Dwarf con based paladin15/warlock5 build viable?

[CThruTheEgo]

So I've been tossing around an idea in my head and just wanted to run it by the forums to see what you all think. I searched the forums and didn't see anything like this. If I missed it, I'd appreciate a link.

Basic concept:
~con based dwarf with throw your weight around
~twf or swf (probably twf for higher melee dps)
~15 paladin for holy sword for some decent melee dps
~5 warlock for tier 5 enlightened spirit

Enhancements:
~18 in dwarf for throw your weight around
~23 in sacred defender for 6 con and 20% hp from defensive stance
~39 in enlightened spirit for eldritch burst and spirit blast, shining through and brilliance (both of which are essentially healing based on your con score), displacement sla, and spiritual retribution (3d6 light damage on melee attacks and aura ticks, scales with spell power)

Feats:
~basic melee line: twf or swf x3, imp crit, power attack or precision, overwhelming crit
~empower and maximize for bursts
~possibly extend for displacement sla and divine favor

Destiny:
~warhammer in dreadnaught (crit profile gives it 35 relative hits)
~or heavy pick in divine crusader (crit profile gives it 37 relative hits)
I have a mornh on the character I'm considering for this build, so that makes me want to go with warhammers and dreadnaught. A khopesh paladin (which is not eligible for throw your weight around, but I just wanted to see how they compared) has 38 relative hits in dreadnaught and 39 in divine crusader, so melee dps wouldn't be too far behind.

Drawbacks:
~aura only ticks once every 5 seconds
~aura and bursts scale with warlock level, so may be relatively weak overall.

The build should have very high hp and heal amp, solid PRR and MRR, decent dodge, constant displacement, exceptional healing through a variety of sources, and respectable single target (twf with holy sword) and AoE dps (warlock bursts). With the lantern ring, chord of reprisals, and a red slot on each hand, I will be able to cover all the spell power I need (light, force, sonic, and positive). Overall the build should have solid defenses and at least respectable dps, so it seems decent in theory.

Enlightened spirit is the obvious tree for melee on a warlock but without any inherent crit boosts, warlock melee dps is lacking. Paladin seems like a good choice since holy sword costs no AP. I've already played a pure paladin knight of the chalice and found it extremely boring. It was incredibly OP but did nothing more than kill and not die. So I am considering this build as something to spice that up a bit. I also find the kotc tree a little lacking overall. A pure kotc with capstone does 7d6 light damage that scales with melee power. This build would get 3d6 light damage that scales with spell power. Given that you can get at least double the spell power that you can of melee power, these should balance each other out. With their lower damage due to only 5 warlock levels, the bursts may not be equivalent to cleaves, so AoE dps might be behind, but I'm honestly not sure.

I also considered 14 warlock/3 bard/3 fighter with swashbuckling, but that requires finesse weapons (lower base damage) as well as swf, and all options came out to fewer relative hits. So although the aura would tick for higher damage every 3 seconds instead of 5, and bursts would do more damage, melee dps would fall further behind and I'm not sure it's worth it.

So am I missing anything with this concept? Are the benefits of 5 warlock worth it? Or are they too weak overall? I'm open to other build suggestions as well. Thanks in advance.

[slarden]

It seems like a really nice concept for a tank build, but just comparing 5 ranger to 5 warlock it's a dps loss in high level EE content for sure since you can't really take advantage of divine grace for damage as a con build and ES lacks proper support for a melee. At the moment strength gear is a pain to slot so I can see why you are looking for an alt stat, but that will likely change in a few weeks.

I love the idea as an alternative tank build.

I also think a warlock splash would be good on a tanky fvs with the fvs shield of condemnation boosting all sources of alignment and light damage. The aura can help hold aggro.

The other issue will be warlock arcane spell failure if you use heavy armor. Dwarf has no racial AP to do reduce it like drow or some other races, so you are looking at an arcane spell failure of 20% in heavy armor.

[Holymunchkin]

was thinking of this myself last night, though a little different
it seems to me that this build will always be a sub-par tree equivalent. they basically do the same thing but have a different investment for dps.
but screw those builds......

