Is 2000+ damage a swing from trash mobs WAI?

[Qhualor]

I did want to address this question by making sure people understand that we do not design raids, particularly end-game raids, to be solo-able. So, yes, if you are talking about running an end-game Legendary Elite raid, then we do build it with the expectation of a balanced party. We realize that there are players out there that can, and will, work around any challenge presented to them with skill, gear, and build expertise, but we do not design Legendary Elite raids with the solo or duo player(s) in mind.

Sort of related, but there are raid groups for DoJ and Thunderholme that intentionally take give or take 8 players to deal with less lag on any difficulty setting. Raids may be designed with a 12 man balanced party in mind, but lag limits some groups wanting to fill. This can limit options in raid groups and just one reason why some groups run normal instead of hard or elite.

[Basura_Grande]

Sort of related, but there are raid groups for DoJ and Thunderholme that intentionally take give or take 8 players to deal with less lag on any difficulty setting. Raids may be designed with a 12 man balanced party in mind, but lag limits some groups wanting to fill. This can limit options in raid groups and just one reason why some groups run normal instead of hard or elite.

EE DOJ is fine with 12, just leave the warlocks home, nobody turn on auras, and take off your Eidolon's necklaces.

YMMV depending on your server.

[Epicstorms]

I did want to address this question by making sure people understand that we do not design raids, particularly end-game raids, to be solo-able. So, yes, if you are talking about running an end-game Legendary Elite raid, then we do build it with the expectation of a balanced party. We realize that there are players out there that can, and will, work around any challenge presented to them with skill, gear, and build expertise, but we do not design Legendary Elite raids with the solo or duo player(s) in mind.

I don't think you're going to make these raids not solo/duo-able by giving mobs the ability to one-shot players. We will just see ranged toons that managed to kite around all monsters. Yay.

[sudzz]

All you whingers do not understand the simple fact that these EE Legendary quest are MEANT to be tough for any toon that is not top tier with the best of gear, if you are not equipped enough to run EE at this CR then run it lower until you have got geared/pl/tr enough, I ran through this on my first lifer with the best equipment in a full raid party and while there were deaths they were not all mine. Can't wait to start the grind to get him completionist as hopefully by then there will something harder for him to do else why bother with the grind in the first place?

[JOTMON]

How many EE DOJs do you have under your belt?

I'm at close to 100 completions. We just love being lectured by the mediocre.

100 Epic Elite DOJ completions.. that's pretty impressive. .
my 3 EE completions pale in your uberness.. I am around the same total but 90ish of them were EN runs.. with a spattering of hard runs..
2 of those EE's were done during my Warlock lives and all 3 were with with shortman groups....we never did get a full party to work without crippling lag.

[davmuzl]

You need 3000 dmg to kill a character with 1500 hp and 100 prr. A lot of characters get that, so the damage numbers seem to be about where they should be. Just shows what's going wrong in the game.

[Jasparion]

I did want to address this question by making sure people understand that we do not design raids, particularly end-game raids, to be solo-able. So, yes, if you are talking about running an end-game Legendary Elite raid, then we do build it with the expectation of a balanced party. We realize that there are players out there that can, and will, work around any challenge presented to them with skill, gear, and build expertise, but we do not design Legendary Elite raids with the solo or duo player(s) in mind.

So the choice will be:
12 ranged players with pretty much whatever gear they want because the best players will get aggro and be in charge of kiting, while the others are just adding their DPS and taking no damage
or
1 or 2 tanks, 1 or 2 healers, and then a mix of melee and ranged where the melee must have at least X HP and Y PRR/MRR to ensure that the stray hits from mob weapons and spells dont 1-shot them.

Any guesses which one we will see 99% of the time?

How does one deal with the 'cheese' tactic of kiting everything? The ability is already in the game - djinn in VoN6 have the right idea. When "X" mob/boss is hit, use the (djinn in von 6) or (Diablo 3 champion/elite ability called 'vortex') and pull said player next to it, apply binding chains and hit it for 3k damage, like they do to melee builds. This same tactic/ability can be applied to any ranged damage offender (like casters). This change will make the raid harder without having to hit players for 3k damage. It's a smarter way to make it hard than just 'give it x100hp and hit x10 harder' that the devs are currently using.

This is exactly the sort of game mechanic we need to see more of. Mobs with different abilities that make them more or less effective against different classes/builds.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

How many EE DOJs do you have under your belt?

I'm at close to 100 completions. We just love being lectured by the mediocre.

Apparently building muscles doing laps around the circle does not prepare one for the dangers of the maze.

[patang01]

I did want to address this question by making sure people understand that we do not design raids, particularly end-game raids, to be solo-able. So, yes, if you are talking about running an end-game Legendary Elite raid, then we do build it with the expectation of a balanced party. We realize that there are players out there that can, and will, work around any challenge presented to them with skill, gear, and build expertise, but we do not design Legendary Elite raids with the solo or duo player(s) in mind.

