Is 2000+ damage a swing from trash mobs WAI?

[Thrudh]

Thrudh, why don't you actually run some high level content on EE first.. and then talk.

Trash mobs one-shoting us is not difficult -- it is just annoying. This weekend all of the raids on LE have been completed. LE Tempest Spine was basically two manned; LE Shroud was done without too much difficulty -- and LE HoX was done today (which was a lot of fun and a decent challenge). However, in none of these instances was the incoming damage a increase to difficulty -- all it did was cause us to use "cheese" tactics (in some cases) and invalidate a large swath of builds.

At this point make mobs do 1 million damage per hit.. the results are the same... and our solution is the same.. just don't get hit. It doesn't make it harder, it just makes it silly.

Explain what you mean by "cheese" tactics. Explain how mobs stunning you or tripping you or casting spells on you won't also just be called "annoying, not difficult". Explain how it invalidated a large swatch of builds yet somehow the difficulty remains the same.

Obviously, mobs killing you in one shot makes the quest more difficult. At least for some builds, as you said. It's ridiculous to say it doesn't. It's like you are making up your own words here.

Is it the right way to increase difficulty? Maybe not... But it does make the quests harder.

[Thrudh]

People are not complaining that trash is dangerous.

Actually many people are... But I will accept that you are not...

The fact of the matter is that one-hit one-kill enemies are bad design. They are the laziest, cheapest, least interesting route when making "difficult" content, and to top it off it disproportionately favors the builds that don't need to be in melee range.

I can agree with this, if ALL enemies are one-hit, one-kill. Is that the case? Or are we talking only champs? Or only some mobs?

[ArekDorun]

Explain how mobs stunning you or tripping you or casting spells on you won't also just be called "annoying, not difficult".

Because if a monster one-shots you, the only option is for you to be Resurrected, which gives you a penalty to your HP, your Saves, etc. If you were already getting one-shot, this just makes it easier for the moster to one-shot you again. If you get tripped/kd/stunned/held, at least you can call out to your team that you're helpless for a few seconds and may need some attention from the healer, preventing you from actually getting killed in the first place assuming the party cooperates. It also gives the party a bit more time to react to a monster that does that kind of stuff (by CC'ing it or if it's a redname like Nimrisir having a tank with immunity to its special CC ability tank it).

Explain how it invalidated a large swatch of builds yet somehow the difficulty remains the same.

It invalidates all melee dps builds because they have to be in melee range of the mobs to deal damage, but they generally cannot take a 3k hit (pre-mitigation) and survive. Even many melee tanks are going to have trouble staying alive when they're being hit so hard.

Obviously, mobs killing you in one shot makes the quest more difficult. At least for some builds, as you said. It's ridiculous to say it doesn't. It's like you are making up your own words here.

Is it the right way to increase difficulty? Maybe not... But it does make the quests harder.

Is getting one-shot more difficult? If it causes wipes, yes...otherwise no. Getting one-shot is annoying, and can cause the quest to take longer (while the players wait out their rez penalties, for example), without making it any harder.

--ArekDorun

[Urjak]

I think you missed the word "Cheese" when quoting me.

So, serious question. Have you ran the new raids on EE this weekend?

I actually wanted to, but when I was on Lamma there was an amazing number of 3 other players online - kinda guessed that running LE raids with 4 people (assuming the others would have been willing to try) would be pointless ...

[Vanhooger]

Because if a monster one-shots you, the only option is for you to be Resurrected, which gives you a penalty to your HP, your Saves, etc. If you were already getting one-shot, this just makes it easier for the moster to one-shot you again. If you get tripped/kd/stunned/held, at least you can call out to your team that you're helpless for a few seconds and may need some attention from the healer, preventing you from actually getting killed in the first place assuming the party cooperates. It also gives the party a bit more time to react to a monster that does that kind of stuff (by CC'ing it or if it's a redname like Nimrisir having a tank with immunity to its special CC ability tank it).
--ArekDorun

This. As well healing is invalidated. Cleric/fvs should just bring resurrection.