For me thinking:
14 / 6,
a 4s aura rather than a 6s aura. (160 temp hp 1/3 more of the time)
Go THF and pull lots of mobs and use cleave, great cleave, DC cleave, momentum swing, lay waste. Aoe damage is great for getting agro, and the aura will help a ton too.
Cleave can't d-strike so its not a big deal to lose the other lvl 15 spell slot.
I really agree you don't lose much by not going pure pally. (Like 15 melee power?...)

With correct gearing a viable intimidate? I don't know.

For a twf build I would never not go without ranger due to DoD

NOTE: this thread should be moved to "custom character builds"

[CThruTheEgo]

It seems like a really nice concept for a tank build, but just comparing 5 ranger to 5 warlock it's a dps loss in high level EE content

Thanks for the feedback slarden. I considered the 15 paladin/5 ranger also, but it's not something I'm particularly interested in. I've played both a pure paladin and a pure tempest. Other than shoring up the weaknesses of each, I don't see anything different about the 15/5.

I also think a warlock splash would be good on a tanky fvs with the fvs shield of condemnation boosting all sources of alignment and light damage. The aura can help hold aggro.

That's an interesting option. There's some good synergy there.

The other issue will be warlock arcane spell failure if you use heavy armor. Dwarf has no racial AP to do reduce it like drow or some other races, so you are looking at an arcane spell failure of 20% in heavy armor.

Yeah I was planning on sticking with medium armor, taking the proficiency from enlightened spirit. I know arcane spell failure applies to eldritch blasts, does that include the aura also?

Imo,its not worth it at all..5 warlock lv give u good survivability from ES.. but ur aura is 5sec,which means the benefit from T4 temp health is not dat great.

Thanks for the feedback Holyavatar. That's my main concern is that the benefits are not significant enough to be worth it.

On the other hand,ur dps will be pretty low since u force to put 36+ points in ES

I agree the dps gains from the aura would be low, but I don't think melee dps would be too far behind. There really isn't that much dps in knight of the chalice. Spiritual retribution applies to melee attacks, so that would balance out the loss of light damage from kotc. Because you can get well over double the amount of spell power as you can melee power, I would think it would offer more overall. Other than that, it's basically 15 melee power and divine might that I'd lose out on.

For me thinking:
14 / 6,
a 4s aura rather than a 6s aura. (160 temp hp 1/3 more of the time)
Go THF and pull lots of mobs and use cleave, great cleave, DC cleave, momentum swing, lay waste. Aoe damage is great for getting agro, and the aura will help a ton too.
Cleave can't d-strike so its not a big deal to lose the other lvl 15 spell slot.

Thanks for the feedback Holymunchkin. That's a good point about the 14/6 and cleaving. Something to consider.

[BigErkyKid]

Funny, a guildie asked me about this build yesterday.

The key problems:

- Melee DPS loss from switching KOTC to ES.
- Aura hitting not frequently (5s cool down for mediocre damage?), burst hitting for low DPS (the native dice of the burst are low)

(maybe run some numbers before committing to it, how much do you expect those AoEs to hit for? Even in end game).

Will it be OK? Yeah sure, holy sword in itself makes anything good DPS. But what do you gain from it? If you want a tank paladin, go for KOTC and invest heavily in sacred defender.

The only gain I see from ES is the temporary HPs and the displacement. However, the temp HPs don't last much in EE, they are just the immortality card in heroics. The displacement can be achieved via clickies.

ES was supposed to be the melee tree of warlocks, but it is quite clearly that the synergy, as it stands, isn't there.

[slarden]

Yeah I was planning on sticking with medium armor, taking the proficiency from enlightened spirit. I know arcane spell failure applies to eldritch blasts, does that include the aura also?

I haven't tested it based on the description I am fairly certain it would.

The big benefits of 15 pal/ 5 ranger twf over pure paladin twf is dps and specifically aoe dps from dance with death. But the other tier 5s in tempest are really spectacular for twf also. I spend 40 points exactly in tempest.

Compared to 20 ranger you get great saves and specifically great reflex saves without going dex-based. You have a much better stunning blow option. You have superior PRR and MRR but the MRR isn't really needed with the no fail evasion.

I agree it plays the same way though and if you are looking for a different playstyle I can see why that isn't appealing. 15 Ranger / 3 paladin/ 2 fighter and 12 Ranger / 6 paladin/ 2 fighter twf also plays the same way and is also really good - it's again the same concept but evasion-based rather than HA based.

You may want to try playing ES-based warlock caster without the melee. Although it's a pure caster, it plays very much like a melee in many ways.

