Do the game developers not care about monks anymore?

[Shoemaker]

Shoe - do you have any idea how this will effect Legendary Greensteel? I guess you cannot make greensteel wraps. Will you be able to make epic greensteel wraps? If not in u29, will they add epic greensteel wraps when they redo the monk?

You cannot currently make Green Steel handwraps, as far as I know there are no plans to have legendary Green Steel handwraps in U29, I'm not aware of current plans to offer them later once monk and handwraps are fixed, I'm sure it is something they are "discussing internally" though. More feedback asking for them would certainly help them lean that way if it is what the community wants as they do read and take into account our feedback.

[Grailhawk]

We have plans to fix all handwraps in the entirety of DDO by making them behave more like all other weapons in the game do.

Is it know if TWF monks using handwraps after this change will need to equip 2 wraps one on each hand? Or will wraps retain there status as a THF that can function as a single handed weapon and TWF with only one equipped?

Asking to know if its worth stocking up on extra named handwraps I would usually sell/give away because I already have one on the toons who needs them.

[DrawingGuy]

You cannot currently make Green Steel handwraps, as far as I know there are no plans to have legendary Green Steel handwraps in U29, I'm not aware of current plans to offer them later once monk and handwraps are fixed, I'm sure it is something they are "discussing internally" though. More feedback asking for them would certainly help them lean that way if it is what the community wants as they do read and take into account our feedback.

Please tell me that isn't true... the way I understood it was they forwent GS wraps because of attack speed unarmed has and they were worried about the GS procs. But that was before they added loads of cleaves, sped up throwing, rapid SWF attack speed, classes that have oodles of double strike.... unarmed is nowhere near the highest proc rate anymore. TOD rings with unarmed only proc options helped make up for that, but the Amrath update did not include new epic versions of those. Please don't shaft the Monks with GS again...

That does bring one point to be aware of when recoding wraps - please don't break TOD rings. Though if TOD procs work with everything or nothing at all, it would still be a price worth paying to have handwraps fixed, especially considering every other proc item doesn't work with wraps and might with the change. I'm glad they're taking a look at it; it was one of my main points in my Monk Pass, and I know it will take a lot of work. Thanks!

[HuneyMunster]

Is it know if TWF monks using handwraps after this change will need to equip 2 wraps one on each hand? Or will wraps retain there status as a THF that can function as a single handed weapon and TWF with only one equipped?

Asking to know if its worth stocking up on extra named handwraps I would usually sell/give away because I already have one on the toons who needs them.

It wouldn't surprise me if you need to use two pairs of wraps to qualify for TWF if they where made to work sames as other weapon types.

Another thing I'm interest to know will they be made finessable so would qualify for dex. Though I would like to see Wise Strikes as Wis is the only stat that cant be used for attacks with just a few excepts from a small amount of weapons.

[twigzz]

More feedback asking for them would certainly help them lean that way if it is what the community wants as they do read and take into account our feedback.

Really?....Really? Why in the world would anyone not want GS wraps as a monk? I can say 1 thing as to why they should puts wraps in. Because every other weapon can be made so why not wraps?

Just about all monk equipment has been abandoned for years now.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Really?....Really? Why in the world would anyone not want GS wraps as a monk? I can say 1 thing as to why they should puts wraps in. Because every other weapon can be made so why not wraps?

Just about all monk equipment has been abandoned for years now.

Sev has stated numerous times (DDO's Producer for those who don't know) that he wants to completely rehaul how handwraps work internally. Currently handwraps are not considered weapons and are actually custom scripts that are very fragile.

What they want to do (hopefully in '16) is take the time (and it will be quite time / resource intensive) and convert handwraps to be actual weapons. This will require an extensive time on Lamannia because so many chances that something will break. The good news is that by doing this - most if not all of the gripes about handwraps will go away / be fixed. Handwraps will still work essentially the same way - but now making new ones, and even Greensteel and Epic Greensteel versions should (*knocking on wood*) be possible.

Hopefully we also see a frying pan and garden spade and book available in epic greensteel as well!

The upcoming end of '15 start of '16 producers letter (probably published after patch 1 of update 29) should hopefully spell out this and the timeline(ish).

