Update 29 Feats: Legendary Feats

[dualscissors]

Is the permanent displacement whole sneaking useful at all? Honest question.

This instantly struck me as an answer to a complaint that appeared heavily on the rogue pass thread - archers and mobs using cleaves break rogue stealth with dumbluck hits.

Even if I'm running with 3 displacement greensteel items, I usually can't justify turning on displacement for regular travel and stealthing. The "displaced automatically if stealthing" ability here goes a long ways to mitigate getting knocked out of stealth by a random arrow or a cleave that wasn't even intended for you.

Granted this means that for 1-29 levels junk shots will still break your stealth.

If the displacement lingered for more than a second or two (say, 10 seconds), I imagine players will munchkin this by toggling stealth every time they catch a breath in a fight so as to keep displacement up.

[LiquidZombie]

The current spellpower split (all negative) is not useful for archmage, warlock and not as useful for most divine necromancers. While I think PMs needed a boost, the devs should remember not all necromancers are PMs.

I don't disagree with this. I interpreted the post I responded to as "Why would any necromancer care about spell power?", including PMs.

Like you, I think the feat should have the same 30/10 spellpower split as the elemental ones, to make it more useful for necromancers that care about DCs while relying on elemental spells for direct damage.

[Hephaistor]

The current spellpower split (all negative) is not useful for archmage, warlock and not as useful for most divine necromancers. While I think PMs needed a boost, the devs should remember not all necromancers are PMs.

My Pale Master is built like this: First goal is to get everything for maximum DC, second goal is to get maximum universal spell power. I have a lot of spare spell slots as a wizard and I can swap spells at every shrine. I go for universal spellpower because I may not get as high on maximal spellpower as non-DC casters can, but I always attack with the best element available. I use spells from all spell schools in boss fights depending on resistances and vulnerabilities.

[count_spicoli]

Necrotic Ray, Finger of Death (negative damage on a successful save), Death Aura and Negative Energy Burst will all benefit from increased spellpower for both damage and healing, and with the additional feat to remove the caster level cap, Chill Touch will also become an option at endgame. Necrotic Ray will also benefit from the +4 DC (it has a fortitude save) along with all of the pure DC instakill abilities.

I for one am looking forward to taking this feat as a necro wizard.

Ya not sure what he is thinking with that statement. This would be a big boost to a necro caster.

[count_spicoli]

The problem I am seeing is that increasingly characters need to be specialized full out in some dimension to reach reasonable levels. These feats very much go in that direction.

Ya but isn't that a good thing. Shouldn't you have to specialize in some area to really be effective. If a dude can have the best ac, the best prr, the best dps, the best at traps, the best casting spell power, what good is that? Wouldn't everyone just play that toon. If you want the best dps you should specialize for it. If you want the best defense you should specialize in it and sacrifice other areas. Same with trapping and so and so on. Maybe this would make the game where people would actually benefit from being in groups instead of everyone just soloing all the time

[bloodnose13]

• Scion of the Ethereal Plane
  
  • Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
  • +1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
  • +2 to all Skills
  • Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect

seems to me like that displacement has marginal use, i would like to suggest changeing it to regeneration effect while sneaking, healed by shadows? and/or effect that would instantly break aggro on turning on sneak.

[sjbb87]

Feasible for rogue and ranger[*]Scion of the Ethereal Plane

• Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
• +1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
• +2 to all Skills
• Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect

[/LIST]
It would be viable for other dps, but this very weak .... Perhaps may serve only to Monk.

• Scion of the Astral Plane
  
  • +4 to Tactical Feat DCs
  • +4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
  • +4% Dodge.
  • +4 to Reflex Saves.

viable for paladin,cleric and fvs
[LIST][*]Scion of Celestia

• +20 Positive, Light, & Alignment Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
• +30% Crit Damage with Positive, Light, & Alignment spells
• +150 Maximum Hit Points
• +4 to Will Saves

viable for other dps

• Scion of Arborea
  
  • +20 Melee and Ranged Power
  • +20 Force Spell Power and +20 Universal Spell Power
  • +2 to the Enhancement Bonus of your weapon
  • +4 to Fortitude Saves

Russian roulette

• Scion of Limbo
  
  • +2 Determination Bonus to all Saves
  • eight buffs, each one minute long. Cycles randomly.
    
