Is 2000+ damage a swing from trash mobs WAI?

[Thrudh]

You want to give us more challenge, then up magical damage, give their casters debuffs and otto boxes (or even evard's) and sleet storms. Increase the ranged damage that mobs do in general. Have mobs use trips and stuns more often.

These are good suggestions, but if they do introduce mobs that can stun and trip reliably, you guys will complain about that too... I guarentee it.

Seriously, before you up the damage of ranged toons you MUST revisit completely ranged combat, we know it is simply broken and borderline exploit. The majority of mobs SUCK at dealing ranged damage (that includes bosses) and they cannot even land hits on kiters.

LOL, how many threads are there about how unfair it is that TOEE archers hit so hard? You guys need to make up your minds.

[Thrudh]

Someone throw this man a rope, he is drowning.

It is not harder, it just means we must play differently. If melee is insane damage, we kite. Now what?

"Hard" means as in using your knowledge of the game to its best you have a hard time. It does not mean hard if you purposely choose to play a style that has been rendered gimp.

There's more to do than kite... I'm sorry you never learned how to play the game back in the day when mobs could kill you. You've been spoiled too long.

But even having to kite is preferable to just walking into a room of mobs and cleaving everything to death with zero chance of dying.

[Basura_Grande]

There's more to do than kite... I'm sorry you never learned how to play the game back in the day when mobs could kill you. You've been spoiled too long.

But even having to kite is preferable to just walking into a room of mobs and cleaving everything to death with zero chance of dying.

You should run the stuff on LE before speaking if you don't want to sound foolish

[Silverleafeon]

It must not be true if a group managed to complete it. 2000+ hits from a mob make it pretty hard to solo, but a group can raise the unlucky guys who don't manage to CC the hardest-hitting mobs in time.

I flattened everything I could with earthquake, and I was in US, so I used a quicken Rez from that ED a lot.

[Seljuck]

Nothing to add..

[Holyavatar]

Can someone tell me the average HP on mobs?thx!

[Holymunchkin]

Can someone tell me the average HP on mobs?thx!

30k-40k on LE for trash

oj's go a bit higher.

many rednames have 300k i think can't quite tell

crystal in pt 2 shroud is about 100k or something idk

[Holymunchkin]

There is no way in hell those SR numbers are reasonable.

What should be reasonable you think?
I think a question is whether the devs think that only a 3 wiz / 3 fvs pastlife caster should be able to break spell pen. If not then the pen needs to be dropped by 9.
I watched Ash / Bailey cc mobs all day today. Bailey was in EA.
Max as I'm seeing it is about 65. 62 gives you some breathing room.

[Holymunchkin]

You should run the stuff on LE before speaking if you don't want to sound foolish

+1. The fact that a group of elite players worked through all 3 raids doesn't mean that the raids are too easy. It means you should listen to what they are saying about the raid mechanics, saves, hp, and damage. People will have varying opinions about how to balance. It is obvious that melee look unviable atm. We should be encouraging group play and the devs have done a lazy job making things "too hard."
That said, I'd rather have ******** than cheesy-easy. Some people will refuse to run LE. That's fine by me. I'll be playing it.

[Thrudh]

+1. The fact that a group of elite players worked through all 3 raids doesn't mean that the raids are too easy.

They worked through the 3 raids on ELITE... Elite should be super tough... 50% of groups should fail. I have zero problem with Elite being too tough. Even broken. Beating elite should be a high-five moment. Unexpected. "Wow, we actually beat it."

if normal has mobs hitting 1500 a hit, then we can talk.

[Holymunchkin]

They worked through the 3 raids on ELITE... Elite should be super tough... 50% of groups should fail. I have zero problem with Elite being too tough. Even broken. Beating elite should be a high-five moment. Unexpected. "Wow, we actually beat it."

if normal has mobs hitting 1500 a hit, then we can talk.

Having been in a completion, and failed a serious attempt with the same group I can tell you that this isn't tough---this is "tough."
People see through mob inflation. It's a crappy form of difficulty. The raids need work. Not excuses about poor design.

[Qezuzu]

There's more to do than kite... I'm sorry you never learned how to play the game back in the day when mobs could kill you. You've been spoiled too long.

But even having to kite is preferable to just walking into a room of mobs and cleaving everything to death with zero chance of dying.

Melee damage and kiting are pretty exclusive. This level of difficulty doesn't encourage tactics, it encourages people to TR into ranged damage builds who can easily evade melee damage and who can CC things with their no-save Whistler and Pin.

