Is 2000+ damage a swing from trash mobs WAI?

[Qhualor]

I'd rather most healing in general be reduced. This includes stuff like Lay on Hands, ranger CCW, Bladeforged CoS, etc. Honestly a flat halving of most income healing would be a good start, at least something to test.

Very few builds are actually without innate self-healing, and most of the builds that don't (non-toaster casters, Rogue, fighter) don't need nerfs anyway.

I would rather not see things like LOHs, Ranger CCW and Bladeforged CoS be reduced because it takes investment to get decent healing from those sources. what I would rather see is Cocoon, Renewal and Consecration be moved up another tier or two.

[slarden]

Really? Build neutral?

Exact same chance of a CC Wiz or AA or Thrower or Mech being one-shot as a melee type?

It would be interesting to see responses from people which ended with:

... and I play a <insert class and style> as my main.

I wonder how many complaining about one-shotting have some sort of melee, and how many saying we should keep it have some sort of ranged.

That said, its easy enough for people to just lie. Which Im sure would happen.

I don't hide my identify here on the forums and I play a wide variety of builds. I have no need to lie and my builds can be easily verified. Here are my main 6 which I will be playing. The others are more or less on the bench and used to experiment with builds. 4 of these builds are documented right in the class forums with 100% total transparency. I don't use exploit builds- not one. I don't rely on any favorable bugs.

Randowl: 20 Warlock DC/DPS
Randslar: Melee Swashbuckler
Randek: Currently 15 Ranger 5 Paladin Melee, but hoping to go back to 20 Druid Caster if cc is needed again
Randomall: 20 Rogue assassin
Randorel: 15 Wizard 3 Paladin 2 Favored soul Shiradi caster
Randiccar: 18 Rogue 2 Artificer Mech (my least accomplished of the 6 - needs 2 arti to have enough sp for KTA and cocoon). Was recently 20 Barbarian and also recently 15 paladin / 5 ranger.

Breakdown: 2 casters, 3 melee, 1 ranged. Some with high PRR/MRR, some with low mostly driven by class features more than anything else.

Now do you still think I am lobbying against melees despite playing 3 melees and very recently 4. I only switched 1 to ranged since I didn't have any ranged characters and I wanted variety. Or are you going to imply I would lie again despite the fact that I have total transparency for my builds?

[slarden]

I play divines only for heroic pastlifes. I was never good at playing this classes so I avoid them. For playing arcane with self heal I have my undead wizard, which now is retired. My main toon was ALWAYS melee, almost always fleshie. And again I never type anything like that 'nerf self-healing for other people so I can roll through the content on EE with my self-healing character'. It's truly your problem, so please don't put this in my 'mouths', because this insulting me.

If I say nerf self healing, it means ALL FORMS OF SELF healing. If people have to play divines again, thats good, because todays almost no one play them.. and when they start play them , they may start healing others..

No more posts from me today, Good night.

You are asking for the easy button so I think that makes it your problem.

Your solution is to insult other people that disagree with you and demand their self-healing be reduced so Turbine can reduce the incoming damage to you and you can run through content faster. Again your problem.

I am sure you have a high PRR and are used to taking very little incoming damage and want to keep it that way. Accurate? So if self-healing is nerfed it impacts high prr very little and low prr builds alot more.

[Qezuzu]

You are asking for the easy button so I think that makes it your problem.

Your solution is to insult other people that disagree with you and demand their self-healing be reduced so Turbine can reduce the incoming damage to you and you can run through content faster. Again your problem.

I am sure you have a high PRR and are used to taking very little incoming damage and want to keep it that way. Accurate? So if self-healing is nerfed it impacts high prr very little and low prr builds alot more.

Hey can you stop accusing people of wanting easy buttons, zerg-friendly content or whatever buzzwords, when that's ostensibly not true?

The raids are badly designed, nearly from an objective stand-point. People are trying to come up with solutions which may or may not be better. Said solutions may or may not have oversights, we can't be sure, we can really only theorycraft, and hope that the devs pay attention.