If you want to go 15 pal / 5 warlock, I would go charisma based (maybe pdk) and you can operate in either Divine Crusader or Exalted Angel with Energy Burst twisted in. Energy Burst will be way better than the 2 EA SLAs as will Divine Wrath. Now you truly have serious burst dps with better single target DPS from twf (in theory I would think it would be better single-target dps but with the burst dps not as good as a pure caster obviously - maybe 80% ish).

I would think cha-based with a bard (your split below for example) would actually be even better as the casting/melee hybrid (swf) you now can have a possible workable evard's with the DOJ bracers and 2 from an augment. You can swf with a buckler and get hp from defense stance with light armor.

[Jetrule]

I often find myself melee attacking or turtle up shield bashing between burst cool downs on my pure warlock E.S. I will occasionally refresh buffs and land a ruin or a drop sacred ground or tentacles or hurl through hell between cooldowns instead so its not a constant issue. Still I have wondered about investing 4 levels in bard with one of my +5 hearts.. In the end I think the advantage from the increased melee dps would be outweighed by the shield feats or bursting boosts I would have to drop for the 3 single weapon fighting feats. In the end for my tanky flavorish dragon marked halfling warlock, the ap and feats are just to tight to invest in a part time more effective melee option and a few fascinates.

I think you might run into the same problem with a Dwarven Palylock. Tight on feats and ap's. Now a warlock with pali splash seems alot cheaper and packing about the same punch. Divine grace +12 saves free shield use feat 25 prr 15 mrr extra lay on hands and +6 con. 17 warlock 3 pali may be worth giving up the lvl 18 and 20 enhancements in E.S. but the trade off will be close.

I did test on the heavy armor and tower shield as far as asf applying to standard or shape bursts. It dose not. All aura or focused or cone or chain blasts work without fail.

[CThruTheEgo]

You may want to try playing ES-based warlock caster without the melee. Although it's a pure caster, it plays very much like a melee in many ways.

I have a pure warlock now with the tainted scholar capstone and soul eater tier 5s and level 18 core. I've read your comments regarding the loss of dps when switching between casting and blasting, and your solution is to run with the aura instead. I have definitely noticed the loss of dps when switching, and when I'm in exalted angel, there's enough casting options to keep me busy between cooldowns that I don't even have time for blasting. I intend to try the aura on mine but I still have about half my destinies to level up first. Without running in exalted angel, there isn't much casting for me to do, so I think it's still advantageous for me to stick with cone shape while leveling destinies. But I can see your point that the aura while casting in exalted angel is superior and I'm anxious to try it.

If you want to go 15 pal / 5 warlock, I would go charisma based (maybe pdk) and you can operate in either Divine Crusader or Exalted Angel with Energy Burst twisted in. Energy Burst will be way better than the 2 EA SLAs as will Divine Wrath. Now you truly have serious burst dps with better single target DPS from twf (in theory I would think it would be better single-target dps but with the burst dps not as good as a pure caster obviously - maybe 80% ish).

I would think cha-based with a bard (your split below for example) would actually be even better as the casting/melee hybrid (swf) you now can have a possible workable evard's with the DOJ bracers and 2 from an augment. You can swf with a buckler and get hp from defense stance with light armor.

PDK does present some interesting options. I'll have to give that some thought.

[Holyavatar]

Imo,its not worth it at all..5 warlock lv give u good survivability from ES.. but ur aura is 5sec,which means the benefit from T4 temp health is not dat great. On the other hand,ur dps will be pretty low since u force to put 36+ points in ES,have to choose metamagic feats and magical gears...warlock's damage mainly from eb dice,for lv5 its only 3d6+2d4..dats means ur aura and SLA are totally useless in EE contents. Since dis build dont have high sp,crit damage and low aura rate..I would say 5 ranger would be much better choice if u like 15 pal builds..If u build dis for lv30 contents,its not great too..since the Arcane Warrior feat will fade all stacks out of 6 sec But like slarden said,its a great if u plan to play a tank roll.

[unbongwah]

I've already played a pure paladin knight of the chalice and found it extremely boring. It was incredibly OP but did nothing more than kill and not die.

