Update 29 Feats: Other Feats

[Jiirix]

That's a fair point.

Given that these are primarily themed around SLAs and low-cost commonly-cast damage spells, what would you say a Favored Soul specific option should look like? And a further Divine option in general?

Easy fix for favorite souls: Add their beloved shoulder cannon light pew-pew archon to the list of "Master of Light".

If you add Necrotic Bolt (and Inflict Moderate Wounds Mass) to Master of the Dead that would cover the Divine Emissary of Darkness SLAs.

Or make a new "Master of Darkness" Feat with Chill Touch, Necrotic Bolt, Negative Energy Burst and Inflict Moderate Wounds Mass. Unholy Blight and a single-target inflict spell could be added or swapped with an SLA for balancing.

A Master feat for Divine Emissary of Light could be "Master of Smiting" with Holy Smite, Flame Strike and some non SLA spells from the regular spell list like Order's Wrath, Deific Vengeance, (Greater) Glyph of Warding or -if you want the non-light caster clerics go crazy in happiness- the ultimate smite "Comet Fall"

Comet Fall is conjuration school and won’t have DC synergies with the SLA spells, Blade Barrier and Implosion. A Master of Smiting with Holy Smite, Flame Strike and Comet Fall could be the one feat that could make people roll caster clerics again that don't focus on light or instant death spells. And if a SLA fireball is ok a non SLA Comet Fall won't break anything balance wise?

[LightBear]

That's a fair point.

Given that these are primarily themed around SLAs and low-cost commonly-cast damage spells, what would you say a Favored Soul specific option should look like? And a further Divine option in general?

Why do you even have to ask, Give em back their wings!

[Atremus]

That's a fair point.

Given that these are primarily themed around SLAs and low-cost commonly-cast damage spells, what would you say a Favored Soul specific option should look like? And a further Divine option in general?

FvS only has 1 SLA by being Pure.

Perhaps:

Master of Punishment: Your Summoned Archon now casts Sunbolt based on your characters spell power and caster levels (uncapped)

Master of Destruction: Your Blade Barrier and Comet Fall no longer have a maximum caster level

Of these, the Archon is really the only low cost/readily accessible FvS SLA.

The build I tested on Lamania was a Pure Iconic to get access to Sunbolt.

Uncapping Blade Barrier would be amazing. A FvS has the Spell Pool to cast it enough, but it doesn't work on stationary targets. Not sure the game wants a FvS dropping 30d6 all over the place.

Will have to think on this more today.

[maddong]

That's a fair point.

Given that these are primarily themed around SLAs and low-cost commonly-cast damage spells, what would you say a Favored Soul specific option should look like? And a further Divine option in general?

That is the problem with making SLA targeted feats. If these feats just improved all spells of an element then they would be useable by more than 1 class. I still think you would be better off adding +Xd6 elemental damage to all spells of an element. Or you could just make it a toggle that adds Xd6 of that elemental damage to all of your offensive damage spells (per cast not per projectile).

Maybe the master of feats exclude each other so you can only pick one.
Master of Fire: Toggle, your offensive damage spells inflict an extra 5d6 fire damage. You also gain 10 fire spell power and 10% fire critical damage.

That is useful to a lot more people than sorcerers....
That improves your meteor swarm, delayed blast fireball, flame strike, and scorching ray in addition to the sorcerer SLA spells....

[Silverleafeon]

That's a fair point.

Given that these are primarily themed around SLAs and low-cost commonly-cast damage spells, what would you say a Favored Soul specific option should look like? And a further Divine option in general?

Thank you for listening.

Ok looking at the two options I see, either we get multiple choices for a class with only three spells boosted or we get one choice for a class with four spells boosted.

I will be greedy and choose for Cleric one choice with four spells boosted (as you mentioned they must be SLAs or Low cost spells.

Then I will choose for Favored Soul also the same choice of four spells boosted (as you mentioned they must be SLAs or Low cost spells.