Accusing people of ulterior motives is irritating, and not helpful.

[Zasral]

See when my main dies, I ask myself why did that happen.

1. Was I paying attention? Yes

2. Was there a lag spike? No

3. I look at combat log. Was hit for 1400 points of slash damage. ***?

4. Am I naked? No my gear is all there.

5. Are all my stats correct? Yes best defenses my current build can have. I am only short 9prr from itr past lives.

6. Would that 9prr have made a difference? No

7. So why did I die?

Turbine cheated!

Lol I know a lot of posters don't feel the same way. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, and that is ok, but that is how I feel. Nothing anyone has posted in this thread makes me feel any different. If this is really the game they are going to make, then I will go to a game where the devs don't cheat. Just like I would stop playing with a dm who kills me by dropping a meteor on my head. Maybe some people like that sort of dm, but I do not.

[Jasparion]

I don't hide my identify here on the forums and I play a wide variety of builds. I have no need to lie and my builds can be easily verified. Here are my main 6 which I will be playing. The others are more or less on the bench and used to experiment with builds. 4 of these builds are documented right in the class forums with 100% total transparency. I don't use exploit builds- not one. I don't rely on any favorable bugs.

Randowl: 20 Warlock DC/DPS
Randslar: Melee Swashbuckler
Randek: Currently 15 Ranger 5 Paladin Melee, but hoping to go back to 20 Druid Caster if cc is needed again
Randomall: 20 Rogue assassin
Randorel: 15 Wizard 3 Paladin 2 Favored soul Shiradi caster
Randiccar: 18 Rogue 2 Artificer Mech (my least accomplished of the 6 - needs 2 arti to have enough sp for KTA and cocoon). Was recently 20 Barbarian and also recently 15 paladin / 5 ranger.

Breakdown: 2 casters, 3 melee, 1 ranged. Some with high PRR/MRR, some with low mostly driven by class features more than anything else.

Now do you still think I am lobbying against melees despite playing 3 melees and very recently 4. I only switched 1 to ranged since I didn't have any ranged characters and I wanted variety. Or are you going to imply I would lie again despite the fact that I have total transparency for my builds?

So with your 3 melee builds how do you envisage they take part in an LE raid? How do you avoid being one-shotted yet still be an active participant?

Hope the Wizard can CC everything?
Hope the Ranged tag everything and kite and you run around behind the mobs swinging madly at them and hoping lag doesnt leave you missing every time?

Or is it something else? Because ranged does just as much damage, and has a massively easier time avoiding damage... so Im sure you can run stuff with friends who are happy to bring you along, but why would a PUG?

[eris2323]

So with your 3 melee builds how do you envisage they take part in an LE raid? How do you avoid being one-shotted yet still be an active participant?

Hope the Wizard can CC everything?
Hope the Ranged tag everything and kite and you run around behind the mobs swinging madly at them and hoping lag doesnt leave you missing every time?

Or is it something else? Because ranged does just as much damage, and has a massively easier time avoiding damage... so Im sure you can run stuff with friends who are happy to bring you along, but why would a PUG?

Oh the noes, perhaps raid leaders will be asking for 'expert cc' as well as 'good healers' - what. ever. shall. we. do.

Better than sleeping through LEGENDARY ELITE shroud.

****, how easy do you people want this game to be?

[Jasparion]

Oh the noes, perhaps raid leaders will be asking for 'expert cc' as well as 'good healers' - what. ever. shall. we. do.

Better than sleeping through LEGENDARY ELITE shroud.

****, how easy do you people want this game to be?

You know full well they wont do that. They will be asking for "ranged builds only". They will only take CC/healers/melee if they cant get a full group going.

When have LFMs ever had altruism as a defining quality?

I dont want the game to be easy. I want it to be hard. But I dont want it hard in a way that is impossible for some builds while still easy for others.

Why do you want easy buttons for ranged but melees to effectively be useless unless the mobs have been CCd?

