Threnal - Levels and BB

[Matsu_Ieyasu]

I like Threnal, its a fun adventure that really delves into the Lore of Eberron.

I don't like how the levels of the Quests work. 8-9-10, 9-10-10, and 9-9-10 or something to that effect. It is so confusing and I never remember what's in the Adventure Compendium, compared to the Quest Doors, compared to the Quest Entry Screens, compared to the Experience Reports. I know they don't all agree with one another and I never remember which one is wrong.

Would it be possible to reconfigure the quests as 8-8-9, 9-9-10, 10-10-11 or 8-8-8, 9-9-9, 10-10-10. or something similar so that it makes more sense running the quests with a Bravery Bonus Streak. I realize the current team of Devs at Turbine Loathe revisiting older content, I think this is one of the exceptions where making the change might attract more players to run the content on a regular basis. I skip the content on a regular basis because it messes with the Bravery Streak, especially when I run a couple early and suddenly have a third of my level 9 quests run before I am level 11.

I would make a similar plea for Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk, however I want to start with the easier one.

[Stormraiser]

I like Threnal, its a fun adventure that really delves into the Lore of Eberron.

I don't like how the levels of the Quests work. 8-9-10, 9-10-10, and 9-9-10 or something to that effect. It is so confusing and I never remember what's in the Adventure Compendium, compared to the Quest Doors, compared to the Quest Entry Screens, compared to the Experience Reports. I know they don't all agree with one another and I never remember which one is wrong.

Would it be possible to reconfigure the quests as 8-8-9, 9-9-10, 10-10-11 or 8-8-8, 9-9-9, 10-10-10. or something similar so that it makes more sense running the quests with a Bravery Bonus Streak. I realize the current team of Devs at Turbine Loathe revisiting older content, I think this is one of the exceptions where making the change might attract more players to run the content on a regular basis. I skip the content on a regular basis because it messes with the Bravery Streak, especially when I run a couple early and suddenly have a third of my level 9 quests run before I am level 11.

I would make a similar plea for Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk, however I want to start with the easier one.

Signed

[FranOhmsford]

I like Threnal, its a fun adventure that really delves into the Lore of Eberron.

I don't like how the levels of the Quests work. 8-9-10, 9-10-10, and 9-9-10 or something to that effect. It is so confusing and I never remember what's in the Adventure Compendium, compared to the Quest Doors, compared to the Quest Entry Screens, compared to the Experience Reports. I know they don't all agree with one another and I never remember which one is wrong.

Would it be possible to reconfigure the quests as 8-8-9, 9-9-10, 10-10-11 or 8-8-8, 9-9-9, 10-10-10. or something similar so that it makes more sense running the quests with a Bravery Bonus Streak. I realize the current team of Devs at Turbine Loathe revisiting older content, I think this is one of the exceptions where making the change might attract more players to run the content on a regular basis. I skip the content on a regular basis because it messes with the Bravery Streak, especially when I run a couple early and suddenly have a third of my level 9 quests run before I am level 11.

I would make a similar plea for Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk, however I want to start with the easier one.

I've run a number of 3rd Life+ Lives now on multiple different toons and quite frankly Threnal is NOT NEEDED at Level 8-11! I can and do Hard Cap without it, In fact it's rare I run Red Fens either!

But that's Lvl 10 and 11 {Or 8 and 9 Quests with BB} - Shadow Flags, Shadow Crypt, VoN 1-4 + A Few extras like Stormcleave, Xorian, Delera's Pt 4 and Church and the Cult = More than enough XP for even a 3rd Life+ Character to HARD CAP 12.

The Problem is when you actually TAKE Lvl 12!
Because even if You're Hard Capped before taking it, Unless you run VoN 5+6 You won't get anywhere near being Hard Capped 14 off Lvl 10 Quests - Luckily there's a lot of 11s and a lot of XP in those 11s but it's still touch and go to remain Hardcapped going into running the Lvl 12 Quests AND THEN you've got the problem of a lack of quests at 12 too.

