Is 2000+ damage a swing from trash mobs WAI?

[nokowi]

I want these raids and quests to be challenging. But for all build types - pushing a large part of the players into playing ranged builds so they can kite and just not get hit, that's not a good way for the game to go IMO. This large damage also eliminates the need/use for healing, which again I think is a bad choice.

I'd love for tanks and healers to be useful. CC as well.

What I don't want is parties of ranged people completing the content with few problems while melees get stomped.

All I'm saying is that the challenge should be about equal. Melee, ranged, casters, whatever - all should have mobs/abilities designed to counter them.

I love my mechanic builds. I do. But sometimes I want to play melee also. There should be room for both in the new content.

I agree with this completely. This requires more build changes than content changes.

[Starla70]

The party I was with has been running elite for ages, one has about 50 or so past lives. It was not we did not know, it was the degree it all changed. It just seems to be overlooked that not all players like the way it changed.

Back to the topic, it seems rather sad the best we can hope for is 1 or 2 shotting for this content. Would it not be more real challenge to have to quality content instead of mobs having more hit points and hit that hard?

[Nascoe]

Lol. Sometimes I ask myself, why I can't play like CR7?

You can run EE, but before you do that you just need to learn how.

I remember I wasn't able to do EE years ago, then day by day I started challenging myself and see how far I could go and learn from mistake made and find the right tactics/build choice/ gear / pl.

If you're not willing to do so, you shouldn't be able to do EE.

This work on RL too. Ask yourself why some people does have success and some not?

Really, success is more about being born in the right place and about luck than having to do with effort. But yes, putting in the effort to learn from previous mistakes certainly can help unlock what you have available to you.

[Vanhooger]

Really, success is more about being born in the right place and about luck than having to do with effort. But yes, putting in the effort to learn from previous mistakes certainly can help unlock what you have available to you.

Sometimes, not always. I know people that made a fortune coming from nothing. Just hard work and keep trying.

[nokowi]

Sorry, but that is just not fair Nokowi. YEah, sure a casual gamer will not go as far or fast to adjust the lack of gear or their build. And they might be far less worried about dying or not being fast or efficient. But coming somewhere to complain, be it the forums, or in game chat or whereever is in no way tied in to either being a casual or a power gamer at all.

I know far more casual gamers who just ask people they know to have better game knowledge for help. Either in game in their guild, or on the forums. The Casual thing is not about not being interested in doing something different. More about not worrying about being effective or about spending less time and effort being as effective.

Now, lets stop from derailing the discussion. This is not about who is what kind of gamer, or even whether such a distinction can even be made. And it also should not be about who is right or who is wrong. We should instead be discussing whether what turbine showed us so far on Lammannia has a chance of posing challenge at a high level.

Taking in account the limited ressources Turbine has available at this time in the games cycle we probably will have to settle for a high risk of 1-2 shotting being as best as we can get here. Not great, but probably better than being able to complete on Elite without too much effort.

My point is this:
If your not worrying about being effective, why should elite be designed around you?
There is nothing wrong with being a casual player, however you want to define it. Use a definition that pleases you.

"Taking in account the limited ressources Turbine has available at this time in the games cycle we probably will have to settle for a high risk of 1-2 shotting being as best as we can get here. Not great, but probably better than being able to complete on Elite without too much effort."

Yet another player saying SOME challenge is better than no challenge.

[nokowi]

Back to the topic, it seems rather sad the best we can hope for is 1 or 2 shotting for this content. Would it not be more real challenge to have to quality content instead of mobs having more hit points and hit that hard?

And yet, not a single word of support for the class balance needed to make this happen...

[Starla70]

The last balance the Dev's tried worked so well, let's try take 2? From what I have read that is going to do little. There is real need to balance again however, it seems that the Dev's idea of balance and the players are different, add the different play styles of players, what would be a good balance to anything is a debate waiting to happen.

