Building a Better Monkcher

[FengXian]

Going WIS based means damage still comes from STR though; DEX is nice but it suits other builds better, I think TTS and paralizing arrows are worth going WIS here.

But DM vs KTA is an interesting case you make: DM costs 4 ap and KTA 8 ap. So I think it comes down to 2 levels of Ranger being worth those 4 ap over 2 levels of FvS. Level one spells save maybe Divine Favor are negligible, you lose 1 BAB for +3 will save and +1hit/damage on bows, and ofc the ranger feats are there too, although feats shouldnt really be an issue here.

As for Ki, while it would be possible to squeeze in contemplation on this build (can't afford it on current with 6 fighter levels), I was talking about Power Surge +2 Ki on hit effect, not the Mountain stance generation.

The Power Surge being worth it is kind of the whole question here actually^^ I guess you could compare 12 monk/6 fighter vs 12 fighter/6 monk. Say it's 15% doubleshot (plus all the nice monk utility) vs 2 extra feats and Power Surge (+4 damage from str, another +4 from DA/KTA and +8 hit/dc from wis, plus extra saves etc etc..)

My concern is also, would the fighter build be able to keep Power Surge and DM (not an issue with KTA) always up when relevant? I imagine it would if I was running LD, but I don't think I'd actually twist the extra action boosts if I was using another destiny.

Another issue could be skills, int for KTA and 6 extra monk levels would help a lot but going cha for DM would give extra saves via Helf paladin dilly and better UMD (then again hard to squeeze in all those skills).

I'm curious to test it out actually so as long as it's "reasonable" I'm fine, I just don't want to be missing something huge here; thanks!

edit: I'm talking about a build viable in endgame, heroics are not an issue at all^^

[unbongwah]

Going WIS based means damage still comes from STR though; DEX is nice but it suits other builds better, I think TTS and paralizing arrows are worth going WIS here.

Why? You still need base DEX 19/21 if going for IPS/Combat Archery (which you really should). So it's not like you can dump-stat DEX. You gain DEX to damage from Ninja core 2 or Imp Weap Finesse, both of which are only 6 APs and have other benefits. So you can go WIS/DEX/CON as your primary stats rather than STR/WIS/DEX/CON, making it a bit less MAD.

Also you only gain STR to bows if you have Bow Strength, so you won't get it free with FvS splash on monk / ftr, so that's an extra feat. And if you go ftr / monk / rgr instead for free Bow STR, you don't have Div Might and you're back to using KtA. Add in higher AC and Reflex saves from high DEX and I'm not seeing much if any upside here going with STR instead of DEX as your dmg stat.

As for Ki, while it would be possible to squeeze in contemplation on this build (can't afford it on current with 6 fighter levels), I was talking about Power Surge +2 Ki on hit effect, not the Mountain stance generation.

I think that applies only to melee, but I could be wrong. Recommend testing it on an Iconic before committing to it.

Power Surge (+4 damage from str, another +4 from DA/KTA and +8 hit/dc from wis, plus extra saves etc etc..)

You gain +8 to WIS which means +4 mod to-hit and DCs, not +8.

My concern is also, would the fighter build be able to keep Power Surge and DM (not an issue with KTA) always up when relevant?

Action boosts: 5 base + 1 shipbuff + 6 LD extra Action Boost + up to 3 from Kensei = 15 boosts. Since PS lasts 1 minute, if you need more than 15 minutes between rest shrines, you're probably doing something wrong.

[FengXian]

Why? You still need base DEX 19/21 if going for IPS/Combat Archery (which you really should). So it's not like you can dump-stat DEX. You gain DEX to damage from Ninja core 2 or Imp Weap Finesse, both of which are only 6 APs and have other benefits. So you can go WIS/DEX/CON as your primary stats rather than STR/WIS/DEX/CON, making it a bit less MAD.