ALL OF THIS could be fixed just by moving the Lvl 8 and 9 Quests in Threnal to Lvl 10 so a Lvl 12 Player OR Party can run them all at once and get full BB on ALL OF THEM!
Move Chamber of Rahmat in Sands to Lvl 11 and Offering of Blood to Lvl 12 while you're at it Devs!

[PermaBanned]

I like Threnal, its a fun adventure that really delves into the Lore of Eberron.

I don't like how the levels of the Quests work. 8-9-10, 9-10-10, and 9-9-10 or something to that effect. It is so confusing and I never remember what's in the Adventure Compendium, compared to the Quest Doors, compared to the Quest Entry Screens, compared to the Experience Reports. I know they don't all agree with one another and I never remember which one is wrong.

Would it be possible to reconfigure the quests as 8-8-9, 9-9-10, 10-10-11 or 8-8-8, 9-9-9, 10-10-10. or something similar so that it makes more sense running the quests with a Bravery Bonus Streak. I realize the current team of Devs at Turbine Loathe revisiting older content, I think this is one of the exceptions where making the change might attract more players to run the content on a regular basis. I skip the content on a regular basis because it messes with the Bravery Streak, especially when I run a couple early and suddenly have a third of my level 9 quests run before I am level 11.

We've been asking for this simce not long after Bravery was introduced (which btw was years after Threnal was released). Running the quests with Bravery was a pita to me too, then I just started running Threnal at ~level 10. Then all the up & down in the quest levels becomes irrelevant to Bravery concerns.

I would make a similar plea for Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk, however I want to start with the easier one.

Both of those chains already have their quests levels in sequenchal order, so no fixing needed.

Remember: Bravery only has a limit on how high your character's level can be compared to the quest's level - but there is no lower limit to receive Bravery Bonus.

[Enoach]

While I totally get the Issue with bravery bonus and Threnal this is one of my favorite quest lines - I like the story.

Now that being said. I honestly never felt that Threnal West and East was intended to be run in such as way that you do ALL of West before East or vice versa.

To me the problems of Threnal are:

1. It is too easy to reset the whole chain so that you can't advance to South
2. South is a 9, 9, 10 progression - In both cases you just finished with base level 10.

Now since South is the Story Progression of East I had always wondered if south would not have been better off as a 10, 10, 10 progression. Maybe there would be less complaints of being One-Shot by Ice Flencers.

@Fran - Sure there are enough quests that you don't need this one. However, why limit the options available for leveling. Some people want to go fast and some people like to sit back and enjoy the journey. Threnal has a rich story but it also has a few advancement issues, I believe with a little ironing out the chain can be more popular than it is currently

[FranOhmsford]

@Fran - Sure there are enough quests that you don't need this one. However, why limit the options available for leveling. Some people want to go fast and some people like to sit back and enjoy the journey. Threnal has a rich story but it also has a few advancement issues, I believe with a little ironing out the chain can be more popular than it is currently

And that "Ironing out" would be easiest done simply by changing the base levels to 10 across the board for the Chain - THE DEVS CAN DO THIS - THEY DID IT WITH CABAL FOR ONE WHEN E-GH CAME OUT!

There's still enough Lvl 8 and 9 Quests to pick and choose what you want to run even without Threnal - As I said in my previous post....I regularly skip Red Fens TOO!

Lvl 10 and Lvl 12 are now the worst two levels in the game for actual quest numbers - Moving Threnal 8s and 9s to 10 while knocking Chamber of Rahmat up to 11 {where it belongs!} and OoB up to 12 {Same as WK, Chains and ADQ!} would help BOTH of these levels without needing to shoehorn in yet more OVERSCALED NEW QUESTS THAT DON'T BELONG AT THE LEVEL THEY'VE BEEN PLACED AT IN THE FIRST PLACE!


