Update 29 Feats: Legendary Feats

[CThruTheEgo]

Sneak attack boosted by melee power 150%, so, multiplier would be 0.35

Math is a bit off. 150% of 20 is 30, so the multiplier would be 1.3

I did some rough calcs for my assassin earlier and the two feats came out roughly the same offensively. The +20 melee power would come out slightly ahead, but the ethereal feat has more utility and defense. So overall I think they're fairly balanced.

EDIT: As I mentioned in a previous post, I think ethereal needs to be changed so the displacement effect persists for a time after coming out of sneak mode, say ten seconds to match measure the foe. To balance the feat overall, remove some combination of +2 skills, invis guard, or lower the sneak attack damage to +1 for every 3 or 4 hide. Right now, the displacement while sneaking is useless.

[lyrecono]

***Please make sure you have read this thread first, it contains an overview of Update 29 Feats.***


At level 30 you will get a choice of one Legendary Feat. These feats are stronger than most of your standard feats, and pull their power from different planes. To help round power levels in upper Epic, a lot of these feats are meant to be a little more powerful for characters that have built for versatility; most of them include parts useful to many kinds of players.

• Scion of Limbo
  
  • +2 Determination Bonus to all Saves
  • eight buffs, each one minute long. Cycles randomly.
    
    • +40 Melee and Ranged power, +80 Spell Power
    • +16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot, +20% Spell Crit Damage
    • +30 PRR and MRR
    • +20% Dodge and +40 Healing Amp
    • +20 DR /Law
    • Your weapon/unarmed strikes and spells deal 1d20 Chaos Damage
    • Each time you would be damaged, you have a +5% chance to completely ignore the damage. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.
    • Confetti explodes around your shoulders. Festive!

I see several feats purely for spellcaster, a couple for gishes/hybrid builds, where are the melee feats?

All the plane scion feats are pathetic for pure melee's, they lack elemental spell power to make it worth it

Feywild seems to be geared towards bards and warlocks, neither of them are pure melee's.

Shadowfell, i have no idea who this is really geared to. What endgame necro spells need spell power? Wail?

Scion of the Ethereal Plan, blur/displacement comes on items the guard caused lag issues in the past. the hide mechanic might work, though many end game rogues that i know skipped it because it didn't work/matter in endgame.

Scion of the Astral Plane, most people will say this is meant for melee's, however, those that use a lot of tactics (fighters and fighters come to mind already can reach an extreme dc but can they justify an Legendary Feat for a +4? the dodge/ref save is worthless to heavy&medium armor wearers, some might say this was for monks, but a smart monk will go for something with prr since they need that more at endgame. Not that i see many monks at end game these days.....

Scion of Mechanus, made for pure WF fighters and bladeforged toons?

Scion of Celestia, made for 90% of the warlocks on my server, if there were still some divines around they could use it too i guess.

Scion of Elysium, Can you summon more then 1 creature? are summons any good to justify building a toon for it?

Scion of Arborea, some much needed MP, +2 enh bonus and some useless stuff, this comes close to being useful.

Limbo, really? far to unreliable

I understand that you dev's try to help spell casters but through us barbs and fighters a bone here.

Scion of the Plane of shavarath
+2 maniac bonus vs fear
+20 MRR
+20 Melee Power
Add 1D12 random elemental damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Melee Power)


This brings me to the next point, why are you guys using the lame names for the planes instead of the proper Eberron names for the planes, especially if you guys want to tie them in with epic Vale/Shroud
Seriously uska, where are you, you're usually the first to rage over the setting aspect.
• Scion of the Plane of Earth
?
• Scion of the Plane of Air
Syrania

• Scion of the Plane of Fire
Fernia?

• Scion of the Plane of Water
Risia

• Scion of the Feywild
Thelanis

• Scion of the Shadowfell
Dolurrh

• Scion of the Ethereal Plane
Thelanis?

• Scion of the Astral Plane
Useless feat, dump it

• Scion of Mechanus
Daanvi

• Scion of Celestia
Irian

• Scion of Elysium
Lamannia

• Scion of Arborea
not good enough,remove/change feat

• Scion of Limbo
Kythri

• Scion of the Plane of shavarath
+2 maniac bonus vs fear
+20 MRR
+20 Melee Power
Add 1D12 random elemental damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Melee Power)

• Xoriat
+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge.
+4 to Reflex Saves.
-4 save vs Otto's Sphere of Dancing

[draven1]

You forgot to multiply the bonus SA dmg from hide by MP. assume 100 MP is 150 dmg, but both your hide score and your normal SA dmg numbers are a bit low.

It is direct compare 2 feats, so I didn't include MP bonus for Ethereal feat, because it gives 0 MP.

[CThruTheEgo]

It is direct compare 2 feats, so I didn't include MP bonus for Ethereal feat, because it gives 0 MP.