[eris2323]

You know full well they wont do that. They will be asking for "ranged builds only". They will only take CC/healers/melee if they cant get a full group going.

When have LFMs ever had altruism as a defining quality?

I dont want the game to be easy. I want it to be hard. But I dont want it hard in a way that is impossible for some builds while still easy for others.

Why do you want easy buttons for ranged but melees to effectively be useless unless the mobs have been CCd?

No, I don't know full well that anyone will ask for ranged builds only. I'd think it was 'cheese' tactics like others have mentioned (except they think things like CC are cheese tactics, while I think meta-gaming into 12 ranged builds is cheese tactics.

If I saw that, I'd think to myself, ****, that's lame... what a bad leader.

And I'd also hope that Turbine would immediately make the raid MORE difficult for ranged characters trying to 'cheese' them out....

[slarden]

So with your 3 melee builds how do you envisage they take part in an LE raid? How do you avoid being one-shotted yet still be an active participant?

Hope the Wizard can CC everything?
Hope the Ranged tag everything and kite and you run around behind the mobs swinging madly at them and hoping lag doesnt leave you missing every time?

Or is it something else? Because ranged does just as much damage, and has a massively easier time avoiding damage... so Im sure you can run stuff with friends who are happy to bring you along, but why would a PUG?

That is the fun of it isn't it? The raid is brutally hard but I predict if the devs leave it exactly as is groups will be mastering it and soon after complaining it's too easy - and that is if no changes are made.

There are 12 people in the raid. If needed I can turn my tempest into a druid quickly with an LR +20. He has all the past lifes and gear - is only a tempest because nobody needs cc. Would be nice to play something other than a high prr high dps melee to be useful.

[slarden]

Hey can you stop accusing people of wanting easy buttons, zerg-friendly content or whatever buzzwords, when that's ostensibly not true?

The raids are badly designed, nearly from an objective stand-point. People are trying to come up with solutions which may or may not be better. Said solutions may or may not have oversights, we can't be sure, we can really only theorycraft, and hope that the devs pay attention.

Accusing people of ulterior motives is irritating, and not helpful.

People are asking for the quest to be easier - it is what it is. Spin it and replace the word easier with "designed better" if you wish - it's the same thing.

I don't care if the devs change it or not. If people ask for the raid to be harder - they should not complain when it is and call it bad design.

I think dialogue is fine, but I don't think the devs should nerf self-healing because a few people think the raid is too hard and are bargaining with nerfs to other people as a way to make the raid easier to complete for themselves.

The part in bold is interesting. The raid was too easy a few days ago and the main thing that changed is the devs increased CR and various stats to respond to requests for higher difficulty. They gave people exactly what they wanted, but now that the raid is hard to complete it's "bad design". That is not objective by definition - it is your opinion. The raid wasn't redesigned - difficulty was increased as people requested - it just a threshhold that made those same people unhappy.

[Jasparion]

No, I don't know full well that anyone will ask for ranged builds only. I'd think it was 'cheese' tactics like others have mentioned (except they think things like CC are cheese tactics, while I think meta-gaming into 12 ranged builds is cheese tactics.

If I saw that, I'd think to myself, ****, that's lame... what a bad leader.

And I'd also hope that Turbine would immediately make the raid MORE difficult for ranged characters trying to 'cheese' them out....

Cheese tactics saw people use dozens of raid timers to chain run raids on EN to get the 20th tables in less time than it took to run a couple of EEs. The playerbase will always take the cheese option where possible. That is why the onus is on the developers to ensure that they minimise this.

I completely agree that the developers should balance things. But to date have we really seen anything beyond "more HP, more immunities, higher saves" in terms of mob design?

That is the fun of it isn't it? The raid is brutally hard but I predict if the devs leave it exactly as is groups will be mastering it and soon after complaining it's too easy - and that is if no changes are made.

There are 12 people in the raid. If needed I can turn my tempest into a druid quickly with an LR +20. He has all the past lifes and gear - is only a tempest because nobody needs cc. Would be nice to play something other than a high prr high dps melee to be useful.