But, yeah, instead of kiting, we should just CC the mobs! Then melees can be useful! Tactics, yeah!

Nothing to add..

[img]

Oh wait, we can't CC red names.

Is this what you think difficulty in DDO should be? A carnival of one-shots? When "difficulty" looks like an accident ("woops I put one too many zeroes in there"), it's fair to not call it difficulty.

There's more to do than kite... I'm sorry you never learned how to play the game back in the day when mobs could kill you. You've been spoiled too long.

These are good suggestions, but if they do introduce mobs that can stun and trip reliably, you guys will complain about that too... I guarentee it.

LOL, how many threads are there about how unfair it is that TOEE archers hit so hard? You guys need to make up your minds.

Inflammatory comments like these are not helpful. The devs either don't have the time to (or simply don't even know how) to make difficult content without simply adjusting values. Mobs using tactics and CC abilities on us instead of just straight up damage, mobs debuffing us, etc. are other ways to increase the difficulty.

Hell, if we're moving beyond epics and into legendary, it's fair enough to change the rules, even, like epic does from heroic (Charm duration, neg level regen).

At any rate, the raids need more work done on them. No ifs, ands, or buts. Yes, elite should be a triumph to complete, but not because we were able to overcome the challenge of trash that's more dangerous than the boss.

[Deathdefy]

Res ipsa loquitur.

It reminds me of "Dark License to Kill" from Goldeneye 64 - http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/19746...e-007/65989446 .

You set enemy health to 1000%, enemy damage to 1000%, enemy accuracy to 100% and enemy reaction time to 100%, then you use geometry exploits, close-circle strafing exploits, hugging people so tightly they shoot past your hitbox exploits, and interrupt animations to try and complete levels.
It was, and is for those still playing, a "challenge", but was about the least enjoyable experience ever.

[Thrudh]

Melee damage and kiting are pretty exclusive.

100% untrue.

This level of difficulty doesn't encourage tactics, it encourages people to TR into ranged damage builds who can easily evade melee damage and who can CC things with their no-save Whistler and Pin.

There are CC options for melee. You can also use the terrain, or move (is all movement called kiting?). I see nothing wrong with a good melee knowing how to move. Do you really want legendary elite raid to require nothing more than striding into a room and standing still?

Mobs using tactics and CC abilities on us instead of just straight up damage, mobs debuffing us, etc. are other ways to increase the difficulty.

Sure, I'm fine with that... I would prefer it... But I guarentee that you guys would start complaining immediately about being tripped and stunned, just like you complain about being one or two shot. But prove me wrong.. I fully support high trip and stun and hold rates by mobs instead of massive damage. But when air elementals and wolves knocked us down easily, people complained constantly.

At any rate, the raids need more work done on them. No ifs, ands, or buts. Yes, elite should be a triumph to complete, but not because we were able to overcome the challenge of trash that's more dangerous than the boss.

if i was a dev, I would totally be annoyed by players calling 98% of my quests and raids "trash", and I would totally buff them until players had to be careful through the ENTIRE quest, not just the boss fight. No one strolled casually through the "trash" mobs in the original epic quests, I can tell you that.

[Holymunchkin]

Res ipsa loquitur.

It reminds me of "Dark License to Kill" from Goldeneye 64 - http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/19746...e-007/65989446 .

You set enemy health to 1000%, enemy damage to 1000%, enemy accuracy to 100% and enemy reaction time to 100%, then you use geometry exploits, close-circle strafing exploits, hugging people so tightly they shoot past your hitbox exploits, and interrupt animations to try and complete levels.
It was, and is for those still playing, a "challenge", but was about the least enjoyable experience ever.

+1

[Holymunchkin]

if i was a dev, I would totally be annoyed by players calling 98% of my quests and raids "trash", and I would totally buff them until players had to be careful through the ENTIRE quest, not just the boss fight. No one strolled casually through the "trash" mobs in the original epic quests, I can tell you that.

lord. did you play wgu when it came out?
trash did not one shot you
it was fun
you respected the mobs

its really not that hard to envision something comparable

If I were a dev, I'd be a dev.
Then I would look at how much time I have left before the release.
Then I'd do what I could.

If they can tune it up by 200% in lama then they can tune it to 66% and then give mobs global haste to compensate.
Twitching is great. I encourage it. But we can't twitch heal. I might as well dump CON at this point if not for my fort save.

Taking away player movement speed is absolutely necessary to decrease the bonus to kiting.

We do not need LE shroud to be diablo 3's inferno with only dps gear on in pt 2.

