Bard spell singer: utterly insufficient buff

[BigErkyKid]

Hi,

I tested the DPS of the new spell singers. It is clearly insufficient to merit a mention as a DPS toon. I was playing with all the metamagics on and over 500 sonic spell power (pre metas). The SLAs hit for ~1000 in a non crit. The DoT SLA hits for 100-300 (crit included). It is pitiful damage when I compare it to what I am achieving with other builds.

[skorpeon]

Hi,

I tested the DPS of the new spell singers. It is clearly insufficient to merit a mention as a DPS toon. I was playing with all the metamagics on and over 500 sonic spell power (pre metas). The SLAs hit for ~1000 in a non crit. The DoT SLA hits for 100-300 (crit included). It is pitiful damage when I compare it to what I am achieving with other builds.

and here I was hoping for a chance to play a spell caster Bard, just for a change.

sad face

[Heathir]

Hi,

I tested the DPS of the new spell singers. It is clearly insufficient to merit a mention as a DPS toon. I was playing with all the metamagics on and over 500 sonic spell power (pre metas). The SLAs hit for ~1000 in a non crit. The DoT SLA hits for 100-300 (crit included). It is pitiful damage when I compare it to what I am achieving with other builds.

Sounds like bard is meant to be a utility class that can dps, or heal as needed so it will do decent dps, but not competitive. Historically is games pure dps classes should outshine hybrids.

Bard should equal best cc in the game with average dps or heals if speced for them.

I don't believe bards were every meant to be top tier dps.

That category "should" belong to rogue, sorc, monk, tunnel vision wizard, and tank gimped fighter imho

[Elfishski]

Sounds like bard is meant to be a utility class that can dps, or heal as needed so it will do decent dps, but not competitive. Historically is games pure dps classes should outshine hybrids.

Bard should equal best cc in the game with average dps or heals if speced for them.

I don't believe bards were every meant to be top tier dps.

That category "should" belong to rogue, sorc, monk, tunnel vision wizard, and tank gimped fighter imho

Yeah, Bard spell singers have outstanding crowd control, some unique and much appreciated buffs for other party members (spell point regen!) and DPS that in itself is more than adequate it just looks really weak compared to the kill-everything-in-a-moment DPS output of the more recently updated classes. They can also heal pretty well, not that anyone cares.

That's not a bad place for an enhancement tree to be in.

[Rawrargh]

This isn't spellsinger specific, it applies to all casters.

[FestusHood]

You were bound to be disappointed if you thought you could build a bard to play like a sorc. You should have tried making a dps caster bard before they were updated. They have more dps than they used to, but if you want to play a nuker, spellsinger isn't the choice.

[BigErkyKid]

You were bound to be disappointed if you thought you could build a bard to play like a sorc. You should have tried making a dps caster bard before they were updated. They have more dps than they used to, but if you want to play a nuker, spellsinger isn't the choice.

I have actually played several spell singers to cap. I know how they play.

But the current buff is just a trap, people might think the dps is something competitive but it truly is not. The spell dps is very weak and you need to sacrifice a lot to get good nice useful cc going so never damage is weak too.

Then cc is not needed for the most part, so it leaves a cc based tree sort of hanging.

If the dps of the spells is going to be bad anyway then just give utility and better cc options to the bard. What is needed is spell penetration.

[IronClan]

people might think the dps is something competitive but it truly is not. The spell dps is very weak and you need to sacrifice a lot to get good nice useful cc

Why would they think that? An Air savant casting Chain Lightning (or Electric SLA's with the master of feats) does not do EE relevant damage either... why would a Bard also casting Heroic spells do relevant nuking damage?

As for CC, I think you're doing it wrong.

The Dev's -- probably gun shy after the melee balance pass mistakes -- are very hesitant to do the thing that's needed to make heroic nuking spells relevant in EE Legendary content... Raise the max casting levels of spells like DBFB and Chain Lightning etc. Or Greater Shout to be relevant to this thread.

[BigErkyKid]

Why would they think that? An Air savant casting Chain Lightning (or Electric SLA's with the master of feats) does not do EE relevant damage either... why would a Bard also casting Heroic spells do relevant nuking damage?

As for CC, I think you're doing it wrong.

The Dev's -- probably gun shy after the melee balance pass mistakes -- are very hesitant to do the thing that's needed to make heroic nuking spells relevant in EE Legendary content... Raise the max casting levels of spells like DBFB and Chain Lightning etc. Or Greater Shout to be relevant to this thread.

Because the bard doesn't really have any nuking spells, it is the SLAs + g shout.

If the SLAs don't fly they are down to one expensive spell. Spell singer nuking is all about the SLAs.

It dies or lives with them.

Regarding CC, I am not doing it wrong. It is the darn SR checks.

[Axeyu]

Turn every spec into DPS? okay.