That's true, but at level 30 you are going to have some amount of melee power which will boost the sneak attack damage from ethereal further, and that does factor into the overall benefit of the feat so it needs to be taken into account as well.

[Bobby88888]

While useful to look at them in a vacuum it is more accurate to look at them in the actual game so here goes:

Assumptions:
-100 base damage (before MP, arbitrarily picked)
-375 average SA dmg (post MP, roughly what I see on live, I don't pay that much attention to it though so could be wrong)= 150 base SA dmg
-100 MP (roughly my current live MP with mtf or damage boost going)
-128 hide

Before either:
100*2+150*2.5=575

Arborea:
-MP = 120
100*2.2 +150*2.8=640

Ethereal:
100*2+214*2.5=735

95 more damage from ethereal, some of which can be made back up by MP applying to secondary effects. Ethereal ends up with a little more damage but it only gives damage while arborea also gives other useful effects, fairly big useful effects.

Edited for a math fail

[CThruTheEgo]

While useful to look at them in a vacuum it is more accurate to look at them in the actual game so here goes:

Assumptions:
-100 base damage (before MP, arbitrarily picked)
-375 average SA dmg (post MP, roughly what I see on live, I don't pay that much attention to it though so could be wrong)= 150 base SA dmg
-100 MP (roughly my current live MP with mtf or damage boost going)
-128 hide

Before either:
100*2+150*2.5=575

Arborea:
-MP = 120
100*2.2 +150*2.8=640

Ethereal:
100*2+214*2.5=735

95 more damage from ethereal, some of which can be made back up by MP applying to secondary effects. Ethereal ends up with a little more damage but it only gives damage while arborea also gives other useful effects, fairly big useful effects.

Edited for a math fail

Factoring in crits would probably close that gap quite a bit, if not pull arborea ahead. Arborea also gains +2 enhancement bonus, so another 2 base damage, which is also affected by total melee power and crits.

Ethereal offers more than just damage. Invis guard resets agro, the +2 skills are useful for a dex based assassin, the blur is meh because it's easily slotted elsewhere, the displacement would be useful if it was made to persist for some time after coming out of sneak mode. IMO arborea is the one that doesn't offer much more than damage, at least for an assassin, but since it probably leads in damage, then I think they're well balanced overall.

[draven1]

Any possibility we can get +4 assassinate DC somewhere?

Yeah, casters got passive +6 DC from feats(Scion of the Shadowfell +4 & embolden magic +2), & another situtational +6 DC from lvl 21 feat(Arcane Insight).
Total +12 DC from U29, but 0 for assassinate DC?

I am sure legendary contents will need at least +10 DC from today's build. Even +4 isn't enough.

[Torkzed]

I see several feats purely for spellcaster, a couple for gishes/hybrid builds, where are the melee feats?

While I can understand why you might look at the list and think that melee is getting less because there are far fewer options for melee, I think it really is just a product of the way melee power is applied across all weapon types.


Melee have melee power. It works on every single melee weapon, be it bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, whatever. While you were not impressed with them, there was a feat that added melee power, and another feat that added melee DC bonuses.

Depending on what kind of caster one is building, there are really only one or two decent choices in this list. There is a feat that provides a bonus to your main spell damage type. And there are feats that add to DCs.

I guess you might argue you should have both melee benefits in one feat, since several caster feats give both a DC benefit and a spell power benefit, but I really dont think there is as much a difference in choices as your post would suggest.

[Lanadazia]

• Scion of the Plane of Water
  
  • +200 Maximum Spell Points
  • +20 MRR
  • +10 Cold Spell Power, +30 Universal Spell Power
  • Add 2d20 Cold damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Spell Power)

• Scion of the Ethereal Plane
  
  • Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
  • +1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
  • +2 to all Skills
  • Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect

• Scion of Mechanus
  
  • +20 Repair & Rust Spell Power, +20 Universal Spell Power
  • +20 Repair Amplification (assuming you take healing from Repair)
  • +10% Fortification Bypass on weapon and unarmed attacks
  • Gain: Master Reconstruction, shares cooldown with Communion of Scribing

• Scion of Elysium
  
  • Summoned creatures gain +25 PRR and MRR
  • Summoned creatures gain +20 MP, RP, and USP
  • Summoned creatures gain +100% Fortification
  • Summoned creatures gain a 5% chance to ignore incoming damage entirely. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.

• Scion of Limbo
  
  • +2 Determination Bonus to all Saves
  • eight buffs, each one minute long. Cycles randomly.
    