[Qezuzu]

There are CC options for melee. You can also use the terrain, or move (is all movement called kiting?). I see nothing wrong with a good melee knowing how to move.

In my experience the hitboxes in this game are not good enough to manually avoid being hit (if you aim to get in some melee hits yourself). Your character's hitbox lags behind your actual position by at least a good second.

Certainly WASD skills are good for avoiding some damage, even most, and positioning yourself is important, but we're talkinga margin of error of one hit. But if you can demonstrate 100% effective WASD skills while still getting decent DPS in, that'd be great, it'd be educational for all of us.

As for CC options for melees: I'm well aware. Web traps and Sweeping Strikes carry me through quite a lot of difficult content.

Do you really want legendary elite raid to require nothing more than striding into a room and standing still?

Yup. That's totally what I want. I just want to hold down Mouse1 and win

I guarentee that you guys would start complaining immediately about being tripped and stunned, just like you complain about being one or two shot.

Whatever group "you guys" is, I'm not a part of them. I want the devs to turn evil and create some absolutely diabolical enemies. Air Elementals, Battleragers, jerks like those. You want to CC the Air Elemental not because it can one shot you, but because f#*%ing dammit just die!! What I don't want them to do is take the same mobs from Heroic shroud and just pump up their stats.

if i was a dev, I would totally be annoyed by players calling 98% of my quests and raids "trash", and I would totally buff them until players had to be careful through the ENTIRE quest, not just the boss fight. No one strolled casually through the "trash" mobs in the original epic quests, I can tell you that.

Uhhh... Any enemy that is not a boss is a trash mob, that's the definition used in every RPG. I wouldn't know why an MMO dev would be annoyed by people calling trash mobs, trash mobs.

[Thrudh]

Uhhh... Any enemy that is not a boss is a trash mob, that's the definition used in every RPG. I wouldn't know why an MMO dev would be annoyed by people calling trash mobs, trash mobs.

This wasn't true in the early days of DDO, and it wasn't true when epic first came out.

I consider it a failure of the devs making the game so easy that people actually get upset that non-boss monsters pose any threat at all.

"But they are trash!! We shouldn't have to spend any time killing trash! And trash shouldn't be able to kill us!! That's just CRRAAAZY!"

[Andoris]

This wasn't true in the early days of DDO, and it wasn't true when epic first came out.

I consider it a failure of the devs making the game so easy that people actually get upset that non-boss monsters pose any threat at all.

"But they are trash!! We shouldn't have to spend any time killing trash! And trash shouldn't be able to kill us!! That's just CRRAAAZY!"

Thrudh, why don't you actually run some high level content on EE first.. and then talk.

Trash mobs one-shoting us is not difficult -- it is just annoying. This weekend all of the raids on LE have been completed. LE Tempest Spine was basically two manned; LE Shroud was done without too much difficulty -- and LE HoX was done today (which was a lot of fun and a decent challenge). However, in none of these instances was the incoming damage a increase to difficulty -- all it did was cause us to use "cheese" tactics (in some cases) and invalidate a large swath of builds.

At this point make mobs do 1 million damage per hit.. the results are the same... and our solution is the same.. just don't get hit. It doesn't make it harder, it just makes it silly.

[Qezuzu]

This wasn't true in the early days of DDO, and it wasn't true when epic first came out.

...

"But they are trash!! We shouldn't have to spend any time killing trash! And trash shouldn't be able to kill us!! That's just CRRAAAZY!"

If it's not a boss it is trash, it doesn't matter how strong it is. This is the definition of a trash mob, in every game that it applies to since forever. Even real-time strategy games use the term, and in those, those are your units!

I consider it a failure of the devs making the game so easy that people actually get upset that non-boss monsters pose any threat at all.

People are not complaining that trash is dangerous. Trash has always been dangerous in the highest-level content, at least for the most part.

The fact of the matter is that one-hit one-kill enemies are bad design. They are the laziest, cheapest, least interesting route when making "difficult" content, and to top it off it disproportionately favors the builds that don't need to be in melee range.

They're calling this "legendary" content, it's beyond epic, but as far as I can tell it's just a continuation of epic, with mobs scaled up even more. If they can't design well-thought-out enemies that's fine, we have to acknowledge they have limitations, but if they feel one-shots are the only way to challenge a raid group, then there's a problem somewhere (IMO that problem is players being able to heal way too fast, and that the solution would be to scale back healing capabilities (at least just in legendary content), but of course there are other solutions).