Also you only gain STR to bows if you have Bow Strength, so you won't get it free with FvS splash on monk / ftr, so that's an extra feat. And if you go ftr / monk / rgr instead for free Bow STR, you don't have Div Might and you're back to using KtA. Add in higher AC and Reflex saves from high DEX and I'm not seeing much if any upside here going with STR instead of DEX as your dmg stat.

21 DEX usually just requires 16 starting which is affordable, but it's true the build would be less MAD and you'd make better use of AA capstone I guess. The problem is 55 locked ap for AA, 8 for KTA and 6 for DEX to damage only leaves 11 ap which is usually enough to splash a T3 core but we need a T4 for power surge (which can be achieved if we free 10 ap by going DM and str to damage. I actually just realised ap is basically locked for this build: 55 AA, 21 Power Surge, 4 DM.

I do believe the version you suggest is better since you can slot DEX as easily as STR in gear and while you lose some usefuleness from FotW STR and rage/Primal Scream, I was planning on staying in LD most of the time anyway. But it can only be achieved with the 10 Racial Completionist AP, of which I have a whopping zero and don't plan on acquiring anytime soon :/

I think that applies only to melee, but I could be wrong. Recommend testing it on an Iconic before committing to it.

Good point, I haven't found any confirmation on the forums but it's easily tested, I'll roll an iconic as you suggest. Not sure if it'd be a deal breaker but definitely worth finding out.
Also yes ofc +4 I have no idea why I typed +8 there^^

Edit: it seems to be melee only indeed, shame. Contemplation/ocean stance it is.

Action boosts: 5 base + 1 shipbuff + 6 LD extra Action Boost + up to 3 from Kensei = 15 boosts. Since PS lasts 1 minute, if you need more than 15 minutes between rest shrines, you're probably doing something wrong.

This is very interesting actually and this could be a deal breaker but it depends on quests really. What I take as reference is Legendary Shroud P1, although there could be better examples.
Luckily we can make use of dead times just like for MS cooldown so I'd say we have even more than 15 mins between shrines, it should be pretty safe to assume PS can always be up when needed as you said. I think same goes for DM since duration is double.

This also brings up the question FotW vs LD. I'd love to try a LD build (I understand it works better with DWS since it's constant damage rather than bursts), and while the nature of Power Surge works great with FotW burst damage I think 15 mins is actually enough to synergize with LD.

Also I just assume we'd have enough feats to fit in everything important: 7 base + 7 warrior + 3 monk for: BowSTR, RS, PS, IPS, PBS, MS, ZenA, TTS, Adept/M/GM, Toughness, Precision, IC, WF/WS/GWS or Spell Focus: enchantment or quick draw or something. Did I miss anything? DM of shadow could be an option if going elf but I lean more towards helf for paladin dilly +4 saves and at least some healing amp.

As then there are skills too...

This said what do you think? Can the ap-hungry AA afford power surge and more importantly -could- it be worth giving up the 12 monk/KTA version?

[unbongwah]

I finally got around to updating the OP with a pure monk 20 build which focuses on shuriken+Ninja for heroics. I've also got some monk 12 / rgr 6 build updates which I should post at some point.

[GatekeeperPL]

Isn't monkcher dead with update 36? AA not working for throwers.

Everything is dead except warlocks and maybe sorcs. Just look at r4+ teams they are build mainly with warlocks, other classes/builds in those teams are draged by warlocks/sorcs. Seriously casters do it faster and better everytime. Trust me, everytime Ive invited monkcher to my group or monkcher was invited by someone else in r1+ group they almost instantly began to complain on effectivnes of their builds compared to warlocks/sorcs. I belive any other build is just to a little bit of change in monotony in grinding lives with warlock build. With any melee or ranged build You have to cover hit chance, dr bypass, fort bypass, AC/DR if ur going to be close to enemy and of course dps itself. Come on, just come on, and for everyone that say its not troue ... come on.

[Quikster]

Looking for a build to knock out my last sunelf life. Would the 18/1/1 m/clr/r be ok to do that with? I realize I lose some SA damage from the original post. Mostly looking to try burst dps with para arrows for a quick 15-30. I have not played ranged since I’ve come back, and when I played before ranged was pretty gimp.

