Is 2000+ damage a swing from trash mobs WAI?

[Basura_Grande]

This question is only for the devs, want to know if the damage we're seeing in LE raids is broken.

[Hobgoblin]

This question is only for the devs, want to know if the damage we're seeing in LE raids is broken.

not a dev - but the answer i foresee is:

"sev, varg, cordo are looking at forum posts. We cant make these guys happy! They said they want challenge we gave them challenge! "

[Lemdog]

This question is only for the devs, want to know if the damage we're seeing in LE raids is broken.

I think the damage is fine. They should one shot ya in a level 34 raid. I'm more concerned about the guide not working.

[Andoris]

This question is only for the devs, want to know if the damage we're seeing in LE raids is broken.

Don't forget 2600 point disintegrates from the beholders in LE hound

[Andoris]

I think the damage is fine. They should one shot ya in a level 34 raid. I'm more concerned about the guide not working.

So, your saying we should all be playing monkchers/thrower/repeater builds in LE

Gotcha --

[maddong]

Awesome. Challenge by forcing everyone to play con builds.

[Andoris]

Awesome. Challenge by forcing everyone to play con builds.

Con builds will not do it.. Ranged and lots of CC. Incoming damage needs to be cut by about 50-66%

[Lemdog]

So, your saying we should all be playing monkchers/thrower/repeater builds in LE

Gotcha --

Where did you get THAT b.s ? Truly i think the mobs doing this much damage forces players to play smarter, and that's something this game needs more of, imho. Not sure 'bout you tho.

[Andoris]

Where did you get THAT b.s ? Truly i think the mobs doing this much damage forces players to play smarter, and that's something this game needs more of, imho. Not sure 'bout you tho.

Serious question.. have you ran the new Raids on EE since the last update?

Yes.. using cheese tactics and lots of CC it is doable.. but I highly doubt that this is WAI

I am all for challenge, balanced parties, and smart play.. but getting one-shotted by trash is not fun (when the boss is only doing 500-600 points of damage.. which is reasonable)

[eris2323]

Where did you get THAT b.s ? Truly i think the mobs doing this much damage forces players to play smarter, and that's something this game needs more of, imho. Not sure 'bout you tho.

Totally agree on this point

[Urjak]

Serious question.. have you ran the new Raids on EE since the last update?

Yes.. using cheese tactics and lots of CC it is doable.. but I highly doubt that this is WAI

I am all for challenge, balanced parties, and smart play.. but getting one-shotted by trash is not fun (when the boss is only doing 500-600 points of damage.. which is reasonable)

You just answered your own question within the same post - yes I bet it is WAI if these raids are only doable using tactics and lots of CC ... after all, that is what we keep demanding from the devs

Glad to hear they listened

[Andoris]

You just answered your own question within the same post - yes I bet it is WAI if these raids are only doable using tactics and lots of CC ... after all, that is what we keep demanding from the devs

Glad to hear they listened

I think you missed the word "Cheese" when quoting me.

So, serious question. Have you ran the new raids on EE this weekend?

[Steelstar]

cheese tactics

Inquiring minds want to know: Where is the line between "Tactics are useless in this content" and "cheese tactics"?

Damage in the raids is intentionally up compared to the previous build, where things were fairly trivial. Exact numbers are still being adjusted. Just telling us "trash mobs are doing 2000+ damage" doesn't really help us look into it - Which monsters, what kind of attacks?

That said, you all have plenty of creativity and tools at your disposal to mitigate damage. The damage you're taking (after all of your considerable stacking defenses) should not be trivial. Tactics and CC can and should be used.

[Dandonk]

That said, you all have plenty of creativity and tools at your disposal to mitigate damage. The damage you're taking (after all of your considerable stacking defenses) should not be trivial. Tactics and CC can and should be used.

That's all well and good. I just hope we'll not return to the bad old days where only ranged was considered viable.