First the Cleric choice, and I see someone has already written out a very nice version which includes a nice boost to divine at a moment when they need it, and it does pretty well helping Favored Souls too:

Steel here is a copy of my previous post ...

Here are my suggestion(s) and some reasons why. I do not believe as you have stated that every aspect of every feat should be equal for all feats that apply to all classes, PrEs, etc. However, I do believe that you are giving a spell casting bump and the most bang for one's buck is to give it the SLA's at a minimum and other spells that are worthy but not overly powerful. Here are 2 options ...

Option 1: One great feat

Master of Light (or Radiance or Vengeance or whatever you want to call it): Your Sunbolt, Searing Light, Holy Smite, and Flame Strike have no maximum caster level

- Sunbolt and Searing Light can be SLA's for FVS (Avenger capstone), Sunbolt can be SLA for both Clerics and FVS via Exalted Angel, Holy Smite and Flame Strike are SLAs for Clerics and can be powerful for FVS considering the Angel of Vengeance PrE. Thus there is good balance for both classes with regards to SLAs. Remember that Sunbolt and Searing Light SLA for FVS capstone use NO spell points and thus will be nicely balanced for FVS as the other SLAs for clerics here use some amount of spell points.

I realize that is a strong request, but each spell listed does fit into the SLA category for a Cleric (Exalted Angel for the Sunbolt) and it is four good choices.



Moving on to Favored Soul options:

Favored Souls have Cure Light Wounds, Searing Light, and Sunbolt as their main available SLA, however they only can receive one of these.
A Favored Soul interested in Light would very likely chose the choice listed above.
Favored Souls lack the third tree which makes a bit of mystery here.
We also want to make this choice definitely different.

I often Cast Order's Wrath as a Favored Soul, so I will start with that, its an effect crowd control spell that lack enough damage.
I will add Holy Smite as its in the same category.
Since Order's Wrath does not affect Chaotic Foes, I will add Chaos Hammer to the group.
Lastly I will go with Deific Vengeance as it is also a low cost spell with the option of upgrading to Flame Strike.
So, three cheap level four spells, along with a cheap level two spell/cleric SLA level five.
All of these spells share a common theme of causing alignment damage.


So the Favored Soul could be:

Master of Alignment
Order's Wrath, Holy Smite, Chaos Hammer, and Flame Strike

However this brings us to the point that we already included two of those spell already, so relooking at

Master of Light
Searing Light, Sunbolt, Sunburst, and Divine Punishment

{Does Nimbus of Light have a max level? If it does would that be a bug?}


Which interestingly look a lot like the other half of this post:

Option 2: 2 pretty good feats

Master of Light: Your Sunbolt, Searing Light, and Divine Punishment have no maximum caster level

Master of Alignment (or whatever you want to call it): Your Holy Smite, Flame Strike, (unsure of last spell(s) but could use Deific Vengeance vs/and/or Chaos Hammer/Order's Wrath/Unholy Blight)

- Master of light would now include Divine Punishment (nice and really only DOT that divines have in their spell list similar to how you included creeping cold/niacs for the other masters' feats) and Master of Alignment while only having 2 SLAs (and both for clerics) have a nice abundance of alignment spells. Thus FVS could choose either feat (or both at the appropriate levels) and same with Clerics depending on their build. Thus more versatility.

And of course all this must include a reference to blade barrier and comet fall...

My last caveat is, I can understand why you didn't include Blade Barrier or Cometfall in these are they may seem too powerful, but the balance to this is that if you did include these in some fashion, then the fact that they are not SLAs anywhere would usually minimize how many metamagics are applied as they would be too costly and thus increasing their max caster level could be a feasible solution

Yeah they are powerful, fully unleased would be quite something...

[Kompera_Oberon]

That's a fair point.

Given that these are primarily themed around SLAs and low-cost commonly-cast damage spells, what would you say a Favored Soul specific option should look like? And a further Divine option in general?

For Clerics/Favored Souls in particular, pulling the max level off of Blade Barrier (max level 15) and Divine Punishment (max level 20) would be good.