[IronClan]

Because the bard doesn't really have any nuking spells, it is the SLAs + g shout.

If the SLAs don't fly they are down to one expensive spell. Spell singer nuking is all about the SLAs.

It dies or lives with them.

Regarding CC, I am not doing it wrong. It is the darn SR checks.

By the same token Air savant also doesn't have any nuking spells. None of that junk is effective or EE viable... let alone Legendary...

SR checks. So yeah.

Look I apologize for the needlessly antagonistic "you're doing it wrong". That said you have multiple excellent CHA based options for CC that do not have SR checks.

[slarden]

A bard caster can be very effective, but it is exceptionally difficult to play (like assassin) and requires solid gearing, past lifes etc. The main difference is that a rogue isn't as dependent on the environment to be effective while the caster bard is. High saves, high SR, etc. crush a casting bard.

A casting bard's ticket to high dps is through invoking helplessness state and getting bonus damage - otherwise they are significantly behind.

Once upon a time this was through EA with energy burst twisted in when nothing important had spell resistance, but currently that is probably through Draconic (electric) along with sense weakness twisted in due to high SR requirements.

A casting bard thrives only to the extent it can invoke helplessness and/or cc not only to help their own dps, but also the party dps and damage mitigation. Otherwise their dps is low and the value to the party is mainly just buffs which are "nice to haves" in today's environment.

A bard has great enhancement support for DC so they take only one enchantment focus feat and the rest spell resistance, but getting a good enough spell penetration is still a challenge. Bards also have the best cc diversity - sonic stuns, enchantment and fascinate. But stuns are fort based evocation spells and hold/dance are will based enchantment so getting them both strong along with high Spell pen is not feasible.

Sonic stuns on low fort save enemies
Enchantment on low will save enemies
Fascinate on mobs you want to keep at bay until the low will/fort save enemies are dealt with.

Overall I agree I would rather play a swashbuckler than a casting bard in the current environment.

[SealedInSong]

Great summary, Slarden.

I agree with OP that what DDO really needs and has always shot for, in spirit, is the ability to make a viable sonic caster from bards (or possibly air savants).

WHY?
We all play this game because we expect there to be adequate means to profit from our choices, and accept the costs.

CURRENTLY,
there is no way to really do this with a sonic caster, and to a lesser extent, some other challenged "elements" such as light that are systematically challenged by poor loot, feat, spell, enhancement, etc selection.

THUS,
rather than being given the ability to sacrifice ability in some areas for the chance to become adequate sonic casters, sonic is just relegated to a non-option. This isn't good for DDO.

ARGUMENTS AGAINST
sonic casting ability for bards include their other relative strengths of support, i.e. crowd control and healing.
However, if DDO were designed better (and I think we all have hopes that it can continue to be refined), a bard should be able to give up / not advance some of their ability X to advance ability Y.

It's not good for DDO to say, "since you're this [class / enhancement tree / destiny], you're going to be good at [insert] and can't customize this."

Contributing factors: the skill-based nature of perform and broken DCs, UMD and the general ease with which players can heal themselves and others in the current game environment, extremely inflated mob stats (HP, SR).
Of course, the above problems affect every player, not just bards.

CONCLUSION
The circumstances that allow people to create viable shuriken slingers, shield bashers, swashbuckling arcane marauders, werewolves, and such are exactly what make DDO worth playing.

We should be encouraging under-utilized builds for which there is already an infrastructure, such as sonic casters, dire bears, shadar kai chain whippers, light nukers, and unarmed combat.

It's good for DDO!

A bard caster can be very effective, but it is exceptionally difficult to play (like assassin) and requires solid gearing, past lifes etc. The main difference is that a rogue isn't as dependent on the environment to be effective while the caster bard is. High saves, high SR, etc. crush a casting bard.

A casting bard's ticket to high dps is through invoking helplessness state and getting bonus damage - otherwise they are significantly behind.

Once upon a time this was through EA with energy burst twisted in when nothing important had spell resistance, but currently that is probably through Draconic (electric) along with sense weakness twisted in due to high SR requirements.

A casting bard thrives only to the extent it can invoke helplessness and/or cc not only to help their own dps, but also the party dps and damage mitigation. Otherwise their dps is low and the value to the party is mainly just buffs which are "nice to haves" in today's environment.

A bard has great enhancement support for DC so they take only one enchantment focus feat and the rest spell resistance, but getting a good enough spell penetration is still a challenge. Bards also have the best cc diversity - sonic stuns, enchantment and fascinate. But stuns are fort based evocation spells and hold/dance are will based enchantment so getting them both strong along with high Spell pen is not feasible.

Sonic stuns on low fort save enemies
Enchantment on low will save enemies
Fascinate on mobs you want to keep at bay until the low will/fort save enemies are dealt with.

Overall I agree I would rather play a swashbuckler than a casting bard in the current environment.