At this point the whole game needs a balance pass. From the players to the mobs to the quality of content. All of the plays I have played with since being on the council want the lag fixed, the known bugs dealt with, and the overall game play to be of better quality, new puzzles, etc. Instead we seem to get much lower quality quest chains that look really great. Kudos to the department that is working on background stuff, some of the stuff put out in the last year or so is amazing graphics.

However looking good and being of real quality are different things. I remember when vale was new. The quests were a step up from many of those before it. I don't know why the new does last anymore, but it seems in 2 or 3 weeks it is gone for most players.

The last great quest that most people still talk about was Haunted Halls. It had something for every play style. That type quest is what people are expecting.

[Qezuzu]

I find this amusing more than anything else. You basically are seeing what it's like to be in someone else's shoes, but instead of following your own advice and adjusting to the quest instead of asking for an easy button - you ask for an easy button.

It's like you didn't read anything I wrote.

Yes, the content should be hard, but it should be hard and well-designed. It should be designed in a way where you need multiple roles, where you need tactics and abilities from multiple classes, where different mobs pose different challenges (some can one-shot you sure, but perhaps some should instead debuff you, or CC you, or some heal other mobs, etc. but instead they all just OHKO you.)

All they did was increase mob damage. It's all they know when making a quest more difficult. It's lazy, it's cheap, it's boring. And for certain parties, it will not even be difficult.

I would never quit a game because it's too hard... but I would quit a game if it was poorly designed, and honestly if you think all trash being one-shot is good design, well, I don't know what to say.

[slarden]

It's like you didn't read anything I wrote.

Yes, the content should be hard, but it should be hard and well-designed. It should be designed in a way where you need multiple roles, where you need tactics and abilities from multiple classes, where different mobs pose different challenges (some can one-shot you sure, but perhaps some should instead debuff you, or CC you, or some heal other mobs, etc. but instead they all just OHKO you.)

All they did was increase mob damage. It's all they know when making a quest more difficult. It's lazy, it's cheap, it's boring. And for certain parties, it will not even be difficult.

I would never quit a game because it's too hard... but I would quit a game if it was poorly designed, and honestly if you think all trash being one-shot is good design, well, I don't know what to say.

I already stated I am not a fan of one-shotting, but I also don't get on the forums demanding the game be harder - and then when they make it crazy-hard demand it be made easier for me.

You can always run it on EH.

[somenewnoob]

If it's so difficult YOU can't complete it, the difficulty is fine.
If it's so difficult I can't complete it, it's too hard.

I just wonder how many people saying "too hard" right now have at some point said "just run a lower difficulty" in the past?

[Holymunchkin]

If it's so difficult YOU can't complete it, the difficulty is fine.
If it's so difficult I can't complete it, it's too hard.

I just wonder how many people saying "too hard" right now have at some point said "just run a lower difficulty" in the past?

Amazing how many people can't parse "hard" and "poor design".

I've already completed "hard" or "poor design" and posted endlessly back at people who don't bother reading that this is a design request. The raids are currently too easy.

[somenewnoob]

Amazing how many people can't parse "hard" and "poor design".

I've already completed "hard" or "poor design" and posted endlessly back at people who don't bother reading that this is a design request. The raids are currently too easy.

So what quests are good design to you? And why?

[nokowi]

The last balance the Dev's tried worked so well, let's try take 2? From what I have read that is going to do little. There is real need to balance again however, it seems that the Dev's idea of balance and the players are different, add the different play styles of players, what would be a good balance to anything is a debate waiting to happen.

At this point the whole game needs a balance pass. From the players to the mobs to the quality of content. All of the plays I have played with since being on the council want the lag fixed, the known bugs dealt with, and the overall game play to be of better quality, new puzzles, etc. Instead we seem to get much lower quality quest chains that look really great. Kudos to the department that is working on background stuff, some of the stuff put out in the last year or so is amazing graphics.

However looking good and being of real quality are different things. I remember when vale was new. The quests were a step up from many of those before it. I don't know why the new does last anymore, but it seems in 2 or 3 weeks it is gone for most players.