I've been campaigning for fixes to Quest Levels for a long time!
Tangleroot = Move 1st two quests to Lvl 4, Move last two quests to Lvl 6 - Instant reduction from a 5 level range to a 3 level range!
Sorrowdusk = Move 1st two quests to Lvl 7 - Now you've got Grey Moon 1-4 all at the same level!
Cult of the Six = Set ALL 6 Quests to Base Lvl 9 - DONE! {And even better - The Last two quests are no longer higher level on Elite than the Max Lvl for the Slayer Zone!}.
DELERAS = Move Pt 1 Up to Lvl 6 - Still bad but at least it's no longer 2-3 levels below the rest of the chain!

[PermaBanned]

I've been campaigning for fixes to Quest Levels for a long time!

There's nothing broken there to fix.

We have one quest chain that isn't a progressive order: Threnal - and it dates back to a few level caps ago (iirc Threnal predates the F2P release by a couple years?)

Those other quests & chains you mentioned all happen in progressive orders, and they also all predate Bravery Bonus. The only time I've found any of these to present a "problem" is when running with folks determined to run all quests at max Bravery level. Even then, only Threnal presents a hicup - at worst the Delera's, Tangleroot & Sorrowdusk chains need you to bounce back and forth between them (and a few other quests) while trying not to run anything under level. Lose that "I must be at max level/power to run quests" self-imposed restriction and suddenly maintaining BB throughout those chains becomes a non-issue.

[Enoach]

And that "Ironing out" would be easiest done simply by changing the base levels to 10 across the board for the Chain - THE DEVS CAN DO THIS - THEY DID IT WITH CABAL FOR ONE WHEN E-GH CAME OUT!

There's still enough Lvl 8 and 9 Quests to pick and choose what you want to run even without Threnal - As I said in my previous post....I regularly skip Red Fens TOO!

Lvl 10 and Lvl 12 are now the worst two levels in the game for actual quest numbers - Moving Threnal 8s and 9s to 10 while knocking Chamber of Rahmat up to 11 {where it belongs!} and OoB up to 12 {Same as WK, Chains and ADQ!} would help BOTH of these levels without needing to shoehorn in yet more OVERSCALED NEW QUESTS THAT DON'T BELONG AT THE LEVEL THEY'VE BEEN PLACED AT IN THE FIRST PLACE!


I've been campaigning for fixes to Quest Levels for a long time!
Tangleroot = Move 1st two quests to Lvl 4, Move last two quests to Lvl 6 - Instant reduction from a 5 level range to a 3 level range!
Sorrowdusk = Move 1st two quests to Lvl 7 - Now you've got Grey Moon 1-4 all at the same level!
Cult of the Six = Set ALL 6 Quests to Base Lvl 9 - DONE! {And even better - The Last two quests are no longer higher level on Elite than the Max Lvl for the Slayer Zone!}.
DELERAS = Move Pt 1 Up to Lvl 6 - Still bad but at least it's no longer 2-3 levels below the rest of the chain!

I disagree that threnal needs to be 10 across the board. I do agree that it should be more a level progression.

As for your other Quest series, I have come to believe Turbine actually likes these the way they are and don't really want them to be completed in an uninterrupted progression. Sure we use to do this, but we also got bonuses for running quests under-level. Now having quest chains progress in level as you advance also helps those that don't have long gaming sessions, there is no need to feel obligated to complete 6 to 10 quests simply because they are a chain.

Threnal is the only quest line that even if you ran East/West with Bravery you are most likely not going to get bravery with South until the Ultra-Short Third quest that is. And personally I actually think South 1 & 2 would easily rate as level 10s.

*Note to maximize your power with bravery for East/West you would need to do them in level order and not in mini-chain order. So you will need to bounce back and forth. Which could be a nice change of pace on the dungeons since in both cases you run the same dungeon 3 times with only a small variation on open areas.

[sithhound]

I like Threnal, its a fun adventure that really delves into the Lore of Eberron.

I don't like how the levels of the Quests work. 8-9-10, 9-10-10, and 9-9-10 or something to that effect. It is so confusing and I never remember what's in the Adventure Compendium, compared to the Quest Doors, compared to the Quest Entry Screens, compared to the Experience Reports. I know they don't all agree with one another and I never remember which one is wrong.