Those are two bread-and-butter (commonly cast, to use your phrasing) spells that simply undergo a retrograde scaling in epic levels: They stop gaining more damage dice, and monsters gain a lot more hit points.

My last caveat is, I can understand why you didn't include Blade Barrier or Cometfall in these are they may seem too powerful, but the balance to this is that if you did include these in some fashion, then the fact that they are not SLAs anywhere would usually minimize how many metamagics are applied as they would be too costly and thus increasing their max caster level could be a feasible solution

Neither Blade Barrier nor Cometfall are "too powerful" in epic content. Both stop gaining damage dice in heroic content, and Cometfall in particular is spell costed for its secondary knockdown effect which is nearly useless in low level epics and completely useless in higher level epics. Casters using either of these spells are not likely to be DC focused and therefore they will be doing half (or none vs. foes with evasion) damage to every opponent.

[Jiirix]

Neither Blade Barrier nor Cometfall are "too powerful" in epic content. Both stop gaining damage dice in heroic content, and Cometfall in particular is spell costed for its secondary knockdown effect which is nearly useless in low level epics and completely useless in higher level epics. Casters using either of these spells are not likely to be DC focused and therefore they will be doing half (or none vs. foes with evasion) damage to every opponent.

I think Cometfall would be a solid option that won't be out of line withe the other spells that get uncapped, but I think Blade Barrier could easily become to powerful because it is a persitant AOE spell you can use while kiting. Comet fall on the other hand has only a small instant AOE and that it is boosted by cleric past lives gives it a nice touch I think.

[LiquidZombie]

Regarding the sorcerer-versus-wizard imbalance, would this be solved by changing the feats so that instead of un-capping the spells entirely, they just set the cap equal to your character level?

This would allow both sorcs and wizards to gain from casting the spells at an epic level, but sorcs wouldn't gain a massive advantage due to the extra CLs provided by heroic enhancements.

But perhaps this would suck for some other reason that I haven't considered.

[Silverleafeon]

For Clerics/Favored Souls in particular, pulling the max level off of Blade Barrier (max level 15) and Divine Punishment (max level 20) would be good.

Those are two bread-and-butter (commonly cast, to use your phrasing) spells that simply undergo a retrograde scaling in epic levels: They stop gaining more damage dice, and monsters gain a lot more hit points.



Neither Blade Barrier nor Cometfall are "too powerful" in epic content. Both stop gaining damage dice in heroic content, and Cometfall in particular is spell costed for its secondary knockdown effect which is nearly useless in low level epics and completely useless in higher level epics. Casters using either of these spells are not likely to be DC focused and therefore they will be doing half (or none vs. foes with evasion) damage to every opponent.

Compromise, allow the now weak Divine Punishment benefits?
Half your request?

I think Cometfall would be a solid option that won't be out of line withe the other spells that get uncapped, but I think Blade Barrier could easily become to powerful because it is a persitant AOE spell you can use while kiting. Comet fall on the other hand has only a small instant AOE and that it is boosted by cleric past lives gives it a nice touch I think.

Good point.


I have to ask Steel, do you want Cometfall as a capstone/tier five for the 3rd Favored Soul tree?
Costs 15 sp, 12 second cooldown?

If so, this unlocks the SLA requirement for the Favored Soul option and tilts the table.
If no, then maybe Order's Wrath/Chaos Hammer/Defiact Veng for a Favored Soul SLA 3rd tree option?

[bloodnose13]

bit of thoughts on the topic

---------------------------------------------------------
//i dont understadn why do we need those 2 metamagics, there is too many of them already, if anything they should be just passive upgades of the existing metamagics, also how to understand affected by empower? (means that it can affect spells that support empower OR that it requires empower to be active to apply?) adding more metamagics that will make casters use even more sp per spell is not realy a good idea, and in my opinion ddo should go other way, limit how many metamagics can be used at once and make each of them unique and powerful in its own way.
[*]Intensify Spell

• METAMAGIC: +75 Spell Power, spells cost +25SP. Works on any spell affected by Empower.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
//it should be a passive upgrade to heighen.
[*]Embolden Spell

• METAMAGIC: +2 DCs to all spells with DCs. +10SP. Affects spells

--------------------------------------------------------------
//this is something that should be done through enchancement changes in wizard/sorc trees and not as a feat.
[*]Master of Air

• Your Shocking Grasp, Electric Loop, and Lightning Bolt spells no longer have a maximum caster level.