Also, you can build you're toon that if you're held or stunned you have a epic feat called forced escape, but I guess it's not an option cos you will lose a feat to take a defensive one (WHHHAATTT...i need to sacrifice dpsssss! No WAYYY! I really HAVE to make a CHOiCE!? What does that mean?!?!? Defense or moar dps! How did that happened? I WANT MAX DPS and MAX DEFENSE at the same time! DOOOOM!

People just want everyting, big hp, high save, unbelivable defense & massive DPS + immunities. How can you challenge such powercreep?

It's pointless arguing that since most people think the only challenge we can have is big hit/big hp.

As I said so many time here in the forum, you can add special ability to mob & remove player immunities & you'll got a challenge without going mad with damage/hp, but I guess Dev didn't read any thread here in the forum with player suggestion on how to add challenge.

Dev, why don't you add a couple of zero at those number, because if they hit for 1,5k + or 150k I'll be oneshotted anyway so doesn't really matter.

One shot, two shot & massive hp is BAD Design, period.

Can't wait for Update 30. I expect mob to hit for 4k at least with billion of hitpoint! Such fun!

Now if number will still the same on live all you're going to see is, ranged build dominate with a couple of cleric carrying only resurrection.

Ps. Enemy Caster are deadly usually only with two spell. Disintegrate & polar ray, for nearly any other spell we got either high mrr or uber no fail save or some immunity. This tell me how bad is the state of the game.

[Beethoven]

This wasn't true in the early days of DDO, and it wasn't true when epic first came out.

I consider it a failure of the devs making the game so easy that people actually get upset that non-boss monsters pose any threat at all.

"But they are trash!! We shouldn't have to spend any time killing trash! And trash shouldn't be able to kill us!! That's just CRRAAAZY!"

Stop making things up to support your argument.

It was absolutely true during the early days of DDO. You just did not have a /decade/ of practice playing the game, so it may have appeared more difficult.

Back when Shroud came first out I could take my Tempest build in there with enough AC elite trash could barely touch him, I was immune to most will-based spells (FoM, Prot. f. EVil) and nigh untouchable by reflex based spells (evasion).

The reason grouping was encouraged wasn't because mobs would regularly one- and two-shot you in elite Shroud, it was because Harry would actually be able overcome your defenses and individual dps vs boss HP was so low it would take forever.

Similar is true when Epics first came out, the first day I could actually take my light armor Tempest into Wizard King (epic) and could easily take four to five hits before I had to heal up. What we are seeing in the recent Llamania build is a completely different extreme.

People are not upset because non-boss mobs pose a threat, players criticize that the current Llamania build leaves no room for build diversity or different play-styles whatsoever.

Using the environment, strategy or tactics are not going to cut it when all mobs hit hard enough to one- or two-shot you. It's twitch or go home.

The hit box, latency issues and potential for lag spikes (alone due to the fact of being connected through the internet) is not accommodating to stay close to anything really, so it becomes ranged or go home.

Personally, I do agree that dedicating an entire difficulty into pigeonholing everyone into one playstyle on specific build is not challenge, it is - sorry to say it, dumb. Or can you think of any build and playstyle that performs similiar to a twitch ranged toon in the current Llamania build?

Finally, I like the idea someone proposed earlier about decreasing damage and increasing attack speed. It would open the playing field again to take melee in the, accommodate for actual tanks and encourage cooperation.

Obviously, mobs killing you in one shot makes the quest more difficult. At least for some builds, as you said. It's ridiculous to say it doesn't.

That's exactly the problem though. It makes the quest/raid more difficult for /some/ builds, thus pigeonholing everyone into playing one type of build. Twelve Monckers/Warlocks/Savants playing by themselves with no actual cooperation are going to fare much better in that content than a group consisting of front line melees, clerics and dc casters even if they try cooperate.