[Tilomere]

and when I played before ranged was pretty gimp.

Geared players do well in any combat style. Badly geared characters only do well on casters, trees, or rogue mechanics, because maximize/empower/intensify + range, tree form base damage, and sneak die + range masks their lack of gear.

[Quikster]

Geared players do well in any combat style. Badly geared characters only do well on casters, trees, or rogue mechanics, because maximize/empower/intensify + range, tree form base damage, and sneak die + range masks their lack of gear.

That’s nice.

No really, was gone for a long time, and ranged was gimp no matter what gear you had. We’re talking maybe 2010/11 sometime. So I really don’t know much about these ranged builds. Hence the question.

[unbongwah]

Would the 18/1/1 m/clr/r be ok to do that with?

It should be okay. But I'd probably trade ranger for fighter now; pick up Haste Boost instead of Bow Strength + Far Shot. I'd also skip going STR+CHA-based and stick with DEX-based, now that Ninja grants DEX to damage all ki weapons inc. bows.

So maybe something like this:

ML Monkcher
18/1/1 Monk/Cleric/Fighter
Lawful Good Morninglord


Level Order

1. Cleric          6. Monk           11. Monk           16. Fighter
2. Monk            7. Monk           12. Monk           17. Monk
3. Monk            8. Monk           13. Monk           18. Monk
4. Monk            9. Monk           14. Monk           19. Monk
5. Monk           10. Monk           15. Monk           20. Monk


Stats
               36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength         8       +2       4: DEX
Dexterity       18       +2       8: DEX
Constitution    14       +2      12: DEX
Intelligence    10       +2      16: DEX
Wisdom          16       +2      20: DEX
Charisma         8       +2      24: DEX
                                 28: DEX

Skills
          C  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  F  M  M  M  M
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Concent   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1     1  2  1  1  23
Spellcr   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Spot                     2     2     2     2     2           1     2  13
UMD          1  1  1  1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     11
Jump                                                   1               1
         ------------------------------------------------------------
          8  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  3  5  5  5  5


Feats

 1        : Point Blank Shot
 2 Monk   : Shuriken Expertise
 3        : Rapid Shot
 3 Monk   : Zen Archery
 6        : Precise Shot
 7 Monk   : Ten Thousand Stars
 9        : Manyshot
12        : Improved Critical: Ranged
15        : Precision
16 Fighter: Improved Precise Shot
18        : Spell Focus: Enchantment OR Improved Critical: Thrown
21 Epic   : Combat Archery
24 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Pierce Damage Reduction: Silver OR Epic Spell Power: Acid
27 Epic   : Blinding Speed
28 Destiny: Doubleshot
29 Destiny: Embodiment of Law
30 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction OR Improved Critical: Thrown
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea OR Plane of Earth

 4 Monk   : Path of Inevitable Dominion

 1 Deity  : Follower of: Amaunator


Enhancements (80+2 AP)

Elf-Arcane Archer (42 AP)
Arcane Archer, Morphic Arrows, Metalline Arrows, Aligned Arrows, Shadow Arrows, Mystical Archer
Conjure Arrows, Corrosive Arrows
Force Arrows II, Inferno Shot I, Elemental Damage
Terror Arrows, Soul Magic, Elemental Damage, Dexterity
Banishing Arrows, Paralyzing Arrows, Smiting Arrows, Elemental Damage, Dexterity
Moonbow, Arrow of Slaying, Final Strike, Elemental Damage, Runebow

Morninglord (14 AP)
Elven Accuracy
Rejuvenation of Dawn II
Enchantment Lore III, Arcanum I
Arcane Archer

Henshin Mystic (11 AP)
Riddle of Fire, Ki Bolt, Sounding Staff
Negotiator III, Way of the: Patient Tortoise
Contemplation III

