Update 29 Feats: Other Feats

[Trillea]

Question,does the master X feat influence SLA?thx~

Yes they influence SLAs according to some of the prior posts. Never explicitly stated but heavily alluded to.

[maddong]

Hey, folks.

Wanted to let you know, we are planning to add 1-2 more "Master of..." feats targeted at Divines. No exact details for those yet, but you have provided some good feedback here that'll likely influence our direction.

We are also planning to change the "Master of..." feats from those spells "no longer having a Maximum Caster Level" to granting "+10 to the Maximum Caster Level". For almost all characters, that doesn't change the damage you'll be doing with those spells in U29. It also keeps existing abilities that boost Maximum Caster Level relevant.

Sounds good. It sucks they are essentially SLA feats though.

How about narrowing the gap between SLAs and non SLAs though? Have some means of making max/emp free (automatic maximize/automatic empower as feats). One option would be to change intensify spell to a level 27 feat (an alternative to the ruin/greater ruin track). Make intensify spell cost 0 mana and have it also reduce your max/emp costs to 0 mana (300 spell power for 0 mana if you have all 3 feats).

That would close the gap between SLAs and non SLAs in efficiency. It would also give an alternative choice to the many people that are going to do ruin at 27, greater ruin at 30.

Not everyone wants to spam burning hands at high level....

[tigerfunlei]

Yep, I flipped the numbers in my example. Sorry about that, it's what I get for multitasking this much on a day like today.

This post's math checks out, but we're still planning on sticking to 10 for the time being. There may still be ways to extend MCLs in the future.

Tome of Max Caster Level +1 available now in the ddo store!!! 2795 TPs!!!!!!1!!

[Nadion]

I don't really like that the devs seem to have adopted a theory that casters should be relying heavily on SLA versions of lowish level spells as there main source of DPS.

Competent SP management should be a skill casters develop. Buffing SLAs to this extent will undermine that.

It's also kind of silly that this will mean that low level spells will become stronger than higher level spells. Fireball will be stronger than Delayed Blast Fireball etc.

Implementing this will make actual spells unappealing to cast, except as something to throw whilst SLAs cooldown. High levels spells should be the primary source of DPS, with SLAs mixed in to help manage SP.

Why not just make it +5 MCL to all spells of a particular element? Or if it has to be for specific spells, mix in higher level spells that don't have SLA versions, perhaps 1 low level SLA + 2 higher level spells.

e.g.

Fire: Scorch, Firewall, Delayed Blast Fireball

Ice: Snowball Swarm ,Otilukes, Polar Ray

Acid: Acid Arrow, Acid Rain, Dragon Bolt

Electric: Electric Loop, Ball Lightning, Chain Lightning

[UurlockYgmeov]

Hey, folks.

Wanted to let you know, we are planning to add 1-2 more "Master of..." feats targeted at Divines. No exact details for those yet, but you have provided some good feedback here that'll likely influence our direction.

We are also planning to change the "Master of..." feats from those spells "no longer having a Maximum Caster Level" to granting "+10 to the Maximum Caster Level". For almost all characters, that doesn't change the damage you'll be doing with those spells in U29. It also keeps existing abilities that boost Maximum Caster Level relevant.

sweet!

now just need the uber-rainbow (aka 'skittles') feat!

[Portalcat]

Hey, folks.

Wanted to let you know, we are planning to add 1-2 more "Master of..." feats targeted at Divines. No exact details for those yet, but you have provided some good feedback here that'll likely influence our direction.

We are also planning to change the "Master of..." feats from those spells "no longer having a Maximum Caster Level" to granting "+10 to the Maximum Caster Level". For almost all characters, that doesn't change the damage you'll be doing with those spells in U29. It also keeps existing abilities that boost Maximum Caster Level relevant.

This seems like a sizeable nerf. For many if not most of these spells (which are largely capped at level 10), it means that they benefit from 5 fewer caster levels, since most casters will have up to 20 from heroic levels + 5 from epic destiny innate caster levels. Max level 20 versus 25 is a sizeable difference.

Were you really so concerned about the damage that an uncapped Melf's Acid Arrow or Niac's Cold Ray was doing that you needed to shave 20% off it, much less everything someone could get with equipment that raises caster level? Are we waaaay underestimating how good these feats are?





Elemental DPS looks a whole lot less exciting when you only double the damage. The DPS is pitiful to begin with. AoE spells that do double this damage across enemies don't get used because because the damage is still pitiful.