Is it the right way to increase difficulty? Maybe not... But it does make the quests harder.

[/quote]

Rolling a couple a dice to randomly nuke toons from orbit would make things more difficult too, doesn't mean I'd like to see it as design for the next raid though.

I am fine with making it more difficult. However, I don't believe that one-shoting folks = difficulty. It just means you can't get hit.

Let's add some difficulty; I am even okay if the mobs can one-shot after they get a buff (think Death Knights), as then it is not always on and we can use mitigation tactics. There have been lots of suggestions for upping the difficulty on shroud (giving Harry invulnerability until gnolls are dead, force us to seprate bosses in part 2, etc... ) that have nothing to do with one-shoting toons.

Those suggestions and others would up with difficulty level. Just having mobs do more damage doesn't make things harder.. it just makes it annoying

+1

[Ayseifn]

First I have not run these new raids so don't know the details, having issues getting Lamannia updated.

That said you can have one shot kills work and not ostracise melees as has been said here. Heroic HoX had beholders, some doggies to kite/charm, a big dog to tank/kite and reavers. Most* melees have high fort so can twist in no fail fort saves if disint is the big killer for them there and attack those beholders, a lot of ranged builds(cleric/sorc/wiz/arti/ranger/rogue/etc) generally have bad fort saves so can target the reavers from range while trying to avoid the beholders.

If it were balanced then melee could hit up the beholders and ranged could deal with reavers with neither feeling unwelcome in the raid, DDO used to balance with content rather than classes and it worked ok. Not great by any means but workable. If ranged can take out beholders almost as easily as melee while also being the only ones that can deal with reavers(which sounds like the case) that's pretty bad and everyone with a brain will switch to ranged.

I'm fine with the one hit kills as I kinda like the hard counters of olden times and think they'll work well in raids, if you're doing that though you need to make a hard counter to those that don't really have one or lessen the pain for those that get crushed by everything if you want any semblance of balance.

*rogues and the like are squishy, don't think that play style will ever change.

[nokowi]

Dear Dev's,

If you want to have challenging content, melee characters need more defense than ranged toons.

Throw 40-50 PRR on melee characters and your current numbers seem reasonable. Please don't nerf content to the least common denominator.

1800 damage with 50 PRR is 900 damage on a 150 PRR toon (achievable for squishy melee toons with 40-50 extra PRR for melee). Even squishy toons in non-HP destiny should have 1100-1200 HP by level 30.



As a first thought, I would suggest that melee feats (SWF,TWF,THF) add 10 PRR each WHEN a melee weapon is equipped in the main hand. (No off-hand thrower PRR please).

[Wizza]

Dear Dev's,

If you want to have challenging content, melee characters need more defense than ranged toons.

Throw 40-50 PRR on melee characters and your current numbers seem reasonable. Please don't nerf content to the least common denominator.

1800 damage with 50 PRR is 900 damage on a 150 PRR toon (achievable for squishy melee toons with 40-50 extra PRR for melee). Even squishy toons in non-HP destiny should have 1100-1200 HP by level 30.



I would suggest that melee feats (SWF,TWF,THF) add 10 PRR each WHEN a melee weapon is equipped in the main hand. (No off-hand thrower PRR please).

LOL

The solution to the OP mess that we have at the moment is to give melees EVEN MORE PRR instead of just lowering mobs' damage? LOL


I almost spit the coffee that I don't drink on the screen.

[Epicstorms]

Oh my...

And I was actually looking forward to play these raids.
If mobs hit so hard, it's just not fun anymore.

To be honest, I think the new raids can be one of the two:
- Easy/Normal
- Annoying

Simply because how the raids are made and how much powercreep / selfheal / whatever we got the last few years.

