the needing to splash this or that. What if someone wants to play a pure class?

Nokowi "Go have some fun on EH and stop complaining all the time. You seem to be having zero fun, by your own choice.

If EH is too easy, start an EH thread. I will support your efforts."

It was not my choice to have these changes to start with. Yes being killed all the time because and only because content changes to fit you sucks. Again not my choice or that of countless other players. I really do not need nor want your support. I would however like you to stop attacking every thing I say and twisting it around.

[nokowi]

If only the DDO community could support

1. Build choices that never completely eliminate challenge
2. Competing build choices (not having everything and choosing between important choices)
3. More balanced saves (either buff poor saves through gear or nerf top saves from ChaMod). All (not just a few classes) well built toons should not autofail and should only autosucceed on a main stat of (Wis, Dex, Con).
4. Some balance across classes (meaning some classes that have too much will have to give something up)

Fixing saves and having ranged toons give up something (offense, defense, backwards movement, I don't care what) wouldn't solve most issues.


We could then have both damage and non-damage challenge, with diverse groups.

The alternative is challenge through abilities that completely ignore build. Huge damage spikes are an example of this.

[IronClan]

Inquiring minds want to know: Where is the line between "Tactics are useless in this content" and "cheese tactics"?

Damage in the raids is intentionally up compared to the previous build, where things were fairly trivial. Exact numbers are still being adjusted. Just telling us "trash mobs are doing 2000+ damage" doesn't really help us look into it - Which monsters, what kind of attacks?

That said, you all have plenty of creativity and tools at your disposal to mitigate damage. The damage you're taking (after all of your considerable stacking defenses) should not be trivial. Tactics and CC can and should be used.

Cheese: tactics that are not designed into the game and that often work 100% with no saves or mitigation possible

Examples of cheese:

Sable boss fight EE go to lower corner below pillars, AI pathing will cause boss and mobs to go upstairs (directly above you) where they can not hit you, but you can hit them with ranged and drop firewalls on them get aggro, and then have person break middle pillar while you keep all the mobs on you. Kill boss with impunity.

ToEE Pt2 end fight: enter fight get Hez's to spawn, DDoor out come back Hez's will teleport one by one (as you pull them) outside the barrier to be killed easilly
Spawn them again plus Dretches, do same thing, this time get Dretch agrro with one person and have them stay outside go inside while outside person "barrier tanks" and kill them as you will with only Zug lady presenting any danger.
Get three armed guys aggro outside barrier, kill mushroom lady kill three armed guy after boss lady is dead.

cheese tactics.... meta gaming in all likelihood it's how 4 people have completed LE shroud on Lam already.

[nokowi]

Really? I do not demand things be worked around me.

Why can't I run EE? Why must it always be EN or EH because you want it to be to your challenge level?

You can run EE. Who is stopping you?

Because you are a casual gamer, the top level of difficulty should not be designed around you.

CASUAL GAMER:

I get hit for 1500 damage on EE and I go to the forums to complain.
I refuse to adjust my play to my surroundings.


POWER GAMER

I get hit for 1500 damage, notice it is a critical. I look at my fortification. How can I increase it? I build in higher fortification and check to see if I still take criticals. If I am still taking criticals, I go to the forums (or Wiki) and try to find out what fortification is needed. I might ask someone how to get my fortification even higher.

I adjust my build/play to overcome challenges.


POWER GAMERS learn over time and become better players.
CASUAL GAMERS play a long time and don't improve much.

[Holymunchkin]

cheese tactics.... meta gaming in all likelihood it's how 4 people have completed LE shroud on Lam already.

LE shroud was not 4-manned after patch 4 (the damage patch).
TS has been.

[nokowi]

I would however like you to stop attacking every thing I say and twisting it around.

When you stop demanding elite be designed around casual gamers, I will stop disagreeing with you.

All skill/build/play levels should have a chance to play this game and have fun. This includes POWER GAMERS, which you leave in the dust with your suggestions.




I will support your experiences as accurate, as well as what would make the game fun for you.

I am not attacking you for your skills or play choices.

I want you to have fun playing this game.


