Greater Ruin and "mana dumping"

[AtomicMew]

So you think [a non maximized spell/2seconds] is gonna break the game in environments like DOJ or MOD?

I think your suggestion is really good. There is still a lot of thinking in D&D logic, where spells are really valuable and shouldn't be spammed. but in DDO, the value of a spell is much closer to the value of the swing of a sword.

[slarden]

Agree that greater ruin is potentially problematic - and maybe should be dropped entirely.

Disagree the solution is to put limits on spell point potions as that seems more harmful to new players than helpful.

Alot of vets already have clickies, extra sp from past lifes and know how to manage sp. It's the new players that have problems with sp management and sp potions helped me bridge the gap a bit when learning how to play a caster properly.

If people mana dump they are probably going to just top off whenever they can so it will have no impact. It's the new players without unlimited resources that wait till they are out of sp before considering a potion that will be hurt the most.

The cooldown on Greater Ruin is what should be increased.

[IronClan]

Greater Ruin Should not exist at all, It is not DPS In any sort of way. IMHO

I disagree I would like the game to have dynamic range in terms of how we DPS things. Right now 99% of the game is about "how fast can you spam small amounts of damage/affixes/procs"

Repeaters
Warlocks
Shuricannons
Tempests/TWF of all sorts
SWF with +30% alacrity
Wolf form
SHiradi
THF spamming 3 to 7 cleaves

EVERYTHING is about spamming repeated attacks. Almost nothing (except SP based casting) is about applying the right spell at the right time, or weighing your SP use against the situation... These high SP use spells allow that, and allow a different build direction and largely completely different feeling playstyle to most of the others.

I just wish there are some Melee counterpart to SP based casting.

[Cetus]

I hate this greater ruin thing. There's no challenge whatsoever in this - its just a massive damage easy button. At least things like energy burst and dragon breath have a rather unforgiving save (since items don't affect it). Here, there's no resistence, no save, nothing to stop it.

Just chug pots, run around, and ruin your way through anything.

Stupid.

[AtomicMew]

Alot of vets already have clickies, extra sp from past lifes and know how to manage sp. It's the new players that have problems with sp management and sp potions helped me bridge the gap a bit when learning how to play a caster properly.

If people mana dump they are probably going to just top off whenever they can so it will have no impact. It's the new players without unlimited resources that wait till they are out of sp before considering a potion that will be hurt the most.

Isn't that sort of the point?

Vets have better SP management and in addition, pretty much every vet that plays a caster has unlimited SP due to pots at this point. Newbies have worse management and a very limited SP pots.

So in order to level the playing field a bit, wouldn't it make sense to restrict pots even just a little bit and increase other SP recovery options for everyone?

[Silverleafeon]

In 104 lives, Fawngate has only meet one player who chugged pots with zero concern for resource depletion.
Most casters are quite conservative with their spell points or learn to do so in due.

DDO has never been a game to stop players from doing something incredibly stupid and looking foolish afterwards.
At level 30, a player should have learned or will learn a piece of what DDO is like.

[IronClan]

I hate this greater ruin thing. There's no challenge whatsoever in this - its just a massive damage easy button. At least things like energy burst and dragon breath have a rather unforgiving save (since items don't affect it). Here, there's no resistence, no save, nothing to stop it.

Just chug pots, run around, and ruin your way through anything.

Stupid.

As opposed to melee? Run around hold mouse button down spam cleaves... kill everything infinitely without any resource usage and with a **** sight more durability, speed, and DPS?

So hey have you looked at your own videos by chance? Doing the DPS you're doing I find your protest suspicious in the extreme.

G. Ruin will use the best Store pots 700-ish average SP proc up in about 4 casts. In REAL DDO no ones chugging, in forum DDO we'll be chuging these and dominating Cetus's completion times... Oh noes!!!...

Are you really concerned about people guzzling a pot every 4 casts? Killing maybe a couple monsters per room? How many will you have killed while using NO resource, NO save based abilities, and employing NO special tactics? 4 times more than the SP based caster? 6 times more?

Or is this really just more of your famous "I want to ensure my playstyle remains dominant so I'm going to shout down everything that threatens to compete with it?" ploy? Ala Bard, Ala SWF, and Ala almost every single buff to any melee that you aren't currently playing?