Would it be possible to reconfigure the quests as 8-8-9, 9-9-10, 10-10-11 or 8-8-8, 9-9-9, 10-10-10. or something similar so that it makes more sense running the quests with a Bravery Bonus Streak. I realize the current team of Devs at Turbine Loathe revisiting older content, I think this is one of the exceptions where making the change might attract more players to run the content on a regular basis. I skip the content on a regular basis because it messes with the Bravery Streak, especially when I run a couple early and suddenly have a third of my level 9 quests run before I am level 11.

I would make a similar plea for Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk, however I want to start with the easier one.

/signed. I would like to see this happen.

[sithhound]

Lvl 10 and Lvl 12 are now the worst two levels in the game for actual quest numbers - Moving Threnal 8s and 9s to 10 while knocking Chamber of Rahmat up to 11 {where it belongs!} and OoB up to 12 {Same as WK, Chains and ADQ!} would help BOTH of these levels without needing to shoehorn in yet more OVERSCALED NEW QUESTS THAT DON'T BELONG AT THE LEVEL THEY'VE BEEN PLACED AT IN THE FIRST PLACE!


I've been campaigning for fixes to Quest Levels for a long time!
Tangleroot = Move 1st two quests to Lvl 4, Move last two quests to Lvl 6 - Instant reduction from a 5 level range to a 3 level range!
Sorrowdusk = Move 1st two quests to Lvl 7 - Now you've got Grey Moon 1-4 all at the same level!
Cult of the Six = Set ALL 6 Quests to Base Lvl 9 - DONE! {And even better - The Last two quests are no longer higher level on Elite than the Max Lvl for the Slayer Zone!}.
DELERAS = Move Pt 1 Up to Lvl 6 - Still bad but at least it's no longer 2-3 levels below the rest of the chain!

Good ideas here, as well.

[FranOhmsford]

I disagree that threnal needs to be 10 across the board. I do agree that it should be more a level progression.

Personally I find Level Progression doesn't work with DDO - Groups are really really hard to find unless you're willing to run the entire chain at one level {preferably able to get Bravery on every quest in that Chain!}.
Chains like Tangleroot, Sorrowdusk and Yes Delera's = Solo!

Threnal I also end up soloing 9 times out of 10!

As for your other Quest series, I have come to believe Turbine actually likes these the way they are and don't really want them to be completed in an uninterrupted progression. Sure we use to do this, but we also got bonuses for running quests under-level. Now having quest chains progress in level as you advance also helps those that don't have long gaming sessions, there is no need to feel obligated to complete 6 to 10 quests simply because they are a chain.

My changes to "other" chains at max have 6 quests at the same level - Cult of Six {Grey Moon I set at Lvl 7 for all four, Co6 at Lvl 9 for all 6 - The two level difference for BB would actually reduce the number of people doing both chains in one go not increase that number! Some people will still do it how they've always done it of course.}.

And All of the Sorrowdusk Quests are super short - I can run every single one solo at level {on the right builds obviously} in under 5 minutes and keep the Slayer from resetting through the entire chain!
Separating Grey Moon and Co6 while reducing the level range of the quests within those 2 Chains will actually help those who only have a short time to play because these two would then be bite size Chains.

Tangleroot's reduction to 3 Level Range - 4-6 rather than 3-7 would increase the number of people running the entire Chain in one go {Probably at Lvl 6 for bravery on all 10 Quests} BUT again the quests are short and 4 lvl 4 quests, 2 lvl 5 quests and 4 lvl 6 quests again shouldn't be an issue for those with only a short period of time to play {Even flower sniffing you can complete 4 Tangleroot Quests in an Hour!}.

Threnal is the only quest line that even if you ran East/West with Bravery you are most likely not going to get bravery with South until the Ultra-Short Third quest that is. And personally I actually think South 1 & 2 would easily rate as level 10s.

Yes South 1+2 are blatantly the wrong level - They should both be 10!

That's a minimum requirement!

But why not go the whole hog and just move the entire Chain to Lvl 10 - Make Getting Groups EASIER!