Crazy that something could be so bad that doubling it isn't enough, but seriously, why am I going to want to build an elemental caster over a Shiradi sorc if the damage is capped at "not enough"? It needs to be able to compete with stuff like Shiradi + Meteor Swarm and Shiradi + MM/Force Missles/Chain missiles, which so outclass Delayed Blast Fireball that it's not worth weaving it in. I'm supposed to get excited by a regular fireball now doing as much damage as delayed blast fireball? All this is an aside to the fact that Shiradi arcane builds have been eclipsed by Warlock DPS, especially with rampant fire immunity in the current endgame.

[Jasparion]

I don't really like that the devs seem to have adopted a theory that casters should be relying heavily on SLA versions of lowish level spells as there main source of DPS.

Competent SP management should be a skill casters develop. Buffing SLAs to this extent will undermine that.

It's also kind of silly that this will mean that low level spells will become stronger than higher level spells. Fireball will be stronger than Delayed Blast Fireball etc.

Implementing this will make actual spells unappealing to cast, except as something to throw whilst SLAs cooldown. High levels spells should be the primary source of DPS, with SLAs mixed in to help manage SP.

Why not just make it +5 MCL to all spells of a particular element? Or if it has to be for specific spells, mix in higher level spells that don't have SLA versions, perhaps 1 low level SLA + 2 higher level spells.

e.g.

Fire: Scorch, Firewall, Delayed Blast Fireball

Ice: Snowball Swarm ,Otilukes, Polar Ray

Acid: Acid Arrow, Acid Rain, Dragon Bolt

Electric: Electric Loop, Ball Lightning, Chain Lightning

Zero cost spells doing the bulk of the DPS is how D&D 5e works, so I can understand it. Saying that MCL is going to work a particular way because "x", then being told that "x" doesnt add up, then responding "you are correct, I got x wrong, but it is still going to work the way I said" is a little more concerning.

MCL is really the big thing holding back DPS casters. It really needs to be done properly.

In the same way that DC sources is the big thing holding back insta-kill, charm, control, etc. builds (though making all the mobs immune to everything and hitting like trucks encouraging everyone to just play some sort of FOTM ranged build is a MUCH bigger problem).

[Zakharov]

I don't really like that the devs seem to have adopted a theory that casters should be relying heavily on SLA versions of lowish level spells as there main source of DPS.

Competent SP management should be a skill casters develop. Buffing SLAs to this extent will undermine that.

It's also kind of silly that this will mean that low level spells will become stronger than higher level spells. Fireball will be stronger than Delayed Blast Fireball etc.

Implementing this will make actual spells unappealing to cast, except as something to throw whilst SLAs cooldown. High levels spells should be the primary source of DPS, with SLAs mixed in to help manage SP.

Why not just make it +5 MCL to all spells of a particular element? Or if it has to be for specific spells, mix in higher level spells that don't have SLA versions, perhaps 1 low level SLA + 2 higher level spells.

e.g.

Fire: Scorch, Firewall, Delayed Blast Fireball

Ice: Snowball Swarm ,Otilukes, Polar Ray

Acid: Acid Arrow, Acid Rain, Dragon Bolt

Electric: Electric Loop, Ball Lightning, Chain Lightning

Agree completely - SLAs should never be the main source of damage. Specialization in an element should provide benefit to *all* spells of that element, not just SLAs.

[Portalcat]

MCL is really the big thing holding back DPS casters. It really needs to be done properly.

+1.

You know what doesn't have a maximum caster level anchor? Shiradi DPS. That's why you can put it as an engine into just about every caster build split.

You know what also doesn't have a maximum caster level anchor? Draconic Incarnation Energy Burst. This is the big reason Draconic Incarnation savants have ever been a thing. This is why it's one of the only things DC casters can justify dropping a point of DC to take it.

[Tlorrd]

Yep, I flipped the numbers in my example. Sorry about that, it's what I get for multitasking this much on a day like today.

This post's math checks out, but we're still planning on sticking to 10 for the time being. There may still be ways to extend MCLs in the future.

Steel with all due respect ... and correct me if I'm wrong, but now you are saying that yes what you're doing is a big nerf (from what you initially proposed) but you're doing it anyways.

I'm totally disappointed. Some spells that may be included in the list sometimes only give additional damage every 2 caster levels thus adding +10 MCL is only giving +5 caster levels for those spells (I'm thinking of certain divine spells).

Forumites: Lost in the banter of trying to state your desire to uncap or expand all spells for more usage ... now not only are select spells not getting uncapped, but you have minimal improvement for only select spells. Double wammy of getting taken by the man.