The last great quest that most people still talk about was Haunted Halls. It had something for every play style. That type quest is what people are expecting.

Good ideas.

What I would like to see is a Top Charisma Save build succeed 15/20 times. With some feats or twists, this can be boosted to 19/20, with a 1 always failing. (This means sacrificing other things (twist/feat) to get near no-fail.)

Deathblock/ward helps vs Fort failures
Evasion helps vs Reflex failures
Spell Absorption helps vs Will failures

Why do we need no-fail on a 1?

At the same time, I would like a maximized poor saving throw to succeed 8/20 times. With +6 twist and +2 feat, this could get to the 80% success range.


Now mobs can have abilities that sometimes affect you. Damage can be dropped dramatically now that mob abilities matter.

Top save builds must sacrifice feats/twists, so players now choose between DPS and survivability.
Low save builds must sacrifice feats/twists, so players now choose between DPS and survivability.

Challenge can return without huge damage spikes.
Players make competitive build choices that matter.
5-6 mobs can replace the 20 mobs needed right now. (presumably less lag)

[Seljuck]

Interesting that someone 2 days ago posted about how easy it was to 4 man on Elite.

Do we not get to comment unless we also 4 maned it on elite?

Have you 4 manned it on elite and found it to be trivially easy?

If not; do you and I get to comment?

Sorry just feeling out parameters/degrees by which everyone's allowed to participate in the discussion.

There was 4 ?amania rounds. In 1st raids was unavailable. In 2nd round was accessible but trivial. In 3rd Round was accessible, little harder then in 2nd round but still trivial. In last 4th round raids are changed in different direction. In 4th round raids trash hit for 1-2k no matter what tactics you use or what your defenses are.

They did warn us. There were release notes telling us that Necro IV EE was going to be considered "Legendary" and made extra hard. It was in the release notes.

What's wrong with dropping to EH? I ran Necro IV most of the time on EN or EH when I was gear hunting. It was still fun.

I also ran it on EE recently... It was a PUG, and at first we didn't work as a team, and we almost wiped. Then we started moving slowly, only aggroing a few mobs at a time, and I never died again. I was playing an evasion melee with 100 PRR. I have decent gear, but nothing great. I don't have any raid gear from the last few raids. There's nothing wrong with EE Necro IV if you move slow and play carefully.

Why is changing your tactics not an option?

Leave necro4 and toee alone. No one ask here to change it or even talk about it. We talk about legendary elite ONLY and your necro4 ee experience have nothing to do with current version of legendary raids.

You can run EE. Who is stopping you?

Because you are a casual gamer, the top level of difficulty should not be designed around you.

CASUAL GAMER:

I get hit for 1500 damage on EE and I go to the forums to complain.
I refuse to adjust my play to my surroundings.


POWER GAMER

I get hit for 1500 damage, notice it is a critical. I look at my fortification. How can I increase it? I build in higher fortification and check to see if I still take criticals. If I am still taking criticals, I go to the forums (or Wiki) and try to find out what fortification is needed. I might ask someone how to get my fortification even higher.

I adjust my build/play to overcome challenges.


POWER GAMERS learn over time and become better players.
CASUAL GAMERS play a long time and don't improve much.

I'm not power gamer. Have done 21 heroic pl, got both heroic and epic completionisthe. Plenty of good gear and great build (yes broken one) and I still want dev to change that crazy design.

I already stated I am not a fan of one-shotting, but I also don't get on the forums demanding the game be harder - and then when they make it crazy-hard demand it be made easier for me.

You can always run it on EH.

Why you force me to run eh on my heavy dps, well prepared build with lot of defences ?? I can ran and complete new raids But I do not consider them to be fun and challenging. I consider them to be annoying. I want to play game that is challenging and fun.

Here are my suggestions how game can be fixed. All of them should be done long time ago. And again all of them should be done at once.