[*]Master of Earth

• Your Acid Spray, Acid Arrow, and Acid Blast spells no longer have a maximum caster level.

[*]Master of Water

• Your Cold Ray, Snowball Swarm, and Niac's Biting Cold spells no longer have a maximum caster level.

[*]Master of Fire

• Your Burning Hands, Scorch, and Fireball spells no longer have a maximum caster level.

[*]Master of the Dead

• Your Chill Touch, Necrotic Ray, and Negative Energy Burst spells no longer have a maximum caster level.

[*]Master of Light

• Your Sun Bolt, Searing Light, and Sunburst spells no longer have a maximum caster level.

[*]Master of Artifice

• Your Static Shock, Lightning Sphere, Blast Rod, and Lightning Motes spells no longer have a maximum caster level.

[*]Master of the Wilds

• Your Produce Flame, Creeping Cold, Call Lightning, and Word of Balance spells no longer have a maximum caster level.

[*]Master of Music

• Your Shout, Greater Shout, Sonic Blast, and Reveberate spells no longer have a maximum caster level.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

//from what i tried on lammania, it does not work, unless it does not have effect icon, one more thing of my concern is the universal spell power, at the level we gain this feat everyone is probably haveing a +150 spell power item, if i remember correctly universal does not stack with focused (fire, force, cold etc) spell power effects, since this feat boosts crit damage then maybe it could raise crit chance too instead of spell power.
[*]Master of Knowledge

• Your Arcane Bolt and Arcane Blast spells now grant you one stack of Mental Honing (+3 Universal Spell Power, +2% Spell Crit Damage) when cast. This effect can stack up to 30 times. One stack is removed every 6 seconds.

[/LIST]

//so we will have two ruins? what we need is a power boost for spells that we have already, so instead of useing only ruin, hellball and sla, we actualy use the spells we have and used them all over heroic levels, instead we are being tunneled towards sla only type of casters. if anything those caster feats should be added to the game after caster enchancement pass and not before.

New ML30 General Feat:

• Greater Ruin
  
  • Requires Ruin.
  • Deals 1000 untyped damage to a single enemy (no saving throw). Costs 150 SP

[btolson]

...i dont understadn why do we need those 2 metamagics, there is too many of them already, if anything they should be just passive upgades of the existing metamagics, ...

I think that's actually an excellent suggestion.

[Faltout]

That's a fair point.

Given that these are primarily themed around SLAs and low-cost commonly-cast damage spells, what would you say a Favored Soul specific option should look like? And a further Divine option in general?

Why are these only themed around SLAs? For example, fireball gets no max level treatment but delayed blast fireball doesn't, even if it costs more and has the same damage dice (only difference being the MCL).
Or niac's cold ray vs. polar ray (polar ray having less damage dice, but being better than niac's due to MCL).

You are creating an imbalance of spells. As I see it, you have 2 options:
- Uncap all spells of that element
- Uncap all the other spells that have the same or a bit more damage dice with the ones you proposed. SLAs aside, lower level spells should not deal more damage than a higher level SIMILAR spell.

Please do not make the mistake of focusing only on SLAs (as the easy way to add damage without increasing cost). We like the spell list and want to see more spells added, not obliterate all spellcasting in epics (unless it's an SLA).

As for fvs, remember they get bonuses to actual spell casting, not SLAs. If you include other spells as well, fvs would have more options.

[LiquidZombie]

Why are these only themed around SLAs? For example, fireball gets no max level treatment but delayed blast fireball doesn't, even if it costs more and has the same damage dice (only difference being the MCL).
Or niac's cold ray vs. polar ray (polar ray having less damage dice, but being better than niac's due to MCL).