Uhhh, in what ways is this build significantly different? You trade the melee DPS of lvl 18/20 KotC for the aura / light dmg of ES; you trade the AoE atks Exalted / Avenging Cleave for Eldritch Burst / Spirit Blast. You give up the melee DPS of STR+Div Might for the added HPs of CON-based + Shining Thru + Brilliance. Your survivability will go up further thanks to Displacement and however much PRR/MRR you can add from ES bonuses.

I don't know which is more powerful overall, pal 20 or pal 15 / war 5. In the end, however, you're still "just" a melee build who kills things and doesn't die.

I also think a warlock splash would be good on a tanky fvs with the fvs shield of condemnation boosting all sources of alignment and light damage.

I had considered a Steel Shrine variant which invests in Shield of Condemnation + Burden of Sin + Light Guard wielding Celestia or maybe Fellblade. Adding warlock would mean giving up Holy Sword, though, which would be a significant DPS loss.

[CThruTheEgo]

Now a warlock with pali splash seems alot cheaper and packing about the same punch. Divine grace +12 saves free shield use feat 25 prr 15 mrr extra lay on hands and +6 con. 17 warlock 3 pali may be worth giving up the lvl 18 and 20 enhancements in E.S. but the trade off will be close.

I did consider this also, but I don't find the survivability to be lacking on my pure warlock, so I don't see much need for the 3 pali splash.

I did test on the heavy armor and tower shield as far as asf applying to standard or shape bursts. It dose not. All aura or focused or cone or chain blasts work without fail.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Uhhh, in what ways is this build significantly different?

That's another concern I have - the playstyle won't be much different than a pure paladin. This build idea came mainly from my desire to do something a little different on a paladin, and I'm not really interested in the obvious choice of 15 paladin/5 ranger.

[01000010]

It works fine, you'll get some extra light damage per swing from es tier four, the con based temp heath from aura combines well with cocoon.

With so few lock lvls you may be better off with normal cleaves rather than bursts.

Works fine, comparable dps more survivability.

Edit: forgot, yeah, just replace max/emp with cleave/great cleave. And I suggest taking emp heal for cocoon .

[01000010]

When warlocks were new there was no asf, now there is, ofc with es you can negate asf with medium, or use greater twilight crafted plate. If you want to use tower shield skyvault has no asf.

As hard to kill as this build is(I've tried it), you can use one of the guardbreaker shields to really up survivability in ee lvl 30s.

[unbongwah]

When warlocks were new there was no asf, now there is, ofc with es you can negate asf with medium, or use greater twilight crafted plate.

Just to clarify: there was ASF with warlocks when they first came out; however it only applied to spells, not to Eldritch Blasts (and was supposed to). This has been bug-fixed so ASF affects EBs (to the consternation of all the `locks running in heavy armor, I'm sure); but AFAICT it still doesn't apply to SLAs or ES auras (based on quick testing on a Morninglord `lock alt).

I've got a CON based dwarf pure paladin S&B sitting at cap atm. Its unimpressive.
To hit is good, but damage is not as good as planned. Its a good candidate for a TR.

How did you build it? Do you have Harper / KtA as well?

[CThruTheEgo]

It works fine, you'll get some extra light damage per swing from es tier four, the con based temp heath from aura combines well with cocoon.

With so few lock lvls you may be better off with normal cleaves rather than bursts.

Works fine, comparable dps more survivability.

Edit: forgot, yeah, just replace max/emp with cleave/great cleave. And I suggest taking emp heal for cocoon .

I rolled up a test build yesterday using an iconic to see what kind of damage the aura/bursts put out with 5 warlock levels. Based on what I saw, at cap with more spell power, I'd expect the aura to tick for about 100-200 total damage and the bursts to hit for about 200-400 total damage. So yeah, cleaves would probably be just as good.

[HernandoCortez]

I've got a CON based dwarf pure paladin S&B sitting at cap atm. Its unimpressive.
To hit is good, but damage is not as good as planned. Its a good candidate for a TR.
I'm thinking of TWF dwarf CON based barbarian.

[Vulkoorex]

I've got a CON based dwarf pure paladin S&B sitting at cap atm. Its unimpressive.
To hit is good, but damage is not as good as planned. Its a good candidate for a TR.
I'm thinking of TWF dwarf CON based barbarian.

Doh. I was thinking of making one of my toons as a con based Dwarf S&B pure paladin tank. Can your toon maintain aggro with your DPS output?