This are mine thoughts about game challenge and how it can be fixed. My ideas contain lot of nerfs so it will probably be very unpopular post/tread, but remember guys, sometimes you have to nerf something to make something different better or viable. There's no ideal solutions for every aspect of game and there are times you have to choose lesser evil. You just have to remember that, there are lot of shades of grey, not only black and white.

I'll focus on epic/legendary content only, so please leave heroic content for different thred.

Currently game challenge is in white & black colours. There are quests where you have challenge due to high dmg output and high hp and quests where everything is trivial (basically lower level epic content).

Proposed changes:

• Nerf self healings capability - so it will be helpfull in hard situation, but will not be one click - full heal. Full heal should be reserved for divine classes ONLY. Spells like Reconstruct shouldnt be race spell-like abilities, and should be reserved for Arcanes/Artificers.
• Reduce healing amp - make it harder to acquire and reduce its effectiveness. Additionally add this effects to different gear, not only neck, gloves and bracers. Let different values of this effect stacks.
• Reduce opponents damage output by at least half - only bosses at highest difficulty should be able to one shot you, and only with speciall attack that can be avoided by player skills.
• Make cap for PRR/MRR - make prr cap that can be extended only by selected classes/builds (f.ex. fighter tank).
• FIX BROKEN BUILDS - fix wolf builds (suggestion - let that form use TWF line only), trees builds (add cleave animation), shiradi casters/throwers (maybe change effects from 7% chance at every atack to 100% chance on crit hit only ? or even vorpal.)
• Rebuild caster DC/CL/SP - you should have chance to land spell even or 1st lifer when you use debuff. Specialization should reduce necessity of using debuffs. Necro spells should always have chance to fail, no 100% effectivity.
• EXTREMELY IMPORTANT Give opponents special attacks/abilities, maybe some from ED? let them use tactics, special abbilities with no save (not deadly, just grounding), give casters better variety of spells, debuffs and cc.
• Reduce power creep - lessen melee/ranged power and ed/enhancement abilities power and scale with m/r power.
• Reduce effectivnes of kitting - more grounding effects for kitters/faster opponents.
• Create more inexcusable content - more deadly traps that are hard to avoid, that slow zerging through quest. Also quests should not be expected, to finish in 5 min nor 1 hour. more sophisticated puzzle/activities that acquire special approach. (Abbot asteroids comes in mind, subterrain VoD unlock puzzle etc.)

All this suggestions should be done together, choosing one without others make game unfair and more unbalanced.

[Basura_Grande]

So what quests are good design to you? And why?

This is WHEN THEY WERE RELEASED. Power creep has ruined most of them.

- Shroud - hell, all the devil raids include Epic Colonoscope
- LOB/MA
- EE Motu when it was new including CiTW
- EE GH - with the exception of screwing DC casters it was perfect difficulty
- EE Shadowfail - EE WGU was awesome when it first came out
- EE Mark of Death - fantastic raid.

A small list off the top of my head.


All good for the same reason - challenging but not stupid. Not tuned so EVERY trash mob in the raid can one-shot every player, no insane mechanics like an 8000 point explosion if your DPS is too slow, nothing stupid like the mirror room in Terminal Delirum, basically noting that reminds me of a 10 year old DM throwing a tantrum.

[KLJJ]

If it took 10 AA furyshotting 1M DPS just to get past the first mob and half of them die anyway, it would still be easymode compared to old school MMOs. Even for DDO it's not as if everyone was doing ToD on elite the first day. If it's neigh impossible to do the hardest mode of a raid for 6 months after release that would be perfect. This game has the advantage of HAVING modes below hardest for the casuals.

[slarden]

I'm not power gamer. Have done 21 heroic pl, got both heroic and epic completionisthe. Plenty of good gear and great build (yes broken one) and I still want dev to change that crazy design.

Why you force me to run eh on my heavy dps, well prepared build with lot of defences ?? I can ran and complete new raids But I do not consider them to be fun and challenging. I consider them to be annoying. I want to play game that is challenging and fun.