I simply don't want you to ruin other people's fun by having ELITE designed around casual gamers.
You seem unable to understand this last point.

[Starla70]

You can run EE. Who is stopping you?

Because you are a casual gamer, the top level of difficulty should not be designed around you.

CASUAL GAMER:

I get hit for 1500 damage on EE and I go to the forums to complain.
I refuse to adjust my play to my surroundings.


POWER GAMER

I get hit for 1500 damage, notice it is a critical. I look at my fortification. How can I increase it? I build in higher fortification and check to see if I still take criticals. If I am still taking criticals, I go to the forums (or Wiki) and try to find out what fortification is needed. I might ask someone how to get my fortification even higher.

I adjust my build/play to overcome challenges.


POWER GAMERS learn over time and become better players.
CASUAL GAMERS play a long time and don't improve much.

Interesting assumptions. So, you are admitting that you and only you and the power gamers should have anything to say now? And that is the issue with the forums all wrapped up and tied with a bow. Merry Christmas everyone!

[Nascoe]

[QUOTE=Starla70;5740884]Really? I do not demand things be worked around me.

"Why can't I run EE? Why must it always be EN or EH because you want it to be to your challenge level?"

Ehm, ok. We are talking about the raids (and quests) that should form END GAME here. And not just the normal, or the hard difficulty, but the toughest that the game is offering. And which should give us something to strive towards and enjoy for months to go.

Surely then to finish those quests, and complete them on the hardest difficulty available should require a combination of the best gear we will be able to make, well built characters with a solid buildup (including a decent amount of twists, EPL and PL) a group knowing what they are doing, and knowing what the others are going to do, and a full group or at least almost full group as well.

If we want to have a go at this content but do not have enough of the gear, the group, the fully fleshed out character and or the quest knowledge, we just have to have a go at a level that fits what we do have available and build up those characters, find/built up the group, develop the tactics and work towards the gear to do so at the highest level.

Sure, I don't think anyone here really is thrilled that the challenge comes from super hard hitting mobs. Yes, it would be far more fun to have a completely new mechanic, crazily fun AI that surprises us etc. But some of these raids are just Legendary-upped versions of the heroic ones because we are playing a game that is a decade old and there are not really enough resources to develop too much of that. Shame. You are perfectly right to point out the fact that its not great. I am very glad you do.

But given the choice between being super deadly and being solo-able by quite a few players within a week from coming out without a sweat, I think the deadly option is slightly better.

[slarden]

EN chain is the fastest way to get gear. If you just want the gear, and want to explore all the corners, without power gaming, run the chain on EN or EH.

The only thing useful gearwise that drops on EE is mythic versions. They also drop on EH/EN.

Why exactly do you need to run EE?

I don't understand how EN can be the fastest way to get an item. Drop rates are way lower for everything. I have no idea how many mushrooms drop on EN in TOEE, but it's only 1-3 on EH so you need 100 chests to make a single items vs. less than 50 on EE. It's probably 150 or more on EN.

Regardless of difficulty you are capped at 8 runs per week per character. I am not just not seeing how EN is ever the fastest way to get loot.

[Starla70]

Not to mention EN is going to give you EN gear. Most everyone would like better then that. The drop rates and lower, which you are right would mean more running of each quest.

[Dandonk]

I want these raids and quests to be challenging. But for all build types - pushing a large part of the players into playing ranged builds so they can kite and just not get hit, that's not a good way for the game to go IMO. This large damage also eliminates the need/use for healing, which again I think is a bad choice.

I'd love for tanks and healers to be useful. CC as well.

What I don't want is parties of ranged people completing the content with few problems while melees get stomped.

All I'm saying is that the challenge should be about equal. Melee, ranged, casters, whatever - all should have mobs/abilities designed to counter them.

I love my mechanic builds. I do. But sometimes I want to play melee also. There should be room for both in the new content.

[Vanhooger]

Really? I do not demand things be worked around me.

Why can't I run EE? Why must it always be EN or EH because you want it to be to your challenge level?

Lol. Sometimes I ask myself, why I can't play like CR7?

You can run EE, but before you do that you just need to learn how.