[jalont]

As opposed to melee? Run around hold mouse button down spam cleaves... kill everything infinitely without any resource usage and with a **** sight more durability, speed, and DPS?

So hey have you looked at your own videos by chance? Doing the DPS you're doing I find your protest suspicious in the extreme.

G. Ruin will use the best Store pots 700-ish average SP proc up in about 4 casts. In REAL DDO no ones chugging, in forum DDO we'll be chuging these and dominating Cetus's completion times... Oh noes!!!...

Are you really concerned about people guzzling a pot every 4 casts? Killing maybe a couple monsters per room? How many will you have killed while using NO resource, NO save based abilities, and employing NO special tactics? 4 times more than the SP based caster? 6 times more?

Or is this really just more of your famous "I want to ensure my playstyle remains dominant so I'm going to shout down everything that threatens to compete with it?" ploy? Ala Bard, Ala SWF, and Ala almost every single buff to any melee that you aren't currently playing?

I agree mostly. Casters are so much less powerful than melee right now that it's hard to think anything in the update goes too far. I'm a triple everything completionist, and melee at this level is so far ahead of casting, it's ridiculous. I don't see how greater ruin will swing things too far in the other direction. I guess it's possible as math and interpretation doesn't always tell the whole story, but I just don't see it. Heck, I don't even all of these changes put together making casters on par with melee/ranged, let alone one ability making them too overpowered.

[IronClan]

In 104 lives, Fawngate has only meet one player who chugged pots with zero concern for resource depletion.
Most casters are quite conservative with their spell points or learn to do so in due.

DDO has never been a game to stop players from doing something incredibly stupid and looking foolish afterwards.
At level 30, a player should have learned or will learn a piece of what DDO is like.

Agreed Silver, a supreme SP store pot returns like 700sp or something like four casts of greater ruin per chug.... lol if someone wants to do this, then even the most gigantic stacks of anniversary card pots are going to get sucked down in a few weeks...

Forum DDO taken to the extreme.

[slarden]

Isn't that sort of the point?

Vets have better SP management and in addition, pretty much every vet that plays a caster has unlimited SP due to pots at this point. Newbies have worse management and a very limited SP pots.

So in order to level the playing field a bit, wouldn't it make sense to restrict pots even just a little bit and increase other SP recovery options for everyone?

No and I acquire more than I use.

It makes little sense to punish newer players because the rest of us learned how to manage our sp. I don't plan to take greater ruin any of my characters. To much sp for the damage.

I would rather see the restriction on greater ruin.

[Cetus]

Looks like you still have your panties up in a bunch, not sure what I've done to bring out such hostility lol

but:

As opposed to melee? Run around hold mouse button down spam cleaves... kill everything infinitely without any resource usage and with a **** sight more durability, speed, and DPS?

So hey have you looked at your own videos by chance? Doing the DPS you're doing I find your protest suspicious in the extreme.

I'd urge you to follow your own advice, because if you do then you'll also notice me DYING on my melee in some of the videos. You know why? Because unlike ruin spamming caster, you actually have to go toe-to-toe with mobs.

Also, I happen to be quite good at playing melee after nearly a decade of experience - where my to-hit, defenses, twitch skills, damage output, and gear are all tricked out. With ruin, you need to do none of that - just equip an impulse item and CLICK BUTTON. Run around, swing a pot, repeat, if one so desires.

G. Ruin will use the best Store pots 700-ish average SP proc up in about 4 casts. In REAL DDO no ones chugging, in forum DDO we'll be chuging these and dominating Cetus's completion times... Oh noes!!!...

My completion times? Do you realize how outdated they are? Arguments from ignorance are my favorite, and you don't disappoint =D

Are you really concerned about people guzzling a pot every 4 casts? Killing maybe a couple monsters per room? How many will you have killed while using NO resource, NO save based abilities, and employing NO special tactics? 4 times more than the SP based caster? 6 times more?

Am I really concerned? No, not really. But I do wish this game rewarded skillful play more than just expanding our repertoire of easy buttons.