---

wow - got Ninja'd by Vargouille! (*shakes fist at Vargouille! ;p )

We have plans to fix all handwraps in the entirety of DDO by making them behave more like all other weapons in the game do. It is because handwraps are considered special and different that there have been so many bugs in the past. It's unfortunate that it's a great deal of work to fix, but it is a large fix across many items and systems (so it takes time no matter what, and extra time to make sure we get it right since it's complicated). Once we do that, we can make new handwraps and handwrap abilities the same as other items and combat styles, instead of having to make special cases for them each time. Then those items will be faster to make and with greatly reduced chance of having bugs (or, at least, the bugs won't just be for handwraps!)

[Mojo_d]

Ok,first of all and so as not to be misunderstood,I love monks.When I saw the class,I was excited,when I got to play one I loved it,and until today it remains my favorite toon,that I refuse to tr to anything else but a monk.
So now to the matter at hand.Monks may have been always buggy,but they haven't always been weak.Before the changes in AC (changing from dice system to % chance) and several other things,monks were one of the most powerful classes in game,even without greensteel handwraps.Enemies couldn't touch you,you could stun everything and do decent dps.And maybe you didnt have a fancy gs weapon,but in lvl18 you could have an alchemical handwrap and tod rings with 2 bursts on them.That can even reach the OP section :P . Handwraps were always an issue,but I dont think handwraps is the real reason monks are hurting.Outdated trees is the real hit we're getting as monks atm.So I might be into coding the last couple of years but I cant even fathom the difficulty to fixing something that has been in game for almost 10years(?). After all,handwraps maybe buggy,they have some logic in them.You can fight in monk style if you are a monk even without handwraps,the attack animation stays the same.That's reasonable.Having weapons and fighting,then fighting the same way when you unquip them,well,thats crazy.So I dont see why changing this and getting in so much effort just to satisfy more splashes.

The way attack animation in monks is,its pretty nice,hits come like rain,effects from various things proc like crazy and overall the way handwraps are,is not an issue.Where it starts to get tricky is when you try to multiclass a monk(with all the "does not work on with handwraps" thingy).Then all falls apart.But Id rather see the monk trees get buffed,than "fixing" unarmed just for people to be able to multiclass into crazy builds in order to get benefits like "shield of whirling steel" which after all having it working with unarmed would be silly even by just the description.
I dont critisize multiclassing or anything,I just don't see why it would be such a bad thing if a pure monk would be more powerful (with just a change in trees) than a monk splash.It's not like every class in game is better when you splash it(e.g. Warlock,new AA etc)
To sum up,I strongly agree for a pass as fast as possible,but not delay it for something that can be done with an easier way and make us happy

[Henky]

What about new outfits? The last named outfit that wasn't just a "one-size fits all armor" was the Spider-spun Caparison, from MotU, released on June 25, 2012.

And let's not forget to mention,
The more and more lackluster damage output in epics.
The 1 totally worthless enhancement tree, and the 2 mediocre (at best) trees.
The stance system that's ONLY viable in earth stance.
The dodge bonus that's way lower than rogues, while rogues get PRR from light armor.
The combo system that's greatly outdated.

Don't forget Robe MRR cap at 50, so Sightless 36 + 25 mysterious cloak/bracers will get you at 50 no matter what you do. And monks won't get better reflex saves than a rogue. Robe MRR cap should be 100, wizards use robes too and they don't have evasion.

Meditation of War, shintao tier 5 enhancement need to be reworked making all stances worthy. And even put Meditation of War in all trees, we don't want only one viable monk build. Just a few quick ideas:
Fire stance: +2 extra to str, +2 critical range threat, +5/10 melee-ranged power.
Air stance: +2 extra to dex, +5% stacking doublestrike and +5% stacking attack speed
Earth stance: +2 extra to con, 10/15 prr and 5% hit points
Water stance: +2 extra to wis, +2+(3*monk level) to saves (as divine grace), +5% dodge/dodge cap

Adjust numbers to whatever you think it's correct, but all stances should be worthy.

Also all capstones need to be +4 to the current stat they increase.

Also... wisdom is the only STAT that can not be used to hit and damage except for to hit with bows and Zen archery.

My monk is in his last life... and i don't know what to do with her, maybe make a wolf or make a bugged monk and have patience...