Simple question, do you think it matters much for the guy who get hit by trash mobs doing 1500 if there's only 5 people or 12? Because the issue as I see it is not that skills matters one single bit if the damage is that high. I mean I read some of the objections but they seem to, and you as well, that this is not a question about skill. Skill would be if there was a genuine way in place to negate that amount of damage - but we're not talking about 2-3 hits and then you're splat. We're talking about 1 hit for the average player, maybe 2 for a well geared and right class.

Just to overexplain; no one can show any type of superior skill and gear if one hit smacks them gone. That's not challenge - that's like building a game where no one can get hit, like ever. No amount of skills can fix that silliness.

[KLJJ]

EE DOJ is fine with 12, just leave the warlocks home, nobody turn on auras, and take off your Eidolon's necklaces.

YMMV depending on your server.

Wow, you think those things cause lag? Just... wow.

[slarden]

EE DOJ is fine with 12, just leave the warlocks home, nobody turn on auras, and take off your Eidolon's necklaces.

YMMV depending on your server.

I've been in 6-man groups with no warlocks and no tree builds and we lagged. Not sure about necklaces, but I think most people ditched those by now anyhow.

The most consistent lag spikes I see are:
1) Right after the gate closes and the ambush starts
2) When the double-wave of reinforcements start
3) When the worm fight starts
4) Right when the end boss goes down

If they can figure out what causes those lag spikes maybe they can find related problems in other code. Warlock aura may contribute, but the lag there is specific to those activities even if no warlocks are around. I also think tree builds are more likely to contribute to lag than warlocks in general.

If I see lag after killing the first 2 executioners I know the whole raid is going to suck and maybe even wipe.

[geoffhanna]

Does this mean we are expected to have tanks now?

So, yes, if you are talking about running an end-game Legendary Elite raid, then we do build it with the expectation of a balanced party.

I meant tanks in the WoW tank-and-spank sense. Are you defining "balanced party" in the holy triumvirate sense of tank, DPS and heals? Or in the traditional D&D sense of melee, caster, healer, rogue?

[Basura_Grande]

Apparently building muscles doing laps around the circle does not prepare one for the dangers of the maze.

So how many EE DOJs have you completed? Can the drummer Def Leopard count them his left arm?

[eris2323]

For the very low cost of 5 AS each, I will, quite willingly, call the WHA-MULANCE for all you crybabies.

It's evident dev ability to modify the mobs AI is limited. So, since the choices seem to be A) make it easier so the crybabies stop whining, or B) keep it hard so people can have a challenge and modify it in the future....

I'm gonna keep my vote on B.

And you all make me sad.

I *LIKE* the idea we may need dedicated tanks, dedicated healers, dedicated CC experts... it will encourage others to make a full party. Except maybe for the .001% crowd of 'OMG I MUST BE THE BEST AT EVERYTHING OMG WHY IS THIS SO HARD' of players. And they can cheese it with ranged builds, if that's the only way they can beat it.

[slarden]

I meant tanks in the WoW tank-and-spank sense. Are you defining "balanced party" in the holy triumvirate sense of tank, DPS and heals? Or in the traditional D&D sense of melee, caster, healer, rogue?

One interesting thing about "tanks" in ddo as there aren't many true tanks left. Most people calling themselves tanks are spec'd for max dps in vanguard because max tanking hasn't been necessary.

So while people are theorizing everyone will go ranged, I kind of wonder if people will be willing to give up some dps to get more tanky. Or give up some dps to be a better healer. This was the norm pre-u14, but people don't want to give up dps for anything now.

So while I am not a fan of one-shotting, it will be interesting if specialization becomes valued again due to the one-shotting.

I heard "tanks" could take 2 hits, but was that a "vanguard max dps tank" or a max defensive tank? I am guessing max dps vanguard.

I would think cc will be very valued since you if you take damage you die so it's all about damage prevention where in recent history the game has been all about max damage mitigation.

[Andoris]

Wow, you think those things cause lag? Just... wow.

Yep.. we do 12 man EE DoJ all the time with no lag. However, all it takes is one person to turn on their aura and the instance grinds to a halt.

[Faltout]

One interesting thing about "tanks" in ddo as there aren't many true tanks left. Most people calling themselves tanks are spec'd for max dps in vanguard because max tanking hasn't been necessary.

So while people are theorizing everyone will go ranged, I kind of wonder if people will be willing to give up some dps to get more tanky. Or give up some dps to be a better healer. This was the norm pre-u14, but people don't want to give up dps for anything now.

So while I am not a fan of one-shotting, it will be interesting if specialization becomes valued again due to the one-shotting.

I heard "tanks" could take 2 hits, but was that a "vanguard max dps tank" or a max defensive tank? I am guessing max dps vanguard.