Or is this really just more of your famous "I want to ensure my playstyle remains dominant so I'm going to shout down everything that threatens to compete with it?" ploy? Ala Bard, Ala SWF, and Ala almost every single buff to any melee that you aren't currently playing?

Famous? Lol, you do realize that I play a sorc right - greater ruin will easily become a part of my playstyle. That's the opposite of "threatening to compete with my playstyle", silly statement.

I'm actually interested in preserving whatever integrity this game has left, go figure. This addition actually benefits me, you're really close-minded lol

[Wizza]

I hate this greater ruin thing. There's no challenge whatsoever in this - its just a massive damage easy button. At least things like energy burst and dragon breath have a rather unforgiving save (since items don't affect it). Here, there's no resistence, no save, nothing to stop it.

Just chug pots, run around, and ruin your way through anything.

Stupid.

Agreed.

[Wizza]

Get rid of this stupid feat.

http://prntscr.com/9aktpf

http://prntscr.com/9aktm5


Ruin + Greater Ruin combo, 54 + 91 SP for both with Lesser Maximize + Litany clickies for a total of 27.184 UNAVOIDABLE, NON-RESISTANT DAMAGE. And I don't have too much Spellpower in force. We are going to destroy every single boss that you will ever make with just 3-4 casters in the party with absolutely no skill whatsoever.

This is what happens when you use the new Wellspring of Power:

http://prntscr.com/9akv9t

http://prntscr.com/9akvym

11k (Ruin crit) + 23k (Greater Ruin crit) damage for still the same 140 SP cost. The sum is 34k damage, if you can't math.

Ruin was stupid enough. This is Greater Stupin.

Mana dumping? You don't need any mana dumping when you can manage 2-3 clickies. This is actually beyond ridicolous. I was super excited to have fun with Master of Air and Burst of Glacial Wrath but there is no way anyone shouldn't get this OP combo if Greater Ruin doesn't get deleted.

[jalont]

Get rid of this stupid feat.

http://prntscr.com/9aktpf

http://prntscr.com/9aktm5


Ruin + Greater Ruin combo, 54 + 91 SP for both with Lesser Maximize + Litany clickies for a total of 27.184 UNAVOIDABLE, NON-RESISTANT DAMAGE. And I don't have too much Spellpower in force. We are going to destroy every single boss that you will ever make with just 3-4 casters in the party with absolutely no skill whatsoever.

This is what happens when you use the new Wellspring of Power:

http://prntscr.com/9akv9t

http://prntscr.com/9akvym

11k (Ruin crit) + 23k (Greater Ruin crit) damage for still the same 140 SP cost. The sum is 34k damage, if you can't math.

Ruin was stupid enough. This is Greater Stupin.

Mana dumping? You don't need any mana dumping when you can manage 2-3 clickies. This is actually beyond ridicolous. I was super excited to have fun with Master of Air and Burst of Glacial Wrath but there is no way anyone shouldn't get this OP combo if Greater Ruin doesn't get deleted.

I'm not interested on a single crit of a spell.Perhaps you or someone could run some actual dps tests rather than posting random single crit numbers.

[IronClan]

Mana dumping? You don't need any mana dumping when you can manage 2-3 clickies. This is actually beyond ridicolous. I was super excited to have fun with Master of Air and Burst of Glacial Wrath but there is no way anyone shouldn't get this OP combo if Greater Ruin doesn't get deleted.

NM misunderstood what you meant by clickies... honestly who cares about clickies that last 20 seconds? Good boss DPS when you and "3 or 4 other casters" all combine a couple raid items with extremely limited use? Okay sounds WAI.

20,000 ish damage is impressive until you stop playing forum DDO and notice that the boss has 375,000 hit points... 18 casts IF YOU WERE TO AVERAGE 20k (which you won't).

Your post can be summed up as: If edge case meets edge case and only ever crits and there's 3 or 4 of them and they all have lesser maximize and Litany then DOOOooOOoOmMMmmmmmm!!!1111ONE

[IronClan]

Looks like you still have your panties up in a bunch, not sure what I've done to bring out such hostility lol

I'm actually interested in preserving whatever integrity this game has left, go figure. This addition actually benefits me, you're really close-minded lol

Literally everyone around here and elsewhere knows that you constantly rail against anything that competes with or proxy nerfs your build, you can pretend to not know what I'm talking about if you want to I've literally read you replying here and elsewhere to people accusing you of such so pretending it's not out there for anyone to read is just silly.