[losian2]

I am a player who used to love to play monks. But due to the bugs, not fixing things and flat out ignoring the class...I would like to hear from a dev if these problems would be ever be fixed. If not please take the monk class out. It pains me to see it still there. I would love to come play DDO again, but I just want to ask why? Why developers? Why?

I'm not sure what it is about the DDO community that prompts so many posts like this on, but come on guys.. Act like adults, carry on conversations, quit with the accusations and the pity parties. I mean, what do you expect? One of the devs to respond here and say "Yes! We hate monks, oh thank goodness someone finally said it! We sit around all day talking about how much we love making our monk players miserable and how much monks suck and how much we love that!"

Also, the reason is pretty simple I'd imagine. You work on a game, the game has a lot of code, old and new, interacting in a lot of ways.

You have a ton of newer and new-ish stuff that's reasonably well-documented and mostly intuitive. Using it to add/change spells/enchancements/destinies/etc. is all very doable. You have added several classes, revamped enhancements, and done tons of work because it all fits nicely.

And then, on the opposite side of the spectrum, you have the monk. EVERYTHING about monks is unique. Their weapons, their animations, their stances and abilities. All of it. None of it fits in any way into the nice standards you've got set. Also, it's probably not documented very well and the dev who worked on it probably ended up falling off the face of the earth, so there's no telling how it really works. To address many of the concerns of monk, in a way that's not just another bandaid, would require a serious amount of work and effort, introduce a plethora of new bugs and potential issues ( EVERY SINGLE thing that even touches or mentions handwraps, every single handwrap in game, all modifications of unarmed in every enhancement/feat/destiny/etc. ), and all so that one class will become feasible to bring up to speed.

Now.. When it comes to adding content to your game, do you put off significant updates, changes, fixes, etc. to every other class for a week? A few weeks, over a month? Just to fix one aspect of the monk so that it can then be further fixed? I imagine this is a case of the devs not really knowing just how bad it really is. They probably looked at the code a few times and everyone's face scrunched up like "oh man seriously why would that be done that way oh gosh" and then decided to put it off again. There's a reason unarmed doesn't work half the time and it's so finnicky with feats and everything else.

I'm not saying it's the "right" decision, but it's pretty easy to see why it was the chosen decision. Fixing monks isn't really exciting for anyone that doesn't play monks. The entire class needs a huge overhaul - the various elemental/light/dark punches are kinda weak, the finishers feel hit or miss useless, the class will basically be nearly remade at this point it feels like. So yeah, when it comes down to it, it's probably a mountain of work. And it's a very large mountain that would benefit and interest a relative minority of players. It's also a catch 22 - the longer monk isn't updated/overhauled, the fewer people play it, the less people who really actively care about it being fixed/updated, rinse repeat the cycle. In a perfect world devs would have ample time to tackle every class while still having the time to add and balance new content and all that jazz, but that's not in the cards for DDO right now.

So, as a developer, you do what you can - you throw some bones as far as bug fixes, new handwraps, etc., and you *try* to find the opportunity to do a major overhaul. But understand that doing so is all time that could go into a shiny new something that many more people would likely be interested in.

I have a monk sitting I'd love to play, I know it sucks to be the red-headed stepchild class. I played BST back in EQ when they had no AAs and half the abilities were broke - but I loved the class so I stuck with it anyways, and eventually stuff got fixed. It's not perfect, but hey. Either wait or play and deal with it. Or at least don't word your posts like a kid on Christmas who didn't get the toy he wanted. Engage the devs like adults and it's all a lot easier for everyone. Yes, it sucks that monk has been kinda dead in the water for so long, but it's a really big undertaking and there's no telling how much could break in trying to fix it, meaning they have to make a rather calculated effort to decide when it's best to even try to tackle that, while still keeping enough going that everyone else who doesn't care about monks is still interested in playing.

[relenttless]

What about new outfits? The last named outfit that wasn't just a "one-size fits all armor" was the Spider-spun Caparison, from MotU, released on June 25, 2012.

And let's not forget to mention,
The more and more lackluster damage output in epics.
The 1 totally worthless enhancement tree, and the 2 mediocre (at best) trees.
The stance system that's ONLY viable in earth stance.
The dodge bonus that's way lower than rogues, while rogues get PRR from light armor.
The combo system that's greatly outdated.