Leave HoX aside,
I don't think the devs can make the raids challenging without making mobs one-shot you, unless in the future they make completely new raids (LoB, DQ, MA - Raids like these actually had challenge)
(Yes you can add more raids to that list, I'm just lazy :P)

Either way... These raids will be completed on elite one way or another. If you make mobs one-shot you it will simply be more annoying and people will just make it one big kite-fest.
We'll see achievements on the forum of full groups of ranged toons and calling it an 'achievement'.
Please tone down the monster damage to reasonable and make more challenging raids in the future, by excellent mechanics like LoB, DQ, MA etc. And NOT by increasing HP and damage too absurd values.

Thanks

[BigErkyKid]

Dear Dev's,

If you want to have challenging content, melee characters need more defense than ranged toons.

Throw 40-50 PRR on melee characters and your current numbers seem reasonable. Please don't nerf content to the least common denominator.

1800 damage with 50 PRR is 900 damage on a 150 PRR toon (achievable for squishy melee toons with 40-50 extra PRR for melee). Even squishy toons in non-HP destiny should have 1100-1200 HP by level 30.



As a first thought, I would suggest that melee feats (SWF,TWF,THF) add 10 PRR each WHEN a melee weapon is equipped in the main hand. (No off-hand thrower PRR please).

I do not agree with this.

The problem is that the way they design challenge and mobs always goes on one side: mobs hit really hard. They DBs and hit really hard.

Mobs should be designed to challenge different builds. So some trash should be more manageable on dodgy characters and other in pRR/DR characters.

But no, they are not doing that. They are simply having mobs be skins of the same. They DBs, they hit hard.

So the solution is always the same: PRR/HPs. And when even that is impossible, exploit the broken ranged combat.

[Ayseifn]

Dear Dev's,

If you want to have challenging content, melee characters need more defense than ranged toons.

Better off going the other way and making ranged dangerous, previously it was solved with ranged needing too much SP to effectively solo everything without a ton of pots but that's not very good. Hopefully the new devs can bring on something smarter to challenge ranged builds.

[Ayseifn]

Oh my...

And I was actually looking forward to play these raids.
If mobs hit so hard, it's just not fun anymore.

To be honest, I think the new raids can be one of the two:
- Easy/Normal
- Annoying

That's a big fear I have, why run Elite if it's only a chance at +2 quality PRR or whatever when I already have over 200 PRR? Doesn't seem to be enough reason to run Elite yet but the whole token thing where I also get an item on average once per 7 runs instead of 25 might be enough. Have to see how it goes on live after some time but it could work.

I do not agree with this.

The problem is that the way they design challenge and mobs always goes on one side: mobs hit really hard. They DBs and hit really hard.

Mobs should be designed to challenge different builds. So some trash should be more manageable on dodgy characters and other in pRR/DR characters.

But no, they are not doing that. They are simply having mobs be skins of the same. They DBs, they hit hard.

So the solution is always the same: PRR/HPs. And when even that is impossible, exploit the broken ranged combat.

That's the real problem. We have 3 AI's(melee, ranged and caster) as well as a few other select ones but those three really dominate and scaling up/down stats like saves, damage, SR, HP and so on can hurt caster and melees depending on what you do but mundane ranged toons will never feel the pinch as bad.

Mundane ranged don't have SP or DC issues like casters, don't have PRR issues like melee and are still relatively newish* in the DDOverse as a play style. The devs either need to nerf them hard(terrible idea) or give them some hard counters in challenging content. Not sure what to do to challenge them equally as casters or melees but I'm not as smart as the devs so hopefully they can figure out something.

*MotU? Pre F2P they may have had something but that's before my time and didn't really exist from F2P til maybe MotU.

[Vanhooger]

Dear Dev's,

If you want to have challenging content, melee characters need more defense than ranged toons.

Throw 40-50 PRR on melee characters and your current numbers seem reasonable. Please don't nerf content to the least common denominator.

1800 damage with 50 PRR is 900 damage on a 150 PRR toon (achievable for squishy melee toons with 40-50 extra PRR for melee). Even squishy toons in non-HP destiny should have 1100-1200 HP by level 30.