It's interesting that you play a caster but have this rather wacky idea that they never die or get into danger... Suggests that you're not using your caster much at the very least. Or you're just exaggerating to support your argument.

The fact that you're seemingly unaware of how little SP even a store pot returns (enough for a couple pitiful casts of greater ruin) suggests limited experience with casters, or intentional dishonesty about them for the sake of your agenda.

The fact that you think outright killing a single mob per cooldown with 150+ SP is super-powered is completely ludicrous given how many videos of you there are just spamming cleaves mowing through entire quests!

What was your big Barb crits again Cetus? 15,000+? at zero cost? because you swung a weapon with no resource cost? Wow took a lot of skill you hold the LMB down and mash a couple attacks and watch the free big numbers float up.

At least someone casting Ruin has to target something, a step that's not necessary with 5 digit melee damage.

[Wizza]

NM misunderstood what you meant by clickies... honestly who cares about clickies that last 20 seconds? Good boss DPS when you and "3 or 4 other casters" all combine a couple raid items with extremely limited use? Okay sounds WAI.

20,000 ish damage is impressive until you stop playing forum DDO and notice that the boss has 375,000 hit points... 18 casts IF YOU WERE TO AVERAGE 20k (which you won't).

Your post can be summed up as: If edge case meets edge case and only ever crits and there's 3 or 4 of them and they all have lesser maximize and Litany then DOOOooOOoOmMMmmmmmm!!!1111ONE

I'm pretty sure you can't math. Force/Shiradi builds can have over 40% Spell crit chance and can get way bigger numbers than an Air/Cold savant.

5 casters, 100k dmg in 2 seconds. Not bad for bosses? Yeah, pretty sure math wasn't your best subject in high school. Oh and non-crit combined is only around 12k dmg, which is 70k damage with 5 casters. Not broken at all

honestly who cares about clickies that last 20 seconds?

Not my fault if you can't caster. Casters are all about micromanaging 20s clickies and 3s spells.

The fact that you're seemingly unaware of how little SP even a store pot returns (enough for a couple pitiful casts of greater ruin)

700 average sp with 1 Superior potion.

91 SP Greater Ruin with Litany and Lesser maximize.

700/91 = 7,69.

Yup, only a couple pitiful casts.

[Cetus]

How about you actually detach from your self-absorbed agenda and actually READ my responses, ok? I'm not making this up:

Literally everyone around here and elsewhere knows that you constantly rail against anything that competes with or proxy nerfs your build, you can pretend to not know what I'm talking about if you want to I've literally read you replying here and elsewhere to people accusing you of such so pretending it's not out there for anyone to read is just silly.

This is simply not true. I really couldn't care less how "everyone and anyone knows whatever or accuses me of whatever". It's pretty standard on these boards, and is usually reactionary.

Here's a fact: Greater ruin actually enhances my build, and I'm still calling it out as a stupid easy button. So, pipe down with your conspiracy

It's interesting that you play a caster but have this rather wacky idea that they never die or get into danger... Suggests that you're not using your caster much at the very least. Or you're just exaggerating to support your argument.

You're putting words in my mouth again. And actually, I play my caster quite a bit more than melee. And there's no exaggeration to say that you can maintain a considerable distance from your target while winging around. So, you're wrong on all 3 accounts.

The fact that you're seemingly unaware of how little SP even a store pot returns (enough for a couple pitiful casts of greater ruin) suggests limited experience with casters, or intentional dishonesty about them for the sake of your agenda.

"The fact that I'm seemingly unaware" - well, that's a statement just replete with meaning. Lmao

I think I've been playing this game long enough to know what a mana pot gives me, lol. Just stop.

The fact that you think outright killing a single mob per cooldown with 150+ SP is super-powered is completely ludicrous given how many videos of you there are just spamming cleaves mowing through entire quests!