So much for the excitement of the caster pass. Seems like Warlock with the new feats are the way to go. Definitely losing interest in going back to caster. I actually was excited for a few days there.

[Silverleafeon]

Before this all started, I was pressing for a +8 mcl increase (maybe in the form of a metamagic or the like), so I am happy with +10
{Perhaps with this limit in place we can expand the choice of spells?}

On another note, unlimited max caster levels present a serious threat of closing down of the possibility of increasing ED's levels from 5 to 10.
{Yes, I know, no one (including the Devs) mentions this but me, but I still think its an important concept to consider following thru on the initial development design of EDs}

Requesting an end game item to increase MCL by +2, and I am assuming the Favored Soul/Draconic/Savant MCL increases will stack with the Master of ____ feat group.

[knightgf]

A few things related to this:

• We aren't planning on using these feats to change the caster level of anything that creates extra projectiles, including Frost Lance. Sorry!

Here's the catch about this: It adds to the pile of non-viable spells at epic levels. And that's something you don't want, considering the lack of content at epic levels compared to heroic levels. Projectile spells such as Scorching Ray and Frost Lance are special because they deviate from most standard spells of it's type, Scorching Ray has no save if it hits, while Frost Lance uses fortitude saves instead of reflex to deal damage. By eliminating these type of spells, you restrict the options casters have vs. epic mobs, and that's something you don't want.

In addition, it may be true that right now, we may not be able to take advantage of a +10 maximum caster level bonus for spells of various types. But that's in the present; in the future, you may have more feats, enhancements, item bonuses, spell/potion bonuses, epic destiny enhancements, levels higher than 30 and many more options to boost the caster levels of various types of spells, both in general and in specific schools/elements. Building for the future is a good thing; to not build for the future is to throw away your investments. Don't put your back to the future of the game with this cap; stick with your original plan of no maximum caster levels to spells and try to cover more spells if you can. More spells = more gameplay options = a better game.

[maddong]

Here's the catch about this: It adds to the pile of non-viable spells at epic levels. And that's something you don't want, considering the lack of content at epic levels compared to heroic levels. Projectile spells such as Scorching Ray and Frost Lance are special because they deviate from most standard spells of it's type, Scorching Ray has no save if it hits, while Frost Lance uses fortitude saves instead of reflex to deal damage. By eliminating these type of spells, you restrict the options casters have vs. epic mobs, and that's something you don't want.

In addition, it may be true that right now, we may not be able to take advantage of a +10 maximum caster level bonus for spells of various types. But that's in the present; in the future, you may have more feats, enhancements, item bonuses, spell/potion bonuses, epic destiny enhancements, levels higher than 30 and many more options to boost the caster levels of various types of spells, both in general and in specific schools/elements. Building for the future is a good thing; to not build for the future is to throw away your investments. Don't put your back to the future of the game with this cap; stick with your original plan of no maximum caster levels to spells and try to cover more spells if you can. More spells = more gameplay options = a better game.

What about adding in something where for every caster level the spell is cast at past the max caster level you get an additional +X spell power (to the main element excluding shiradi procs)? It isn't much but it lets you give something to spells where the level has a low cap. So if x=2 and you cast scorching ray at level 31 you gain 40 extra spell power. That isn't as good for 11/6/3 shiradi builds as it is for a level 20 high caster level build.

[Nandos]

If they are adding some more divine feats, I could see them adding:

Master of (Inflict Wounds spells)

and

Master of (alignment themed spells) which could include Deific Vengeance, Holy Smite and its variants, and possibly Flame Strike (spell does partial divine) or Word of Balance

[Silverleafeon]

Sun Bolt

Description:
A powerful bolt of light deals 5 to 8 light damage per caster level (up to a max of 75 to 120 damage at caster level 15) to targets in its path. A successful Reflex save reduces the damage by half. D&D Dice: Deals 1d4+4 light damage per caster level (max 15d4+60).

Favored Souls:
Increases from caster level 15 to 25 (Pure in EA ED) = 66% increase in dps
Add Favored Soul tier 5 increase to caster level 28 = 13/15 increase in dps
Add Gauntlets of the Arcane Soldier which only affects arcane spells = zero change

Clerics:
Increases from caster level 15 to 25 (Pure in EA ED) = 66% increase in dps
Add Divine Disciple tier 5 increase to caster level 26 = 11/15 increase in dps
Add Gauntlets of the Arcane Soldier which only affects arcane spells = zero change




;;;;;

Suppose?