In my opinion, the highest-level spells of each element that cost at least 20 SP (Delayed Blast Fireball, Polar Ray, Ottiluke's, Chain Lightning etc) should have their caps removed with or without these feats. These spells were presumably introduced when the level cap was 20 or 25, and they should be increased to match the new level cap because there aren't any higher-level spells available. This would mean that the uncapped Fireball would still do the same damage as DBF, but it would have a lower DC and a correspondingly lower cost.

Niac's Cold Ray and Polar Ray can't really be compared because although an uncapped NCR would do huge damage, it allows a reflex save which totally negates its damage, and as a level 1 spell it will be saved against a lot unless heightened (which will make it cost 44 SP, or over 2 Polar Rays). Polar Ray on the other hand does not allow a save at all, so will still be worth using in epic levels especially if it is uncapped too.

[maddong]

Yeah it feels wrong to be using level 1 spells instead of polar ray. The feats should at least improve some "best of" spells and not just SLAs.

If spells are too pricey increase the mana discount for damage spells.

[RobbinB]

Intensify Spell

• METAMAGIC: +75 Spell Power, spells cost +25SP. Works on any spell affected by Empower.

This is absolutely what we don't need. This just makes the no-cost sla's even more powerful. I don't see how this feat would not be mandatory on my Warlock. We need tough choices, not more overwhelming criticals and blinding speeds.

Maybe consider going the opposite way, making an Efficient Empower/Maximize feat. Does nothing for sla's since they are free, but reduces the spell point cost of using Empower by (eg.) 2 and Maximize by (eg.)4. (So my Warlock would ignore the feat but many Sorcs might consider it very valuable.)

Alternatively, make it applicable only to spells with an SP cost, ie not SLA's.

[Kompera_Oberon]

I think Cometfall would be a solid option that won't be out of line withe the other spells that get uncapped, but I think Blade Barrier could easily become to powerful because it is a persitant AOE spell you can use while kiting. Comet fall on the other hand has only a small instant AOE and that it is boosted by cleric past lives gives it a nice touch I think.

Ok, 3 Cleric past lives give +3 DC to Conjuration (I don't have them, but that's beside the point), but other than Cometfall there's no compelling reason for a cleric to focus on boosting Conjuration DCs. So the +3 is really just window dressing in the current environment of "go huge or go home" DC casting. It won't accomplish anything for the Cleric whose past lives earned the bonus. It's far more useful for a Warlock, for example.

I can't recall the last time Cometfall actually knocked anything over for me in level appropriate epic content. And I don't run EE except when grouped because I can't. Not absolutely can't, when I'm at 28th I can solo about 4 level 20 or 21 EEs. Slowly and painfully. So effectively can't. Cometfall is a spell I will chain with Fire Storm when I've got a pile of mobs stacked up and I have mana to spare before the next shrine (or it's close and I can afford to waste it on high cost, low effect spells). It's also a way to watch a blue hexagon appear over the head of every single mob as they make their saves vs. the knockdown.

Regarding Blade Barrier, gee it's not a bad thing for a Cleric or a Favored Soul to have an effective AOE, is it? You know, bring back that "wow" factor you felt when you hit 11th level and could first cast Blade Barrier? I mean, there's plenty of other examples out there for other classes: Earthquake, Evard's Grasping Tentacles, Ice Storm, Sleet Storm, Wall of Fire, Cloudkill, Death Aura, etc. All of those are persistent AOE spells you can use while kiting, except for Death Aura which moves with the caster.

Right now Blade Barrier caps at level 15 and thus starts providing diminishing benefits from 16th through 28th level content. And it has a DC save for half damage which the vast majority of Clerics or FvS will not have pushed high enough, if at all, to matter. Plus it is a Reflex save and so is doubly ineffective against foes with evasion. That makes it very costly for very little damage in epic content. Unlocking the level would only give it another 9d6 at the proposed 24th level where you could select the feat, plus 1d6 per level until cap. Still save for half damage, evade for none. And at level 24 the monsters have gained a whole lot more than 9d6 hit points (even scaling with Force spell power, which isn't a top spell power type for Clerics or FvS), so I'm not seeing any real problem with unlocking this spell.