Incorrect comparison. I cleave through trash mobs at close quarters. If I actually take my barbarian and stand him toe-to-toe with an EE boss, I'll have to run around and silver flame - can't just stand there and tank them without outside healing a lot of the time.

This is where ruin comes in - casters can dessimate EE bosses just by landing this 100% easy button that is guaranteed to do amazing damage. No save, no resistance needed. All that's required of you is to equip an impulse item and press a button.

What was your big Barb crits again Cetus? 15,000+? at zero cost? because you swung a weapon with no resource cost? Wow took a lot of skill you hold the LMB down and mash a couple attacks and watch the free big numbers float up.

15K? 15k+Lol, looks like someone doesn't play barb.

It's not zero cost, do you play the game?

1. Going toe-to-toe with bosses and champions is a HUGE opportunity cost that casters don't have to pay.
2. Swinging my weapon actually requires a sufficient to-hit (this isn't trivial at endgame), years of DPS increasing gear and past lives, actually farming for the right weapon(s).
3. It also requires building up defenses that allow toe-to-toe combat.
4. You at least roll 1's.

Ruin? Click your target, hit button - BAM 10K.

Wait for cooldown.

At least someone casting Ruin has to target something, a step that's not necessary with 5 digit melee damage.

5 digit melee damage...I come nowhere near that on bosses. Idk what planet you live on.

[xTethx]

How about you actually detach from your self-absorbed agenda and actually READ my responses, ok? I'm not making this up:



This is simply not true. I really couldn't care less how "everyone and anyone knows whatever or accuses me of whatever". It's pretty standard on these boards, and is usually reactionary.

Here's a fact: Greater ruin actually enhances my build, and I'm still calling it out as a stupid easy button. So, pipe down with your conspiracy



You're putting words in my mouth again. And actually, I play my caster quite a bit more than melee. And there's no exaggeration to say that you can maintain a considerable distance from your target while winging around. So, you're wrong on all 3 accounts.



"The fact that I'm seemingly unaware" - well, that's a statement just replete with meaning. Lmao

I think I've been playing this game long enough to know what a mana pot gives me, lol. Just stop.



Incorrect comparison. I cleave through trash mobs at close quarters. If I actually take my barbarian and stand him toe-to-toe with an EE boss, I'll have to run around and silver flame - can't just stand there and tank them without outside healing a lot of the time.

This is where ruin comes in - casters can dessimate EE bosses just by landing this 100% easy button that is guaranteed to do amazing damage. No save, no resistance needed. All that's required of you is to equip an impulse item and press a button.



15K? 15k+Lol, looks like someone doesn't play barb.

It's not zero cost, do you play the game?

1. Going toe-to-toe with bosses and champions is a HUGE opportunity cost that casters don't have to pay.
2. Swinging my weapon actually requires a sufficient to-hit (this isn't trivial at endgame), years of DPS increasing gear and past lives, actually farming for the right weapon(s).
3. It also requires building up defenses that allow toe-to-toe combat.
4. You at least roll 1's.

Ruin? Click your target, hit button - BAM 10K.

Wait for cooldown.



5 digit melee damage...I come nowhere near that on bosses. Idk what planet you live on.

I did some testing on lamma, and with my fully decked out melee I was getting 40 seconds on the kobold, and with my fully decked out shiradi caster I was able to get in the mid to high 40's for seconds. What does this say? Greater ruin is f'in stupid and doesn't need to be in the game. I still had 800 mana left from doing 500k damage, plus all my mana regen clickies, and I never used any litany clickies. Combine this with the easy fact I could easily kite around and do that much damage, versus a melee, who wont be able to just stand there and never have to move to do his/her damage.

[jalont]

I did some testing on lamma, and with my fully decked out melee I was getting 40 seconds on the kobold, and with my fully decked out shiradi caster I was able to get in the mid to high 40's for seconds. What does this say? Greater ruin is f'in stupid and doesn't need to be in the game. I still had 800 mana left from doing 500k damage, plus all my mana regen clickies, and I never used any litany clickies. Combine this with the easy fact I could easily kite around and do that much damage, versus a melee, who wont be able to just stand there and never have to move to do his/her damage.

Did you test a DC-based toon?