    • +40 Melee and Ranged power, +80 Spell Power
    • +16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot, +20% Spell Crit Damage
    • +30 PRR and MRR
    • +20% Dodge and +40 Healing Amp
    • +20 DR /Law
    • Your weapon/unarmed strikes and spells deal 1d20 Chaos Damage
    • Each time you would be damaged, you have a +5% chance to completely ignore the damage. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.
    • Confetti explodes around your shoulders. Festive!

Comments in color
Pls use Scion of Limbo to base:

40 Melee and Ranged power, +80 Spell Power vs 20 Melee and Ranged Power 20 Universal Spell Power(Scion of Arborea)
16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot vs 4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. (Scion of the Astral Plane ,only 4?)
20% Dodge vs +4% Dodge.(Scion of the Astral Plane, only 4)

try to give more options for players

[Nightmanis]

key question right here.
Already INT assassins are behind; this is the death knell (am fine with dex assassins, just saying)

In general I find all these changes to be problematic power creep for players.

Yeah I've already gotten a TOEE Rapier and am working on a TF Rapier. Such dex based Harper rogue.

[Steelstar]

Comments in color
Pls use Scion of Limbo to base:

40 Melee and Ranged power, +80 Spell Power vs 20 Melee and Ranged Power 20 Universal Spell Power(Scion of Arborea)
16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot vs 4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. (Scion of the Astral Plane ,only 4?)
20% Dodge vs +4% Dodge.(Scion of the Astral Plane, only 4)

try to give more options for players

Scion of Limbo intentionally has higher bonuses than the other Legendary Feats. It's powerful, but less predictable.

[CThruTheEgo]

Scion of Limbo intentionally has higher bonuses than the other Legendary Feats. It's powerful, but less predictable.

Any comment on the possibility of adding assassinate DCs to one of these feats?

[CThruTheEgo]

Yeah, casters got passive +6 DC from feats(Scion of the Shadowfell +4 & embolden magic +2), & another situtational +6 DC from lvl 21 feat(Arcane Insight).
Total +12 DC from U29, but 0 for assassinate DC?

I am sure legendary contents will need at least +10 DC from today's build. Even +4 isn't enough.

Good point. I missed the other DC options for casters. And you're probably right. If prior updates are any indication, new level 30+ content mobs will have sky high saves. +10 seems like a bit much, but that really depends on mob saves in new content. +4 does seem too low though, now that you point it out. So I'd be in favor of up to +10 to assassinate DCs. This would also greatly help out newer assassins who don't have top notch gear yet.

[sjbb87]

Scion of Limbo intentionally has higher bonuses than the other Legendary Feats. It's powerful, but less predictable.

OK... but Astral Plane need a buff to more competitive

20 Melee and Ranged Power (Scion of Arborea)
4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot(Scion of the Astral Plane)

Scion of Limbo
40 Melee and Ranged power
16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot


Scion of the Astral Plane
need a buff to 8 ~10 Doublestrike & Doubleshot

none advanced player will choose this feat(except for monks... its ok to monks)

[CThruTheEgo]

This instantly struck me as an answer to a complaint that appeared heavily on the rogue pass thread - archers and mobs using cleaves break rogue stealth with dumbluck hits.

Even if I'm running with 3 displacement greensteel items, I usually can't justify turning on displacement for regular travel and stealthing. The "displaced automatically if stealthing" ability here goes a long ways to mitigate getting knocked out of stealth by a random arrow or a cleave that wasn't even intended for you.

Granted this means that for 1-29 levels junk shots will still break your stealth.

But this isn't how it works. I just tested in game to confirm. Using the assassin in my sig, I ran in shadow dancer with shadow form on and displacement up. Went into 3BC wilderness area, killed all mobs in an area except one archer. I had his agro, went into sneak mode, and let him shoot some arrows at me. All types of miss messages - miss, displaced, dodge, and incorporeal - pulled me out of sneak mode immediately. No damage taken, but I was pulled out of sneak mode. Thus the displacement while sneaking aspect of this feat is useless and does not solve the problem of being pulled out of sneak mode when you didn't get hit.

The best solution here, devs, is to fix this so that a missed hit will not pull you out of sneak mode. But since that probably won't happen, make the displacement from the ethereal feat last for 10 seconds after coming out of sneak mode.