THIS a thousand times THIS

Broken handwraps are about 10% of the problem, there is lot more to do than just fixing those.

The worst possible thing could be for handwraps to be working perfectly, without sorting out the rest of the classif it meant the devs turned round and went " Great, thats monks fixed! Well done everyone. Now lets do something important like an iconic gnome"

[FranOhmsford]

What about new outfits? The last named outfit that wasn't just a "one-size fits all armor" was the Spider-spun Caparison, from MotU, released on June 25, 2012.

Good point - At the very least http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Garments_of_Equilibrium desperately needs a Green Augment Slot added!

And let's not forget to mention,
The more and more lackluster damage output in epics.

Yup.

The 1 totally worthless enhancement tree, and the 2 mediocre (at best) trees.

Yup.

The stance system that's ONLY viable in earth stance.

Yup.

The dodge bonus that's way lower than rogues, while rogues get PRR from light armor.

WT?

The combo system that's greatly outdated.

Frankly I'd give up on the combo system entirely and concentrate on passive bonuses while pushing Monks into actually making a choice between Earth, Air, Fire and Water {Do it like with Sorcs - One Main, one secondary, one not really bothered with, one penalised heavily....So Fire Sorcs get a huge bonus to Fire, a small bonus to Air, no bonus to Earth and a massive penalty to Water.}.

DDO is simply too fast for the comboe system to work - Mobs go down before you even have your finishing move handy, You lose the finishing move if you interact with anything so no self healing through pots or scrolls!
And the only finishing move that gets any use these days is Earth, Light, Earth {Grasp the Earth Dragon} and then only once in a blue moon!

IF you're going to stick with Finishers they need to be actually useful!

[Mojo_d]

The way things are,I would suggest not waste time in handwraps recoding which will take so long and will most likely produce more bugs.It's not like we haven't had access to thunder-forged handwraps,or epic scraps of the enlightment were a bad choice(boosting dice through the roof).
But as ppl said,give us something to compensate for falling behind,like some ppl said about outfits.And since by just upping prr would make monks the same as other classes,which they are not,maybe they could have a higher dodge bonus/cap.It makes more sense after all,by wearing pajamas monks must be better at dodging attacks.Also have more mrr,because evasion nowadays only covers 70-80% of the spells,and by having 0mrr as a monk,lets say 35with an item,make them useless against stupid opponents that shouldnt be useless,like mephits in toee for example.
So being able to reach 40 dodge as a monk doesnt seem to me unreasonable,and having some mrr to endure the no-save spells.
All in all,monks are unique,and I strongly believe they should stay that way.Making a pass for monk trees doesnt seem to me like a lot of work,with which I think it would be enough to get the monks back in the game.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Make ALL future HW Single Handed Weapons coded in a way to work with Stunning Fist etc but in all respects the same as any other equipped weapon like kamas.

Replace ALL current named handwraps everywhere with new versions of the same.

Old wraps would be useless.

New wraps made this way would breath a lot of like into the monk.

Oh...and no more of the "Only works with weapons" or "This does not work with HW" It's a stick in the eye that urges me to make inflammatory comments.

Someone tell me how changing the picture of club to look like a piece of cloth and it's function to not un-center you and work with stunning fist is so gd difficult....

[Shoemaker]

I've never actually played a monk long enough to play with finishers as I find them frustrating at low levels. I kind of understand the concept, but my understanding is that it requires a programmable keyboard to make a sequence of clicks or really good clicking skills (I'm old school and still prefer keyboard shortcuts over mouse clicks for many things). Perhaps they would be okay if hotbars were fixed and allowed for finishing move combinations to be programmed into a single hotbar slot, then I'd have a lot more fun with it and probably wouldn't be so anti-monk. I have hopes something like this will come with the monk pass.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Frankly I'd give up on the combo system entirely and concentrate on passive bonuses while pushing Monks into actually making a choice between Earth, Air, Fire and Water {Do it like with Sorcs - One Main, one secondary, one not really bothered with, one penalised heavily....So Fire Sorcs get a huge bonus to Fire, a small bonus to Air, no bonus to Earth and a massive penalty to Water.}.