*Note to maximize your power with bravery for East/West you would need to do them in level order and not in mini-chain order. So you will need to bounce back and forth. Which could be a nice change of pace on the dungeons since in both cases you run the same dungeon 3 times with only a small variation on open areas.

Threnal has one other problem - The NPCs for East and West WILL Reset the Chain if you're not careful! - I always do Derward side first, Coyle side second and don't flit between just in case {Yeah I know this is probably just Paranoia but I've also not messed up threnal in over 5 years!}.

[Matsu_Ieyasu]

I am currently running a TR group that includes a pretty casual player. By Casual I mean before we started he had never TR a character before, so he TR'd a character into a second life pounded their way to six and than used an Otto's Gift Box to get to 20, and TR'd again a couple of days later so he was on his first 36 point build.

When we got to level 6, he made a mistake and took level 7 before we capped out our XP at level 6. The mistake cost us between 85K and 100K XP that is pretty darned hard to make up. The lost XP was in the fact we could no longer run the Level 4 on Elite for BB AND we ran level 5 on Elite early. And than ran level 6 early and so on and so forth. The mistake has now caught up to us as we take level 11 and prep for level 12. Thus in this life I will be running both Red Fens and Threnal in hopes of getting to 14.

We tried to run Threnal at level but we either use the XP early or lose XP late. Using Early will get us to 12 but prolong getting to 13 or we take the slow boat to 12 and get to 13 pretty steadily. Neither choice is really enticing and honestly it is frustrating.

While you can space out runs in Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk to deal with the level increase Threnal is a different breed of cat. So I think life would be easier if the levels in Tangleroot and Sorrowdusk we adjusted I can more easily deal with them than I can Threnal.

Severlin is on record saying he loathes spending development time working with older content (see LOTRO) and I get that; however a number of quests have been adjusted in the past. I don't think much adjustment needs to be made beyond the level of the quest in terms of difficulty.

[sk3l3t0r]

There's nothing broken there to fix.

We have one quest chain that isn't a progressive order: Threnal - and it dates back to a few level caps ago (iirc Threnal predates the F2P release by a couple years?)

Those other quests & chains you mentioned all happen in progressive orders, and they also all predate Bravery Bonus. The only time I've found any of these to present a "problem" is when running with folks determined to run all quests at max Bravery level. Even then, only Threnal presents a hicup - at worst the Delera's, Tangleroot & Sorrowdusk chains need you to bounce back and forth between them (and a few other quests) while trying not to run anything under level. Lose that "I must be at max level/power to run quests" self-imposed restriction and suddenly maintaining BB throughout those chains becomes a non-issue.

This ^^, there is nothing broken, running a quest 2 levels over base is not a problem, it's a choice.

When I do run these chains I start the first few quests in the chain at 1 or 2 levels above, namely Tangleroot, Threnal, Sorrowdusk and end up finishing the chain way under level in 1 one or two runs. These chains are easy and do not offer much of a challenge as a 3rd + lifer.

You can easily cap to level 20 on a 1st / 2nd life toon without running full BB all the way to 20.

[FranOhmsford]

Severlin is on record saying he loathes spending development time working with older content (see LOTRO) and I get that; however a number of quests have been adjusted in the past. I don't think much adjustment needs to be made beyond the level of the quest in terms of difficulty.

Seriously:

1) How long does it take to change a Quest's Base Level? Cabal For One used to be Base Lvl 13 and when E-GH came out it was pushed up to Base Lvl 14 - The difficulty did not change!

2) I agree - None of these quests will require anything more than a simple Base Level Adjustment - No Need for difficulty adjustments....The Devs have proved with newer content that difficulty and level are not the same!

[In_Like_Flynn]

Bravery and Streak bonuses are an affront unto the Lord of Blades.

[Matsu_Ieyasu]

Bravery and Streak bonuses are an affront unto the Lord of Blades.

Oh I agree whole heartedly, however it is the system we have and we have to live with it. So I would hope that a small change (or six) makes BB and Threnal a much happier connection.