Melee characters should be challenge - but so should ranged. Kiting stuff around for fifteen minutes is not my idea of heroic fantasy - though it may be the best choice, when mobs hit that hard.

[Wizza]

Inquiring minds want to know: Where is the line between "Tactics are useless in this content" and "cheese tactics"?

Damage in the raids is intentionally up compared to the previous build, where things were fairly trivial. Exact numbers are still being adjusted. Just telling us "trash mobs are doing 2000+ damage" doesn't really help us look into it - Which monsters, what kind of attacks?

That said, you all have plenty of creativity and tools at your disposal to mitigate damage. The damage you're taking (after all of your considerable stacking defenses) should not be trivial. Tactics and CC can and should be used.

Which mobs is a hilarious question.

EVERY kind of monster is doing 1.2k+ damage NON crit on a toon with 70-80 PRR.

My caster has 900 hp with 9 Primal Past lifes and 72 PRR, I get 1-shot by everything on EE. With Yugo Pots and Lasting Elixirs I can get to 1k HP barely. Not exaggerating as well, I was literally being 1-shotted in EE Shroud.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nt-challenging

That's a video of the insane damage. By cheese tactics I'm sure he meant being a ranged Character/Warlock. But even those will be hit once in a while, you can't expect people to never get hit, specially in this update where mobs can teleport right on top of you.

CC? There are plenty of threads telling you how casters are still awful compared to everything else and DC being awful. I heard Earthquake works great but that's literally one class having one spell. Everything else is required to pass a Spell Resistance check, which is incredibly high in these new quests and casters going full r***** with Spell Penetration have to severely gimp themselves in order to just being CC-bots. The new spell Burst of Glacial Wrath could be an alternative but its DC formula means that it is going to be so low that every mob will save.

[Andoris]

Inquiring minds want to know: Where is the line between "Tactics are useless in this content" and "cheese tactics"?

Damage in the raids is intentionally up compared to the previous build, where things were fairly trivial. Exact numbers are still being adjusted. Just telling us "trash mobs are doing 2000+ damage" doesn't really help us look into it - Which monsters, what kind of attacks?

That said, you all have plenty of creativity and tools at your disposal to mitigate damage. The damage you're taking (after all of your considerable stacking defenses) should not be trivial. Tactics and CC can and should be used.

Beholders in EE HoX, 2,600 point Disintegrate with ~50 MRR (base damage in the ~3400 point range); Reavers in Hox consistent 1600-1700 point melee hits with ~100 PRR (putting base damage no PRR around the 3000-3400 range). Xy'zzy seemed to be doing about the right amount of damage @ 500-700 a hit (same PRR numbers). One of the guys I was running with was getting hit fot ~1700 on his ranger (~150 PRR).. not sure which mob but I'll find out later today and update you.

I am all in support of teamwork, good tactics, and CC (heck I am a big supporter of DC casting); however, currently healing and defenses really don't matter -- if one-hit = death, the actual damage from the mobs does not matter (other than seeing 2k+ neg hp numbers which is humorous); and defenses are not worth worrying about (well I guess a 250prr tank could take 1 hit before dying -- that's something at least). The only real defense is not to get hit at all. Twitch CC (you can't get hit either) helps with that, but is not perfect. Use of ranged toons, exploiting the geometry, kiting (which no-one enjoys) are required in that situation. PRR/MRR (outside of extreme cases) are useless, healing is useless -- not getting hit is the only real defense.


Steel, I am all for challenge (and honestly if I have to pick between this and update 3.. I'll take this); however, the mobs could have their damage toned down by 50-66% and still require careful teamwork, CC, tactics, top-end playstyle and builds. But at the level of damage the mobs are producing now the pendulum swung too far. If you are going to leave it like this, you could add a extra '0' to the end of the incoming damage numbers and it really would not make a difference. Heck, it would likely add to the fun, as now when we get one-shoted we would see a negative number in the tens of thousands


I am okay with you 2-shotting me (assuming decent defenses and ~1k+ hp) as then defense (other than not getting hit) actually matters. But when its one-shot = dead, the only thing that matters is run speed; HP, PRR, MRR become meaningless (except for extreme cases).