The problem is when it gets mastered by only a handful of builds.

Shouldnt the goal be that every class with any reasonably sensible build can bring things to the table?

When mobs hit for 3k+, what do Melee bring to the table? When mobs have saves and SR so high that only triple life Wiz/FvS with ultimate gear already can CC them, what do they bring?

Yet the AA/Thrower/Mech sits and range and pings away and even with average gear can do a LOT of damage.

The raid was too easy a few days ago and the main thing that changed is the devs increased CR and various stats to respond to requests for higher difficulty. They gave people exactly what they wanted, but now that the raid is hard to complete it's "bad design". That is not objective by definition - it is your opinion. The raid wasn't redesigned - difficulty was increased as people requested - it just a threshhold that made those same people unhappy.

Difficulty was increased to the point where melee classes are effectively sidelined. Do you think that was the goal?

We have returned to needing a pocket healer for melee for the sole purpose of "hjeal me".

[eris2323]

Cheese tactics saw people use dozens of raid timers to chain run raids on EN to get the 20th tables in less time than it took to run a couple of EEs. The playerbase will always take the cheese option where possible. That is why the onus is on the developers to ensure that they minimise this.

I completely agree that the developers should balance things. But to date have we really seen anything beyond "more HP, more immunities, higher saves" in terms of mob design?

Ah, well, as far as I know, the duplication problems with the massive amounts of raid bypass timers has been fixed.

When I said 'cheese' I didn't mean flat out right CHEATING like you seem to advocate.

If people are PAYING for those raid timers, and putting money into Turbines pockets, that's a little different.

But we all know raid timers were duped out the wazoo, and that is the very definition of CHEATING.

[Powerhungry]

How does one deal with the 'cheese' tactic of kiting everything? The ability is already in the game - djinn in VoN6 have the right idea. When "X" mob/boss is hit, use the (djinn in von 6) or (Diablo 3 champion/elite ability called 'vortex') and pull said player next to it, apply binding chains and hit it for 3k damage, like they do to melee builds. This same tactic/ability can be applied to any ranged damage offender (like casters). This change will make the raid harder without having to hit players for 3k damage. It's a smarter way to make it hard than just 'give it x100hp and hit x10 harder' that the devs are currently using.

[Qezuzu]

People are asking for the quest to be easier - it is what it is. Spin it and replace the word easier with "designed better" if you wish - it's the same thing.

I and many other people believe ramping up damage to the point of one-shots is bad design. We wish for damage to be lowered, and in return for difficulty to be raised in some other fashion. It could be with higher-speed mobs, mobs that use certain abilities on us, mobs with debuff auras, etc. Or, if player characters are fundamentally too difficult to challenge, that should be addressed in some way with the release of Legendary content, so that we don't repeat this dance again: whether it be reducing our healing, reducing our movement speed under certain conditions, modifying the PRR formula, disabling/modifying certain epic abilities like what was done with mortal fear, or other options.

Is this stance clear enough for you?

The part in bold is interesting. The raid was too easy a few days ago and the main thing that changed is the devs increased CR and various stats to respond to requests for higher difficulty. They gave people exactly what they wanted, but now that the raid is hard to complete it's "bad design". That is not objective by definition - it is your opinion. The raid wasn't redesigned - difficulty was increased as people requested - it just a threshhold that made those same people unhappy.

For the record, I never experienced this raid in its first iteration, so I can't comment on the mob damage then. Obviously, I didn't ask for it to be raised, either.

I'm sure there's some middle ground where the mobs' damage allows them to be very threatening and a necessity to CC, but not to a point where they one-shot any non-paladin/barb/fighter who dare get in melee range (oh, and do please note, the red names in part 2 can also one shot you, they can't be CC'd).

Of course, if there's no middle ground between "unsatisfyingly easy" and "one-shot carnival, melees go home," well in my opinion that would just mean they botched it, wouldn't it? They had quite a long time to work on one of the most anticipated pieces of content and they dropped the ball.