Ninja Spy (11 AP)
Basic Ninja Training, Advanced Ninja Training, Shadow Veil
Ninjutsu: Poison Exploit, Stealthy III
Ninjutsu: Poisoned Soul, Melee/Ranged Power Boost III

Kensei (4 AP)
Kensei Focus: Archery
Haste Boost III

Leveling Guide

Morninglord: Elven Accuracy
Rejuvenation of Dawn II
Enchantment Lore III, Arcanum I
Arcane Archer

Ninja Spy: Basic Ninja Training, Advanced Ninja Training
Ninjutsu: Poison Exploit, Stealthy III
Ninjutsu: Poisoned Soul

Henshin Mystic: Riddle of Fire, Ki Bolt, Sounding Staff
Negotiator III, Way of the: Patient Tortoise
Contemplation III

Elf-Arcane Archer: Arcane Archer, Morphic Arrows, Metalline Arrows
Conjure Arrows, Corrosive Arrows
Force Arrows II, Elemental Damage
Terror Arrows, Soul Magic, Elemental Damage, Dexterity
Banishing Arrows, Paralyzing Arrows, Smiting Arrows, Elemental Damage
15. Spy2 Melee/Ranged Power Boost I, II, III; Spy0 Shadow Veil
16. eAA0 Aligned Arrows; eAA4 Dexterity; eAA2 Inferno Shot I
17. eAA5 Arrow of Slaying; eAA5 Final Strike
18. eAA5 Elemental Damage; eAA5 Moonbow
19. Ken0 Kensei Focus: Archery; Ken1 Haste Boost I, II, III
20. eAA5 Runebow


Destiny (24 AP)

Divine Crusader
Bane of Undeath, Interrogation, Purge the Wicked, Wisdom
Consecration III
Sacred Ground, Empyrean Magic, Blessed Blades
No Regret, Crusade
Castigation, Heavenly Presence, Celestial Champion

Twists of Fate (36 fate points)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Whirling Wrists (Tier 3 Shiradi)
Pin (Tier 2 Shiradi)
School Specialist: Enchantment (Tier 2 Magister)
Dance of Flowers (Tier 1 Flowers)

Like my other builds, you use bows with Manyshot and TTS, shuriken the rest of the time. If you don't have +2 racial APs, you'll have to drop either Shadow Veil or Haste Boost. EDIT: or Quick Draw (Henshin lvl 6 core).

[Quikster]

It should be okay. But I'd probably trade ranger for fighter now; pick up Haste Boost instead of Bow Strength + Far Shot. I'd also skip going STR+CHA-based and stick with DEX-based, now that Ninja grants DEX to damage all ki weapons inc. bows.

So maybe something like this:

ML Monkcher
18/1/1 Monk/Cleric/Fighter
Lawful Good Morninglord


Level Order

1. Cleric          6. Monk           11. Monk           16. Fighter
2. Monk            7. Monk           12. Monk           17. Monk
3. Monk            8. Monk           13. Monk           18. Monk
4. Monk            9. Monk           14. Monk           19. Monk
5. Monk           10. Monk           15. Monk           20. Monk


Stats
               36pt     Tome     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength         8       +2       4: DEX
Dexterity       18       +2       8: DEX
Constitution    14       +2      12: DEX
Intelligence    10       +2      16: DEX
Wisdom          16       +2      20: DEX
Charisma         8       +2      24: DEX
                                 28: DEX

Skills
          C  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  F  M  M  M  M
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Concent   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1     1  2  1  1  23
Spellcr   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Spot                     2     2     2     2     2           1     2  13
UMD          1  1  1  1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     11
Jump                                                   1               1
         ------------------------------------------------------------
          8  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  5  3  5  5  5  5