As a first thought, I would suggest that melee feats (SWF,TWF,THF) add 10 PRR each WHEN a melee weapon is equipped in the main hand. (No off-hand thrower PRR please).

This time I have to disagree. More prr/mrr won't solve the issue imho.

As well I don't see the whole point of armor up update. It is being invalidate completely with new legendary stuff.

[Epicstorms]

That's a big fear I have, why run Elite if it's only a chance at +2 quality PRR or whatever when I already have over 200 PRR? Doesn't seem to be enough reason to run Elite yet but the whole token thing where I also get an item on average once per 7 runs instead of 25 might be enough. Have to see how it goes on live after some time but it could work.

To clarify, I'm actually only talking about Elite What I mean is that no matter what they will do, Elite will either be easy or annoying. Simply because it lacks mechanics to make it difficult besides increasing HP / damage output.

[JOTMON]

This. As well healing is invalidated. Cleric/fvs should just bring resurrection.

Also, you can build you're toon that if you're held or stunned you have a epic feat called forced escape, but I guess it's not an option cos you will lose a feat to take a defensive one (WHHHAATTT...i need to sacrifice dpsssss! No WAYYY! I really HAVE to make a CHOiCE!? What does that mean?!?!? Defense or moar dps! How did that happened? I WANT MAX DPS and MAX DEFENSE at the same time! DOOOOM!

People just want everyting, big hp, high save, unbelivable defense & massive DPS + immunities. How can you challenge such powercreep?

It's pointless arguing that since most people think the only challenge we can have is big hit/big hp.

As I said so many time here in the forum, you can add special ability to mob & remove player immunities & you'll got a challenge without going mad with damage/hp, but I guess Dev didn't read any thread here in the forum with player suggestion on how to add challenge.

Dev, why don't you add a couple of zero at those number, because if they hit for 1,5k + or 150k I'll be oneshotted anyway so doesn't really matter.

One shot, two shot & massive hp is BAD Design, period.

Can't wait for Update 30. I expect mob to hit for 4k at least with billion of hitpoint! Such fun!

Now if number will still the same on live all you're going to see is, ranged build dominate with a couple of cleric carrying only resurrection.

Ps. Enemy Caster are deadly usually only with two spell. Disintegrate & polar ray, for nearly any other spell we got either high mrr or uber no fail save or some immunity. This tell me how bad is the state of the game.

Pretty much ^ This..

Unavoidable one shot damage is bad for the game.
It invalidates the already near pointless clerics. cant heal dead.. so they become rez monkeys.

Smarter mob damage is what we want to see in challenges, not unavoidable 1 shot kills.

Von6.. Dragon puffs breath to give arning that you need to hide behind the rocks or have great saves for breath damage.. it gives all party members a chance to survive, not just the bastardized evasion builds.
LOB boss had a tell before whirlwind.. that was the get the hell out or die warning... kiting dogs that cast the aoe damaging blue water.
Xy'zzy had bees that screwed up concentration for scroll/non quickened casters and damage over time.. a good reason to have someone else healing you..
VOD ..Suulomades healng curse, chains, waves of mobs, traps,.. good for teamwork...
TOD.. General Horoth does marks of damage over time.. and Suulomades.. healing curse...
Chronosphere..Bloodplate dots for those that damage him in melee, his smiths that need to be dealt with and the endfight.. conjoined Conjoined Abishai Devastator.. tanking is good...

These were smart damage types of combat that encouraged teamwork, not a raid party of bastardized brute DPS solo builds. and stacks of scrolls to rez party members with BS over the top damage.
Give players options to take cover, play cat/mouse, desire a healer to cure them while they battle since healing themselves is more challenging..

This was a big fail in DOJ endfight from my perspective. it was not designed for a balanced party, it was designed for a party of solo capable bastardized evasion builds(preferably ranged), since those were the only ones that had a survival chance.
A healer that cant even keep themselves alive is of no use to the party, especially if every member of that party can carry/utilize stacks of rez scrolls, may as well take a self healing DPS'er.