DDO is simply too fast for the comboe system to work - Mobs go down before you even have your finishing move handy, You lose the finishing move if you interact with anything so no self healing through pots or scrolls!
And the only finishing move that gets any use these days is Earth, Light, Earth {Grasp the Earth Dragon} and then only once in a blue moon!

IF you're going to stick with Finishers they need to be actually useful!

I think monk finishing moves are very unique and I haven't seen anything like it in other games. However, i tend to agree with you. They are designed for a very comprehensive damage system that doesn't fit in DDO at this time. They simply don't compete with cleave chains, spammed warlock SLAs or machine gun fire from mechanics. If they are going to keep them I would either give them a straight up Ki cost and a one button click or I would incorporate them into the stance strikes with a % chance to proc. Of course the other problem is achieving the DCs neccesary for any of them to even land. Since monks must spread their points across so many abilities this ties in with the Pale Master DC conversation. What is an acceptable DC to get finishing moves to land?

[FranOhmsford]

I think monk finishing moves are very unique and I haven't seen anything like it in other games. However, i tend to agree with you. They are designed for a very comprehensive damage system that doesn't fit in DDO at this time. They simply don't compete with cleave chains, spammed warlock SLAs or machine gun fire from mechanics.

Exactly!

If they are going to keep them I would either give them a straight up Ki cost and a one button click

Not a bad idea.

or I would incorporate them into the stance strikes with a % chance to proc.

This however is BRILLIANT!

This might be worth pushing for - We know how much the Devs like %procs!

They should be set at say 25-30% as that would equal the 3 strike combo + 1 extra strike.

Of course the other problem is achieving the DCs neccesary for any of them to even land. Since monks must spread their points across so many abilities this ties in with the Pale Master DC conversation. What is an acceptable DC to get finishing moves to land?

For the buffs that isn't a problem.
For the heals again not a problem.
For the DC abilities however {incl. Burning Hands} definitely a problem!

Monks need these abilities to be worth using!

[peng]

I've never actually played a monk long enough to play with finishers as I find them frustrating at low levels. I kind of understand the concept, but my understanding is that it requires a programmable keyboard to make a sequence of clicks or really good clicking skills (I'm old school and still prefer keyboard shortcuts over mouse clicks for many things). Perhaps they would be okay if hotbars were fixed and allowed for finishing move combinations to be programmed into a single hotbar slot, then I'd have a lot more fun with it and probably wouldn't be so anti-monk. I have hopes something like this will come with the monk pass.

There is 1 button for all finishers. If you have a finisher charged up, the icon changes to whichever finisher it is. I set up 2 of each elemental attack on (alt) zxcv so I can more easily charge up any finisher.

[Shoemaker]

There is 1 button for all finishers. If you have a finisher charged up, the icon changes to whichever finisher it is. I set up 2 of each elemental attack on (alt) zxcv so I can more easily charge up any finisher.

Yes, but you have to do a sequence of things to charge them. I've not been very successful with that.

[FranOhmsford]

Yes, but you have to do a sequence of things to charge them. I've not been very successful with that.

I think what people don't get is that we don't all have gamer mice/joypads and a whole host of hotkeys set up.

Many of us play on a standard computer keyboard or even a laptop with a standard mouse!


Hotbar 1 on a Monk:

1) Stunning Fist
2) Quivering Palm
3) Dismissing Strike
4) Whirlwind Attack or Reed in the Wind or Elemental Ki Strike from Enhancements
5) Air
6) Earth
7) Light or Dark
8) Finisher
9) Main Self Heal ability
10) Secondary Self Heal ability

And once you get into Epics a whole host of new attacks need to be hotbarred!

There's just too many activated attacks!

It's not like DDO has activated attacks that become outdated or get upgraded as we level either - The attacks you use at Lvl 3 you're still using at Lvl 30! {Ok yes Monk Strikes do get upgraded but they're basically the same - and the finishers don't change at all!}.

You don't remove Cleave from your hot bar because you've got Momentum Swing or Lay Waste!


I actually rarely even use Fire or Water but they have to be there on a hotbar taking up space!

[Atremus]

We have plans to fix all handwraps

Planned to be fixed is good enough for the moment. I really miss my monk