[EllisDee37]

Maybe consider going the opposite way, making an Efficient Empower/Maximize feat. Does nothing for sla's since they are free, but reduces the spell point cost of using Empower by (eg.) 2 and Maximize by (eg.)4. (So my Warlock would ignore the feat but many Sorcs might consider it very valuable.)

I like where you're going with that. As a high level epic feat, have it apply to all metamagics. Then, have it either be equivalent to tier 1 enhancements (stacking), tier 2 enhancements (stacking), or tier 3 enhancements (non-stacking).

Efficient Metamagics
You are able to use your metamagics more efficiently:
Empower costs 2 fewer Spell Points.
Maximize costs 3 fewer Spell Points.
Quicken, Enlarge, Extend and Empower Healing Spell cost 1 fewer Spell Point.
Heighten costs you 1 fewer Spell Point per heightened level.
Eschew Materials costs 1 fewer Spell Point.

...or...

Efficient Metamagics
You are able to use your metamagics more efficiently:
Empower costs 4 fewer Spell Points.
Maximize costs 6 fewer Spell Points.
Quicken, Enlarge, Extend and Empower Healing Spell cost 2 fewer Spell Points.
Heighten costs you 2 fewer Spells Point per heightened level.
Eschew Materials costs 0 Spell Points.

...or...

Efficient Metamagics
You are able to use your metamagics more efficiently. This does not stack with enhancements.
Empower costs 6 fewer Spell Points.
Maximize costs 9 fewer Spell Points.
Quicken, Enlarge, Extend and Empower Healing Spell cost 4 fewer Spell Points.
Heighten costs you 2 fewer Spells Point per heightened level.
Eschew Materials costs 0 Spell Points.

The last version would save you 19 spell points per cast for quickened+empowered+maximized spells, +2 per level if Heightened. Plus it could possibly free up some AP from your enhancement trees.

EDIT: Other options would be to have the feat simply make all metamagics free, or give all metamagics the equivalent of full efficient enhancements plus full efficient gear effects, not stacking with either enhancements or gear. (So each metamagic gets two types of bonuses to efficiency from the feat.)

[QuantumFX]

Steelstar, can we get an epic rune arm feat that adds your epic level to your artificer caster level on rune arms?

[maddong]

This is absolutely what we don't need. This just makes the no-cost sla's even more powerful. I don't see how this feat would not be mandatory on my Warlock. We need tough choices, not more overwhelming criticals and blinding speeds.

Maybe consider going the opposite way, making an Efficient Empower/Maximize feat. Does nothing for sla's since they are free, but reduces the spell point cost of using Empower by (eg.) 2 and Maximize by (eg.)4. (So my Warlock would ignore the feat but many Sorcs might consider it very valuable.)

Alternatively, make it applicable only to spells with an SP cost, ie not SLA's.

Just do automatic maximize. Makes it free.

[Tlorrd]

well as there are some SLAs for both FVS and Cleric and some spells added to divine disciple ... here are a list of spells that should be added in some form or another to masters feats. Also if there is some cross over of spells between feats, that should be OK because unlike savants, there are only two main main divine caster classes (outside of druid) and those are divine disciple cleric and angel of vengeance FVS. Also the number of offensive divine spells is much less than wiz/sorc and thus we even though SLAs are different for both cleric and fvs, they can benefit from the added versatility of some spell crossover between feats.

Divine spells to unlock caster level:

Searing Light
Sunbolt
Holy Smite
Flame Strike
Divine Punishment
Sunburst
Word of Balance (if you're going to unlock Sunburst, you might as well unlock this for DD, and I know Sunburst can also be obtained by Sun-elf)
Blade Barrier
Cometfall
Order's Wrath
Chaos Hammer
Unholy Blight
Deific Vengeance