[dualscissors]

key question right here.
Already INT assassins are behind; this is the death knell (am fine with dex assassins, just saying)

In general I find all these changes to be problematic power creep for players.

I'm not sure how interested the Devs are in picking up the old thought from the rogue pass thread from a few months ago about the ~inferiority of INT based vs. DEX based assassins.

I echo CThru's forums comments that DEX based assassins have an overall stronger power level (ie. better defenses with Thief Acrobat, can bump your Assassinate DC up easier, don't need to burn a feat on Insightful Reflexes, synergy of helpless damage - with the only loss being a reduction in Know the Angles).

Hide certainly plays better with DEX based than INT based in that your stat modifier will be derived from Dex in the mid-60s+, instead of mid-30s with an Int build.

INT based assassins could benefit from this Legendary Feat more with something like the bonus coming from the higher between Hide (Dex) or Search (Int).

The flavor for INT/Search might be finding gaps in armor or anatomical precision. Hide bonus damage would be flavored as catching enemies unaware.

[dualscissors]

But this isn't how it works. I just tested in game to confirm. Using the assassin in my sig, I ran in shadow dancer with shadow form on and displacement up. Went into 3BC wilderness area, killed all mobs in an area except one archer. I had his agro, went into sneak mode, and let him shoot some arrows at me. All types of miss messages - miss, displaced, dodge, and incorporeal - pulled me out of sneak mode immediately. No damage taken, but I was pulled out of sneak mode. Thus the displacement while sneaking aspect of this feat is useless and does not solve the problem of being pulled out of sneak mode when you didn't get hit.

The best solution here, devs, is to fix this so that a missed hit will not pull you out of sneak mode. But since that probably won't happen, make the displacement from the ethereal feat last for 10 seconds after coming out of sneak mode.

Thanks for testing. I had thought of this after I posted but will admit that it was never obvious to me from play that misses always pull me out of agro.

Where I have hesitation here is that I would certainly toggle stealth a lot in combat if it meant adding 10 seconds of displacement. Granted this won't work if mobs are hating on your toon specifically, but most often you'll find a lull in a fight to restealth at least for a split second or two. 10 second displacements that came so easy might be OP, no?

[CThruTheEgo]

Where I have hesitation here is that I would certainly toggle stealth a lot in combat if it meant adding 10 seconds of displacement. Granted this won't work if mobs are hating on your toon specifically, but most often you'll find a lull in a fight to restealth at least for a split second or two. 10 second displacements that came so easy might be OP, no?

Well, if you're trying to min/max your potential as an assassin, then you're probably dropping into stealth every 10 seconds anyway because that is the duration of measure the foe. So it's not like you'd be dropping into sneak mode solely for the displacement. Plus, with only 3 greensteel clickies (90% of the time I never use more than 2) and the displacement effect from improved invisibility, properly timed, you can already keep yourself displaced 100% of the time. So I don't see it as any different than the current situation, maybe just a little less micromanagement of clickies and buffs.

EDIT: Besides, Sev said during the rogue revamp that assassin defense is intended to be primarily from damage avoidance rather than damage mitigation, so this would just add to that.

[Maldrak]

Am I the only one that read all this and thought, "I'd rather have another epic past life feat"?

Seriously, these are pretty weak... They LOOK all shiney, until you start putting them up against the kinds of stats you ALREADY have at lvl 28, at which point they're making at best 5-10% difference (and probably for most builds more like 2-5%), I'd honestly rather eTR 50% earlier....

[slarden]

Stealth is cancelled if you get HIT hence why the displacement is nice.

Funny, I got excited by this one. It should include ki regen bonus while stealthed too.

The bonus to sneak damage based on the skill needs clarification, i.e. is it based on ranks, gear etc.

Int assassins are traps for new and casual players. The devs had a chance to make some very easy balancing changes and instead chose to throw them under the bus.

[Ligraph]

Ya but isn't that a good thing. Shouldn't you have to specialize in some area to really be effective. If a dude can have the best ac, the best prr, the best dps, the best at traps, the best casting spell power, what good is that? Wouldn't everyone just play that toon. If you want the best dps you should specialize for it. If you want the best defense you should specialize in it and sacrifice other areas. Same with trapping and so and so on. Maybe this would make the game where people would actually benefit from being in groups instead of everyone just soloing all the time

Well put.

[Nigo]

These feats do not help my s&b tank at all