• FIX BROKEN BUILDS - fix wolf builds (suggestion - let that form use TWF line only), trees builds (add cleave animation), shiradi casters/throwers (maybe change effects from 7% chance at every atack to 100% chance on crit hit only ? or even vorpal.)

I agree the first thing the devs should do is fix broken builds - I don't necessarily see shiradi broken except builds that abuse caster level bugs with MM/CM. That has nothing to do with shiradi though.

I would rather see the raid remain the way it is than to nerf self healing and go back to the days of the old epics where ony a few builds could run. People went fvs because it had good self healing and dps - not to help out party members so I dislike suggestions about getting rid of cocoon without applying it equally to others. How about people can only use healing on others and not themselves - and the only way to self heal for ALL was potions. Then I would be ok with it, but I am not ok with giving half the classes awesome self healing and others nothing - it will take us back to where were previously - lack of build diversity.

Otherwise nerfing one form of self healing merely changes the pecking order - it doesn't solve anything.

I am ok if in some quests they have zones where healing effectiveness is reduces - like the inevitable room in Pop - that is a nice design for a specific part of a quest that adds challenge. Same with the quells.

Otherwise I see people complain about getting one-shot by champions because they run low PRR builds. If one-shotting is a problem the devs also need to get rid of fort bypass on champions which creates one-shotting for just low PRR builds.

If people want to argue one-shotting is bad - be consistent. Don't argue to get rid of the one-shotting that just hurts your build while arguing to keep one-shotting that hurts other builds.

[Thrudh]

I want to play game that is challenging and fun.

What quests/raids do you currently run that you consider challenging and fun?

Proposed changes:

• Nerf self healings capability - so it will be helpfull in hard situation, but will not be one click - full heal. Full heal should be reserved for divine classes ONLY. Spells like Reconstruct shouldnt be race spell-like abilities, and should be reserved for Arcanes/Artificers.
• Reduce healing amp - make it harder to acquire and reduce its effectiveness. Additionally add this effects to different gear, not only neck, gloves and bracers. Let different values of this effect stacks.
• Reduce opponents damage output by at least half - only bosses at highest difficulty should be able to one shot you, and only with speciall attack that can be avoided by player skills.
• Make cap for PRR/MRR - make prr cap that can be extended only by selected classes/builds (f.ex. fighter tank).
• FIX BROKEN BUILDS - fix wolf builds (suggestion - let that form use TWF line only), trees builds (add cleave animation), shiradi casters/throwers (maybe change effects from 7% chance at every atack to 100% chance on crit hit only ? or even vorpal.)
• Rebuild caster DC/CL/SP - you should have chance to land spell even or 1st lifer when you use debuff. Specialization should reduce necessity of using debuffs. Necro spells should always have chance to fail, no 100% effectivity.
• EXTREMELY IMPORTANT Give opponents special attacks/abilities, maybe some from ED? let them use tactics, special abbilities with no save (not deadly, just grounding), give casters better variety of spells, debuffs and cc.
• Reduce power creep - lessen melee/ranged power and ed/enhancement abilities power and scale with m/r power.
• Reduce effectivnes of kitting - more grounding effects for kitters/faster opponents.
• Create more inexcusable content - more deadly traps that are hard to avoid, that slow zerging through quest. Also quests should not be expected, to finish in 5 min nor 1 hour. more sophisticated puzzle/activities that acquire special approach. (Abbot asteroids comes in mind, subterrain VoD unlock puzzle etc.)

All this suggestions should be done together, choosing one without others make game unfair and more unbalanced.

These are good ideas.

[Basura_Grande]

What quests/raids do you currently run that you consider challenging and fun?

At this current moment in time there is nothing both challenging AND fun for a quest of 6/12 A-list players on good toons. Quite frankly we are too powerful.

One-shotting doesn't change this.

[Qezuzu]

You can always run it on EH.

Nah, I'm gonna run it on EE, with tactics and whatever. It's simply annoying that one-shot trash is the sole source of challenge on this difficulty, and that if a mob makes their saves against CC, the result is lel someone died, because casting Resurrection is so difficult.