Divine Punishment
Description:
Focuses the power of the gods upon the target, inflicting 1d6 +1 light damage every 2 seconds (no initial tic) for a duration of 16 seconds (at CL1). This damage scales by +1 per caster level light damage up to a maximum 1d6+20 at caster level 20.

This spell can stack on the target up to 3 times, increasing the damage with each stack. Once the third stack is active, the spell will be doing an incredible 3d6+60 damage (at CL20) and display a far more impressive pulsating graphic on the affected enemy.




Max Caster level is increased to 30
Pure with EA ED = caster level 25

Angel of Vengence tier 5 will increase +3 caster level and +3 max caster level
Divine Disciple tier 5 will increase +1 caster level and +1 max caster level
{Neither one of these changes the +5 below max caster level although they do increase DPS.}

Greater Might of the Abishai = 3 Item version: Profane Natural Armor Bonus +3, Profane Strength +3, Evocation Caster Level Bonus +3
{This, I believe would result in the caster level being 2 below max caster level, at the expense of wearing level 20 gear in three slots for endgame..}


Gauntlets of the Arcane Soldier

This affects arcane spells, certainly not divine.
{No effect.}

[Jiirix]

Hey, folks.

Wanted to let you know, we are planning to add 1-2 more "Master of..." feats targeted at Divines. No exact details for those yet, but you have provided some good feedback here that'll likely influence our direction.

We are also planning to change the "Master of..." feats from those spells "no longer having a Maximum Caster Level" to granting "+10 to the Maximum Caster Level". For almost all characters, that doesn't change the damage you'll be doing with those spells in U29. It also keeps existing abilities that boost Maximum Caster Level relevant.

I will stay tuned for the divine Master of.. feats.

If you don't uncap the Maximum Caster Level of SLAs why not make the Master of.. feats "+ x MCL to ALL spells of an energy type" ? Perhaps scaling a bit with levels: +5 to MCL to one energy type at level 24 and an other stacking +5 to MCL for at total bonus of +10 at level 28. That might even fix epic DPS spell casting and leaving only DC spell casting "on the table".

[1Soulless1]

Yep, I flipped the numbers in my example. Sorry about that, it's what I get for multitasking this much on a day like today.

This post's math checks out, but we're still planning on sticking to 10 for the time being. There may still be ways to extend MCLs in the future.

So basically the TLR version is; I messed up on the numbers, and this is really a nerf, you know its a nerf we know its a nerf. We are not changing it. BTW hearts of all kind and xp pots will be in sale the same weak this drops. So will old raid bypass timers.

May the silver flame guide you.

[janave]

It has to go to eleven.

But seriously, 10 seems to be on the low end for Savants and Favored Souls, 12+ or uncap please!
Both of the ^ classes have been ripped apart by Warlocks so i think its not a big strech to allow them to shine that little bit more.

[Lorianus]

Yep, I flipped the numbers in my example. Sorry about that, it's what I get for multitasking this much on a day like today.

This post's math checks out, but we're still planning on sticking to 10 for the time being. There may still be ways to extend MCLs in the future.

Epic spellcasting should be like heroic spellcasting in my opinion: Powerful but not usable non-stop because limited by spell points. You have to choose WHEN to cast your spells, but when you do they should hit hard and not FAIL you most of the time. On the one hand DDO has this "HP and SP don't regenerate” mechanic that makes this game more interesting than others where errors just slow you down because everything regenerates over time. And instead of working with this mechanic in epics (limed use but powerful effects) we get lame low level spells we can use like a ranged weapon. How about that: Epic Spellcasting Feats: No MCL but longer cooldown, +10 to DC but cost X% more SP. "Observe.. wait.. strike.. " should at last be an option and not only "spam away until something happens".

[Tlorrd]

Epic spellcasting should be like heroic spellcasting in my opinion: Powerful but not usable non-stop because limited by spell points. You have to choose WHEN to cast your spells, but when you do they should hit hard and not FAIL you most of the time. On the one hand DDO has this "HP and SP don't regenerate” mechanic that makes this game more interesting than others where errors just slow you down because everything regenerates over time. And instead of working with this mechanic in epics (limed use but powerful effects) we get lame low level spells we can use like a ranged weapon. How about that: Epic Spellcasting Feats: No MCL but longer cooldown, +10 to DC but cost X% more SP. "Observe.. wait.. strike.. " should at last be an option and not only "spam away until something happens".

In today's game it will be " observe ... wait ... quest is over, your party mates finished for you "