The game is supposed to challenge and reward versatility and party diversity, forcing high HP builds to be survivable is a poor gaming direction that results in invalidation low HP builds and classes without clean access to PRR/MRR.

[Arlathen]

Enchant 73 landed all day long

Max-Wis AA FTW

[Thrudh]

Pretty much ^ This..

Unavoidable one shot damage is bad for the game.
It invalidates the already near pointless clerics. cant heal dead.. so they become rez monkeys.

Smarter mob damage is what we want to see in challenges, not unavoidable 1 shot kills.

Von6.. Dragon puffs breath to give arning that you need to hide behind the rocks or have great saves for breath damage.. it gives all party members a chance to survive, not just the bastardized evasion builds.
LOB boss had a tell before whirlwind.. that was the get the hell out or die warning... kiting dogs that cast the aoe damaging blue water.
Xy'zzy had bees that screwed up concentration for scroll/non quickened casters and damage over time.. a good reason to have someone else healing you..
VOD ..Suulomades healng curse, chains, waves of mobs, traps,.. good for teamwork...
TOD.. General Horoth does marks of damage over time.. and Suulomades.. healing curse...
Chronosphere..Bloodplate dots for those that damage him in melee, his smiths that need to be dealt with and the endfight.. conjoined Conjoined Abishai Devastator.. tanking is good...

These were smart damage types of combat that encouraged teamwork, not a raid party of bastardized brute DPS solo builds. and stacks of scrolls to rez party members with BS over the top damage.
Give players options to take cover, play cat/mouse, desire a healer to cure them while they battle since healing themselves is more challenging..

This was a big fail in DOJ endfight from my perspective. it was not designed for a balanced party, it was designed for a party of solo capable bastardized evasion builds(preferably ranged), since those were the only ones that had a survival chance.
A healer that cant even keep themselves alive is of no use to the party, especially if every member of that party can carry/utilize stacks of rez scrolls, may as well take a self healing DPS'er.

The game is supposed to challenge and reward versatility and party diversity, forcing high HP builds to be survivable is a poor gaming direction that results in invalidation low HP builds and classes without clean access to PRR/MRR.

Good post, and great examples of ways to challenge players.

Splitting up the lieutenants in Shroud in part 2 and part 5 used to be a good challenge, until we got so much DPS that we didn't have to split them apart anymore.

[Atremus]

Kind of worried that your average level 30 clerics/FvS would have around 1000-1100 HP outside of switching to the Sentinal Destiny to survive. If the cleric can't heal himself, why bring them? What will Arcanes do to survive that kind of damage?

[Seljuck]

Explain what you mean by "cheese" tactics. Explain how mobs stunning you or tripping you or casting spells on you won't also just be called "annoying, not difficult". Explain how it invalidated a large swatch of builds yet somehow the difficulty remains the same.

Obviously, mobs killing you in one shot makes the quest more difficult. At least for some builds, as you said. It's ridiculous to say it doesn't. It's like you are making up your own words here.

Is it the right way to increase difficulty? Maybe not... But it does make the quests harder.

Copy/paste from another thread, because You didn't answer to my question.

Explain this... why should the devs lower the damage the mobs do if this is true?

I really liked your proposals until you wrote this. Explain how 1-shot mobs are not dangerous, and if not, why do they need to be made weaker?

I see it like this:

No matter how you build your melee toon, how much prr/dodge/defenses etc you have, how much work you put in to your build, you will be one-shot, when mob hit you. If you know that he WILL hit you, because there's no way to achieve 100% miss chance or even 80%, you are not threatened by this. You know that you will die, and it's just matter of time. You have to accept this, or don't run this raids/quests.

I have a question for you. If you know, that no matter what you will do, mob kills you with one shot, you will care about your defenses? About more past lives which require lot of effort?

Because I don't. It's wasted time.