I remember I wasn't able to do EE years ago, then day by day I started challenging myself and see how far I could go and learn from mistake made and find the right tactics/build choice/ gear / pl.

If you're not willing to do so, you shouldn't be able to do EE.

This work on RL too. Ask yourself why some people does have success and some not?

[nokowi]

Interesting assumptions. So, you are admitting that you and only you and the power gamers should have anything to say now? And that is the issue with the forums all wrapped up and tied with a bow. Merry Christmas everyone!

Power Gamers should dictate the top level of difficulty in the game.

Those who are not interested in power gaming should ask for a separate level of difficulty that appeals to them.

Notice how I included everybody, and not just myself? Who is the Scrooge?

[Nascoe]

You can run EE. Who is stopping you?

Because you are a casual gamer, the top level of difficulty should not be designed around you.

CASUAL GAMER:

I get hit for 1500 damage on EE and I go to the forums to complain.
I refuse to adjust my play to my surroundings.


POWER GAMER

I get hit for 1500 damage, notice it is a critical. I look at my fortification. How can I increase it? I build in higher fortification and check to see if I still take criticals. If I am still taking criticals, I go to the forums (or Wiki) and try to find out what fortification is needed. I might ask someone how to get my fortification even higher.

I adjust my build/play to overcome challenges.


POWER GAMERS learn over time and become better players.
CASUAL GAMERS play a long time and don't improve much.

Sorry, but that is just not fair Nokowi. YEah, sure a casual gamer will not go as far or fast to adjust the lack of gear or their build. And they might be far less worried about dying or not being fast or efficient. But coming somewhere to complain, be it the forums, or in game chat or whereever is in no way tied in to either being a casual or a power gamer at all.

I know far more casual gamers who just ask people they know to have better game knowledge for help. Either in game in their guild, or on the forums. The Casual thing is not about not being interested in doing something different. More about not worrying about being effective or about spending less time and effort being as effective.

Now, lets stop from derailing the discussion. This is not about who is what kind of gamer, or even whether such a distinction can even be made. And it also should not be about who is right or who is wrong. We should instead be discussing whether what turbine showed us so far on Lammannia has a chance of posing challenge at a high level.

Taking in account the limited ressources Turbine has available at this time in the games cycle we probably will have to settle for a high risk of 1-2 shotting being as best as we can get here. Not great, but probably better than being able to complete on Elite without too much effort.

[slarden]

Can't speak for everyone, but I don't want LE raids to be easier, I want them to be better. Removing one-shot mobs is the first step (of several steps that should have been taken in the, what, over a year this has been in development?)

I don't think I'm entitled to elite completions, I don't want to rush into a group of mobs, spam cleaves and win or whatever other nonsense position you believe me and others are taking, I want quality content, and this is not quality.

But, you know, this dance we've had update after update, I'm probably better off just giving up. Bring on the OHKO mobs! Just give me some time to TR from Human Acrobat to Halfling Fighter Splash Acrobat so I can get some more dodge cap (current limit for pure rogue acro is, what, 38%? +3 Halfling, +3 Fighter, +4 legendary feat that gives dodge cap increase... Improved Uncanny Dodge, Meld Into Darkness, Revels facemask... 57 seconds of 98% dodge... hmm I think I'm onto something).

Or maybe I can save the trouble, and convince my guildies to move on to a different game. Maybe they'll budge this time.

Requires teamwork... sure.

Requires a diverse party? Uh huh.

The things in bold do not equate. The content is really hard as the devs finally came up with something people can't power through with high prr/dps and exploit builds and people are threatening to quit - the same people that chastise others for complaining on the forums for complaining about difficulty.

I find this amusing more than anything else. You basically are seeing what it's like to be in someone else's shoes, but instead of following your own advice and adjusting to the quest instead of asking for an easy button - you ask for an easy button.

I don't care what Turbine does - I am sure they will cave and make it easier so people can get their elite completions by powering through content with fotm and exploit bulids, but they should ignore these same people when they complain about the game being too easy in the future lol. When Turbine finally created something they couldn't power through they immediately complained their build didn't work any more instead of using tactics to complete.