We need a good framework for well-designed, difficult content for legendary. This isn't it.

[Ayseifn]

Thinking about it some more the damage is interesting in that certain melees(barb?/paladin/fighter) can spec for more PRR and HP, yes it will hurt DPS but you can build someone to take a hit unlike the usual max DPS builds. We did the same thing when old school epics launched, rebuilding toons that were fine for heroic raids but went splat in epics.

Dodge builds that I'm familiar with can burst over 100 dodge chance with uncanny(I swear it bypasses dodge cap but it's been a while), meld into darkness, primal travel and the newish Mabar hat all boost dodge by 50-100, so if you can get a standing 50+ that makes you immune to melee for a short time. Not perfect but workable, with free CC from things like Balanced Attacks they should be able to kill trash.

So yeah some melees might be able to reinvent themselves to be workable in the new Legendary content, high HP toons will need ninja heals from someone else if they want to stay in the fight as their self heals will be mostly insufficient and dodgy/squishy types will spend more time waiting on cooldowns or someone else to take agro before engaging but it's mathematically doable on a melee.

I usually take the path of least resistance though, so if my preferred play style is so far behind I will probably just go with an xbow rogue or the like. 100% uptime on DPS, no need to wait for others to prep mobs and no need to gimp my DPS adding defence since there's no way to build an xbow rogue that can take a melee hit.

[Vanhooger]

I and many other people believe ramping up damage to the point of one-shots is bad design. We wish for damage to be lowered, and in return for difficulty to be raised in some other fashion. It could be with higher-speed mobs, mobs that use certain abilities on us, mobs with debuff auras, etc. Or, if player characters are fundamentally too difficult to challenge, that should be addressed in some way with the release of Legendary content, so that we don't repeat this dance again: whether it be reducing our healing, reducing our movement speed under certain conditions, modifying the PRR formula, disabling/modifying certain epic abilities like what was done with mortal fear, or other options.

Is this stance clear enough for you?



For the record, I never experienced this raid in its first iteration, so I can't comment on the mob damage then. Obviously, I didn't ask for it to be raised, either.

I'm sure there's some middle ground where the mobs' damage allows them to be very threatening and a necessity to CC, but not to a point where they one-shot any non-paladin/barb/fighter who dare get in melee range (oh, and do please note, the red names in part 2 can also one shot you, they can't be CC'd).

Of course, if there's no middle ground between "unsatisfyingly easy" and "one-shot carnival, melees go home," well in my opinion that would just mean they botched it, wouldn't it? They had quite a long time to work on one of the most anticipated pieces of content and they dropped the ball.

We need a good framework for well-designed, difficult content for legendary. This isn't it.

This. As well it was explained so many time why one shot is bad design in the last few days.

[Vanhooger]

Thinking about it some more the damage is interesting in that certain melees(barb?/paladin/fighter) can spec for more PRR and HP, yes it will hurt DPS but you can build someone to take a hit unlike the usual max DPS builds. We did the same thing when old school epics launched, rebuilding toons that were fine for heroic raids but went splat in epics.

Dodge builds that I'm familiar with can burst over 100 dodge chance with uncanny(I swear it bypasses dodge cap but it's been a while), meld into darkness, primal travel and the newish Mabar hat all boost dodge by 50-100, so if you can get a standing 50+ that makes you immune to melee for a short time. Not perfect but workable, with free CC from things like Balanced Attacks they should be able to kill trash.

So yeah some melees might be able to reinvent themselves to be workable in the new Legendary content, high HP toons will need ninja heals from someone else if they want to stay in the fight as their self heals will be mostly insufficient and dodgy/squishy types will spend more time waiting on cooldowns or someone else to take agro before engaging but it's mathematically doable on a melee.

I usually take the path of least resistance though, so if my preferred play style is so far behind I will probably just go with an xbow rogue or the like. 100% uptime on DPS, no need to wait for others to prep mobs and no need to gimp my DPS adding defence since there's no way to build an xbow rogue that can take a melee hit.