Feats

 1        : Point Blank Shot
 2 Monk   : Shuriken Expertise
 3        : Rapid Shot
 3 Monk   : Zen Archery
 6        : Precise Shot
 7 Monk   : Ten Thousand Stars
 9        : Manyshot
12        : Improved Critical: Ranged
15        : Precision
16 Fighter: Improved Precise Shot
18        : Spell Focus: Enchantment OR Improved Critical: Thrown
21 Epic   : Combat Archery
24 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Pierce Damage Reduction: Silver OR Epic Spell Power: Acid
27 Epic   : Blinding Speed
28 Destiny: Doubleshot
29 Destiny: Embodiment of Law
30 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction OR Improved Critical: Thrown
30 Legend : Scion of: Arborea OR Plane of Earth

 4 Monk   : Path of Inevitable Dominion

 1 Deity  : Follower of: Amaunator


Enhancements (80+2 AP)

Elf-Arcane Archer (42 AP)
Arcane Archer, Morphic Arrows, Metalline Arrows, Aligned Arrows, Shadow Arrows, Mystical Archer
Conjure Arrows, Corrosive Arrows
Force Arrows II, Inferno Shot I, Elemental Damage
Terror Arrows, Soul Magic, Elemental Damage, Dexterity
Banishing Arrows, Paralyzing Arrows, Smiting Arrows, Elemental Damage, Dexterity
Moonbow, Arrow of Slaying, Final Strike, Elemental Damage, Runebow

Morninglord (14 AP)
Elven Accuracy
Rejuvenation of Dawn II
Enchantment Lore III, Arcanum I
Arcane Archer

Henshin Mystic (11 AP)
Riddle of Fire, Ki Bolt, Sounding Staff
Negotiator III, Way of the: Patient Tortoise
Contemplation III

Ninja Spy (11 AP)
Basic Ninja Training, Advanced Ninja Training, Shadow Veil
Ninjutsu: Poison Exploit, Stealthy III
Ninjutsu: Poisoned Soul, Melee/Ranged Power Boost III

Kensei (4 AP)
Kensei Focus: Archery
Haste Boost III

Leveling Guide

Morninglord: Elven Accuracy
Rejuvenation of Dawn II
Enchantment Lore III, Arcanum I
Arcane Archer

Ninja Spy: Basic Ninja Training, Advanced Ninja Training
Ninjutsu: Poison Exploit, Stealthy III
Ninjutsu: Poisoned Soul

Henshin Mystic: Riddle of Fire, Ki Bolt, Sounding Staff
Negotiator III, Way of the: Patient Tortoise
Contemplation III

Elf-Arcane Archer: Arcane Archer, Morphic Arrows, Metalline Arrows
Conjure Arrows, Corrosive Arrows
Force Arrows II, Elemental Damage
Terror Arrows, Soul Magic, Elemental Damage, Dexterity
Banishing Arrows, Paralyzing Arrows, Smiting Arrows, Elemental Damage
15. Spy2 Melee/Ranged Power Boost I, II, III; Spy0 Shadow Veil
16. eAA0 Aligned Arrows; eAA4 Dexterity; eAA2 Inferno Shot I
17. eAA5 Arrow of Slaying; eAA5 Final Strike
18. eAA5 Elemental Damage; eAA5 Moonbow
19. Ken0 Kensei Focus: Archery; Ken1 Haste Boost I, II, III
20. eAA5 Runebow


Destiny (24 AP)

Divine Crusader
Bane of Undeath, Interrogation, Purge the Wicked, Wisdom
Consecration III
Sacred Ground, Empyrean Magic, Blessed Blades
No Regret, Crusade
Castigation, Heavenly Presence, Celestial Champion

Twists of Fate (36 fate points)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Whirling Wrists (Tier 3 Shiradi)
Pin (Tier 2 Shiradi)
School Specialist: Enchantment (Tier 2 Magister)
Dance of Flowers (Tier 1 Flowers)

Like my other builds, you use bows with Manyshot and TTS, shuriken the rest of the time. If you don't have +2 racial APs, you'll have to drop either Shadow Veil or Haste Boost.

Awesome thanks. I’ll give it a try

[xBunny]

For some loosely defined notion of "better," at any rate.