[Andoris]

CC? There are plenty of threads telling you how casters are still awful compared to everything else and DC being awful. I heard Earthquake works great but that's literally one class having one spell. Everything else is required to pass a Spell Resistance check, which is incredibly high in these new quests and casters going full r***** with Spell Penetration have to severely gimp themselves in order to just being CC-bots. The new spell Burst of Glacial Wrath could be an alternative but its DC formula means that it is going to be so low that every mob will save.

To be fair, CC was landing "okay" on my fully maxed out caster (still needed to use debuffs though) -- however, anyone with out all the PL's, Epic and Heroic Completionist, Gear, and the optimal build, and lots of resources should not even bother.

Steel, since we have your attention -- it looks like Abishai Destroyer buff from cookies no longer is working, is that WAI? Not a big deal either way, but they were nice to use if you had a few death pen's and you needed the DC boost.

[Wizza]

Beholders in EE HoX, 2,600 point Disintegrate with ~50 MRR (base damage in the ~3400 point range)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think MRR reduces damage from Untyped spells.

To be fair, CC was landing "okay" on my fully maxed out caster (still needed to use debuffs though) -- however, anyone with out all the PL's, Gear, and the optimal build, and lots of resources should not even bother.

Can you give some numbers? And what spells, your Spell Pen? What do you mean with "okay" ? Did you have the new gear on?

[Steelstar]

Beholders in EE HoX, 2,600 point Disintegrate with ~50 MRR (base damage in the ~3400 point range); Reavers in Hox consistent 1600-1700 point melee hits with ~100 PRR (putting base damage no PRR around the 3000-3400 range). Xy'zzy seemed to be doing about the right amount of damage @ 500-700 a hit (same PRR numbers).

One of the guys I was running with was getting hit fot ~1700 on his ranger (~150 PRR).. not sure which mob but I'll find out later today and update you.

I am all in support of teamwork, good tactics, and CC (heck I am a big supporter of DC casting); however, currently healing and defenses really don't matter -- if one-hit = death, the actual damage from the mobs does not matter (other than seeing 2k+ neg hp numbers which is humorous); and defenses are not worth worrying about (well I guess a 250prr tank could take 1 hit before dying -- that's something at least). The only real defense is not to get hit at all.

Twitch CC (you can't get hit either) helps with that, but is not perfect. Use of ranged toons, exploiting the geometry, kiting (which no-one enjoys) are required in that situation. PRR/MRR (outside of extreme cases) are useless, healing is useless -- not getting hit is the only real defense.

Steel, I am all for challenge (and honestly if I have to pick between this and update 3.. I'll take this); however, the mobs could have their damage toned down by 50-66% and still require careful teamwork, CC, tactics, top-end playstyle and builds.

But at the level of damage the mobs are producing now the pendulum swung too far. If you are going to leave it like this, you could add a extra '0' to the end of the incoming damage numbers and it really would not make a difference. Heck, it would likely add to the fun, as now when we get one-shoted we would see a negative number in the tens of thousands

I am okay with you 2-shotting me (assuming decent defenses and ~1k+ hp) as then defense (other than not getting hit) actually matters. But when its one-shot = dead, the only thing that matters is run speed; HP, PRR, MRR become meaningless (except for extreme cases).

A few questions to better help me understand the context of this run:

• How close was this group to your Live builds?
• How many people in your party?
• Were you all level 30?
• Did you use any of the new gear from this update?
• Did you bring a tank?
• Were you consistently seeing these numbers in Hound, or only toward the end?
  
  • It's worth noting that Hound very intentionally gets harder the longer you take, and should cause a full party wipe beyond a certain point.

[PsychoBlonde]

Beholders in EE HoX, 2,600 point Disintegrate with ~50 MRR

Disintegrate is force damage. MRR does not affect force damage.