I would think cc will be very valued since you if you take damage you die so it's all about damage prevention where in recent history the game has been all about max damage mitigation.

You have it all wrong
Since you are gonna get one-shot anyway, defences don't matter anymore. So, if I sacrificed even the tiny bit of DPS for more defences, I would roll back the defences and get more DPS. The best build to bring in those raids is a 300 HP ranged character or a 300 HP melee character that brought a maxed out CC caster (let's give him 200 HP) to baby sit him. Healers should bring quickened raises and everyone should get raise scrolls. Absolutely no other forms of healing required. Not even CSW pots.

If it's all about not getting hit, we all strive for defences such as displacement/incorporeal/dodge. Best thing a melee can do is drop that heavy armor and tower shield and put some dodge items on and maximize the DPS so he can do the most while alive.

P.S. When talking about tanks, you forget how broken tank mechanics are. For example devils will actually attack anyone other than the person they have aggro. Do too much damage to a devil and it's guaranteed he will teleport away. Intimidate does not always work. Some monsters are too stubborn to get intimidated. Even if you see the intimidate sign above their heads and do 70% of the damage while the cleric did none, they will still pound the poor cleric for several seconds. It's funny how initial aggro works. I am playing my paladin and charge in a room activating monsters only to have them run past me to attack the fvs 1 room back (they cannot even see him).
So, what is funny is that you don't seem to realize that the healer you imagine for the tank will not be alive to heal the tank (unless you imply that healers are the best tanks). And all that without considering that the healer is raising people that drop left and right dead (like in HoX) and does not have time to babysit a tank because the raid might fail.

[Qezuzu]

I *LIKE* the idea we may need dedicated tanks, dedicated healers, dedicated CC experts... it will encourage others to make a full party. Except maybe for the .001% crowd of 'OMG I MUST BE THE BEST AT EVERYTHING OMG WHY IS THIS SO HARD' of players. And they can cheese it with ranged builds, if that's the only way they can beat it.

Dedicated healers? LOL. Go play content before you talk about it, except for Harry fight healing is useless (and in Harry fight, Consecrated Ground+your own heals is quite enough).

One interesting thing about "tanks" in ddo as there aren't many true tanks left. Most people calling themselves tanks are spec'd for max dps in vanguard because max tanking hasn't been necessary.

So while people are theorizing everyone will go ranged, I kind of wonder if people will be willing to give up some dps to get more tanky. Or give up some dps to be a better healer. This was the norm pre-u14, but people don't want to give up dps for anything now.

So while I am not a fan of one-shotting, it will be interesting if specialization becomes valued again due to the one-shotting.

I heard "tanks" could take 2 hits, but was that a "vanguard max dps tank" or a max defensive tank? I am guessing max dps vanguard.

I would think cc will be very valued since you if you take damage you die so it's all about damage prevention where in recent history the game has been all about max damage mitigation.

Tanks only work if you can get aggro. Max-AC max-HP low-DPS tanks used to work due to how Intimidate functioned, but it no longer allows you to hold aggro unless you can out-threat the DPS. And considering we're talking about handling trash mobs I'm much better off just making a CC Wizard if I'm going to put that much effort into a toon. And who the hell would make a toon just to tank trash? Tanking was super important pre-MOTU cause you were controlling raid bosses, who couldn't be handled any other way. I know I wouldn't make a tank just to aggro a bunch of Mass Hold'd mobs (but what I would do is make a divine if healer is an actual useful role now, which it isn't).

This was the norm pre-u14, but people don't want to give up dps for anything now.

Well, especially now. Like, I could get another +40 PRR by taking Improved Combat Expertise and Scion of the Etheral Plane, losing Power Attack and +20 Melee Power, but I'm still in one-shot range on so why even bother??

[eris2323]

Well, hate to burst your bubble, but it looks like it's going live that way, although with a few minor tweaks to spell resistance.

So, Enjoy!

[Jasparion]

For the very low cost of 5 AS each, I will, quite willingly, call the WHA-MULANCE for all you crybabies.

It's evident dev ability to modify the mobs AI is limited. So, since the choices seem to be A) make it easier so the crybabies stop whining, or B) keep it hard so people can have a challenge and modify it in the future....

I'm gonna keep my vote on B.

And you all make me sad.

I *LIKE* the idea we may need dedicated tanks, dedicated healers, dedicated CC experts... it will encourage others to make a full party. Except maybe for the .001% crowd of 'OMG I MUST BE THE BEST AT EVERYTHING OMG WHY IS THIS SO HARD' of players. And they can cheese it with ranged builds, if that's the only way they can beat it.

There are dedicated healers left in the game? And how many are going to bring along a healer who burns through SP pots and scrolls healing and rezzing melee types who are getting smashed and dying constantly, when the easy button is to cheese up and roll a ranged?

Plenty of thought has gone in to designing things, but it seems that zero thought has gone in to considering how the player base will react...