While this is true, I think most people will take the easiest way, tr and go ranged. Done. Welcome back to 2013.

[slarden]

I and many other people believe ramping up damage to the point of one-shots is bad design. We wish for damage to be lowered, and in return for difficulty to be raised in some other fashion. It could be with higher-speed mobs, mobs that use certain abilities on us, mobs with debuff auras, etc. Or, if player characters are fundamentally too difficult to challenge, that should be addressed in some way with the release of Legendary content, so that we don't repeat this dance again: whether it be reducing our healing, reducing our movement speed under certain conditions, modifying the PRR formula, disabling/modifying certain epic abilities like what was done with mortal fear, or other options.

Is this stance clear enough for you?



For the record, I never experienced this raid in its first iteration, so I can't comment on the mob damage then. Obviously, I didn't ask for it to be raised, either.

I'm sure there's some middle ground where the mobs' damage allows them to be very threatening and a necessity to CC, but not to a point where they one-shot any non-paladin/barb/fighter who dare get in melee range (oh, and do please note, the red names in part 2 can also one shot you, they can't be CC'd).

Of course, if there's no middle ground between "unsatisfyingly easy" and "one-shot carnival, melees go home," well in my opinion that would just mean they botched it, wouldn't it? They had quite a long time to work on one of the most anticipated pieces of content and they dropped the ball.

We need a good framework for well-designed, difficult content for legendary. This isn't it.

I think the raid not only promotes teamwork and tactics, it's absolutely mandatory to have any chance to complete.

As I've said before I am not a fan of one-shotting, but I am ok with it for the highest level LE raid in the game.

It's up to the devs at this point. I think it would be an interesting experiment to leave it how it is to see how people adapt. It seems difficult to challenge a group of high prr / high dps fotm and exploit builds any other way. I suspect it would really be exciting for people that value teamwork and tactics (which you call cheese) over fotm and exploit builds (which others consider cheese).

The devs can always dial down difficulty later, if they try to dial it up after people are complaining it's too easy - it will only create more discontent. They should set the tone that LE raids are meant to be an extreme challenge and it gives them the chance to keep the difficulty extremely high going forward.

If they cave now and change it, my fear is they will be hesitant to amp up difficulty in the future.

If they decide this isn't the right kind of difficulty, they can always adjust it in a future patch or raid. The reality is I doubt they have much time to make big changes before they release so it's either amp damage down which will result in people with high prr/dps fotm and exploit builds crushing it and complaining it is too easy. Or they leave it and have the same people complaining it's too hard.

We've had enough people complaining the game is too easy. I would like to hear people complain it's too hard for a bit. We can use a break from the usual rhetoric.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think the raid not only promotes teamwork and tactics, it's absolutely mandatory to have any chance to complete.

As I've said before I am not a fan of one-shotting, but I am ok with it for the highest level LE raid in the game.

It's up to the devs at this point. I think it would be an interesting experiment to leave it how it is to see how people adapt. It seems difficult to challenge a group of high prr / high dps fotm and exploit builds any other way. I suspect it would really be exciting for people that value teamwork and tactics (which you call cheese) over fotm and exploit builds (which others consider cheese).

The devs can always dial down difficulty later, if they try to dial it up after people are complaining it's too easy - it will only create more discontent. They should set the tone that LE raids are meant to be an extreme challenge and it gives them the chance to keep the difficulty extremely high going forward.

If they cave now and change it, my fear is they will be hesitant to amp up difficulty in the future.

If they decide this isn't the right kind of difficulty, they can always adjust it in a future patch or raid. The reality is I doubt they have much time to make big changes before they release so it's either amp damage down which will result in people with high prr/dps fotm and exploit builds crushing it and complaining it is too easy. Or they leave it and have the same people complaining it's too hard.

We've had enough people complaining the game is too easy. I would like to hear people complain it's too hard for a bit. We can use a break from the usual rhetoric.