Zen Monkcher (U37)
Monk 20
Lawful Neutral Elf


Stats
               28pt     32pt     34pt     36pt     Level Up
               ----     ----     ----     ----     --------
Strength         8        8        8        8       4: DEX
Dexterity       20       20       20       20       8: DEX
Constitution    12       14       14       14      12: DEX
Intelligence     8        8        8        8      16: DEX
Wisdom          14       14       15       16      20: DEX
Charisma         8        8        8        8      24: DEX
                                                   28: DEX

Skills
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Concent   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Spellcr   1  1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1  11
UMD       2     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     1     11
Balance   1                                                            1
Tumble    1                                                            1
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         12  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3  3


Feats

 1        : Point Blank Shot
 1 Monk   : Shuriken Expertise
 2 Monk   : Precision
 3        : Rapid Shot
 6        : Precise Shot
 6 Monk   : Ten Thousand Stars
 8 Swap   : Zen Archery replaces Precision
 9        : Manyshot
12        : Improved Critical: Ranged
15        : Improved Precise Shot
18        : Precision OR Improved Critical: Thrown
21 Epic   : Combat Archery
24 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Holy Strike OR Pierce Damage Reduction: Silver OR Epic Spell Power: Acid
27 Epic   : Blinding Speed
28 Destiny: Doubleshot
29 Destiny: Embodiment of Law OR Deific Warding
30 Epic   : Improved Martial Arts
30 Legend : Scion of: Astral Plane OR Plane of Earth

 3 Monk   : Path of Inevitable Dominion

Hey. Is this build still relevant? Does elemental damage from AA tree works with shuri?

[unbongwah]

AA imbues no longer work with anything besides arrows. I think they fixed that bug a few years ago.

AFAIK nothing has changed which breaks my pure monkcher. I'm mostly retired from DDO these days, though, so I couldn't tell you how it compares to more recent ranged builds like Inquisitives.

[xBunny]

AFAIK nothing has changed which breaks my pure monkcher.

So shuri outperform bows, even without +5d6 elemental damage from AA?

I'm mostly retired from DDO these days

Ahh sad to hear that, like to read your posts

[unbongwah]

So shuri outperform bows, even without +5d6 elemental damage from AA?

The big advantage of shuriken over bows is their much higher number of procs due to Shuriken Expertise + Advanced Ninja Training stacking. Fixing the imbue bug nerfed shuriken DPS at the time but not enough for bows outside of Manyshot to catch up.

The real Golden Age of shuriken builds wasn't the AA imbue bugs, though. IMO it was when Vistani Knife Fighter's Weapon Versatility worked with any weapon; which let you apply Melee Power instead of Ranged Power to ranged or thrown weapons. That coupled with Henshin's high Melee Power led to builds like this glorious monstrosity. It was so obviously OP prior to release, I'm surprised it made it off Lamannia. But the devs eventually caught on and nerfed Weapon Versatility (and Henshin's MP). It was a great three months for shuriken builds while it lasted, though!

[xBunny]

The big advantage of shuriken over bows is their much higher number of procs due to Shuriken Expertise + Advanced Ninja Training stacking.

As I understand it depends on DEX strongly. For player with little past lives, tomes +2 from favor and random loot(like me), it roughly hits 50 DEX, meaning 50% to proc additional projectile. I see how it over DPS bows with 80+ dex, but is this true with 50 dex? Taking into account shuri has more attack speed with Quick Draw + Rapid Shot it might.

The real Golden Age of shuriken builds wasn't the AA imbue bugs, though. IMO it was when Vistani Knife Fighter's Weapon Versatility worked with any weapon; which let you apply Melee Power instead of Ranged Power to ranged or thrown weapons. That coupled with Henshin's high Melee Power led to builds like this glorious monstrosity. It was so obviously OP prior to release, I'm surprised it made it off Lamannia. But the devs eventually caught on and nerfed Weapon Versatility (and Henshin's MP). It was a great three months for shuriken builds while it lasted, though!

Ahh yeah, I've read this article some time ago