    • +40 Melee and Ranged power, +80 Spell Power
    • +16% Doublestrike & Doubleshot, +20% Spell Crit Damage
    • +30 PRR and MRR
    • +20% Dodge and +40 Healing Amp
    • +20 DR /Law
    • Your weapon/unarmed strikes and spells deal 1d20 Chaos Damage
    • Each time you would be damaged, you have a +5% chance to completely ignore the damage. Does not affect any incoming Positive, Negative, or Repair effects.
    • Confetti explodes around your shoulders. Festive!

plane of water, etheral plane and mechanus seem off to me. like they're too weak. even as a water savant i would not pick the plane of water feat. compared to the other feats the plane of water feat is the weakest of the complete list.

the mechanus and etheral ones are just meh.. i'd rather see the sneakattack bonus nerfed instead of having such a big bonus and some "meh" stuff with it. perma blur and invis guard are not very rare, there are several items with that. sure it may open up an item slot, but still thats not as great as others like 25% crit damage, or massive DC boosts in other feats.

not sure about the elysium one. it sounds really nice, but then again the messy AI will make that feat kinda obsolete

the limbo one seems to be way too powerful. even though its randomized i think the boni are too powerful in the first place. DDO is a game with caluclabe character builds, its alot about choices you make, the character cutomization is superb, i don't think more of that randomized stuff fits in. (double rainbow past life was kinda silly already, so is most stuff of the shiradi ED)

[lyrecono]

While I can understand why you might look at the list and think that melee is getting less because there are far fewer options for melee, I think it really is just a product of the way melee power is applied across all weapon types.


Melee have melee power. It works on every single melee weapon, be it bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, whatever. While you were not impressed with them, there was a feat that added melee power, and another feat that added melee DC bonuses.

Depending on what kind of caster one is building, there are really only one or two decent choices in this list. There is a feat that provides a bonus to your main spell damage type. And there are feats that add to DCs.

I guess you might argue you should have both melee benefits in one feat, since several caster feats give both a DC benefit and a spell power benefit, but I really don't think there is as much a difference in choices as your post would suggest.

yes, and i argues that the feat that adds dc's is pathetic, those that invest in it can already reach high dc and the rest of the benefits are terribly weak and unsuited for most melees i know.
it seems to be geared towards monks but they are far better of with the acid/prr one.

The other one was terrible too, that's why i came up with the one i mentioned, it is far better at filling the gap most melee's suffer due to the armor nerf
Come on, 20 force and universal power? pathetic +4 fort saves? really?

in all there are 2 somewhat melee orientated feats, but they barely are true melee feats, 1 is weak the other is not fully geared towards full melee's

when i cam up with this:
• Scion of the Plane of shavarath
+2 maniac bonus vs fear
+20 MRR
+20 Melee Power
Add 1D12 random elemental damage to weapon and unarmed attacks (Scales with Melee Power)

maybe you could skip the random elemental damage but the combination of mrr and melee power is far better then spellpower

Out of all the lv 30 feats posted by the dev's there is nothing that screams out barbarian or pure fighter feat to me, none of them jump out as a good, pure melee feat

[rehakp]

Nice powerfull "capstones" for epic lvl 30. More caster oriented but thats ok because even meelee/ranged can find some nice picks here.
I can even see that some meelee/rangeds would like scion of shadowfell for the 1d6 healing.
What im little afraid of is ppl and developers start thinking about DC casting automatically including those capstones whitch will not help witch DC casting at all.
I mean +4 for you school of specialization is nice. But its terrible if everyone including developers, monsters and content counts with it and you only can pick it at max level when most of the hard work (if not all) is already done.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Scion of the Plane of Water is a stepchild, with +200 spell points being almost insignificant at cap (or new cap). +500 or more might make it more attractive.

Scion of the Ethereal Plane has several rather useless features. Perma-blur is very common on items and elsewhere, displacement isn't hard to get and having it only apply while sneaking is again almost useless. Permanent invisibility shield is also of negligible use.

The doublestrike in Scion of the Astral Plane is undervalued. 4% is fairly trivial compared to what you can get out of ED abilities (7% for Legendary Shield Mastery, 3% for Hail of Blows, 3% for Running with Wind, 3% for Shadow Training IV, many active abilities). It should be 8% with the +4% for monks.

All of the +x damage to weapon and unarmed attacks should scale with melee and ranged power and not spell power.

Scion of Elysium... Really? Waiting until the new level cap to do something for summoned creatures? (Note that there is no mention of Hirelings or pets being affected) Summoned creatures become useless very rapidly in epic levels because Summon Monster IX is the top spell and so they remain static while the challenge increases dramatically. Summoned creatures surely need a fix, but one which only kicks in at the level cap is not the way to go.

Scion of Limbo - Your weapon/unarmed strikes and spells deal 1d20 Chaos Damage. Did you forget to add the (Scales with Spell Power) note? Which again should be (Scales with melee and ranged attack power).

[amsharkwei]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane

Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect
.................................................. .......
while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
while sneaking, when you attacked by foe, no matter hit or miss, you will break the sneaking. so what's the point ?
why not give it permanent Invisibility ?

+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have.
too low for Legendary fight

+2 to all Skills
too low for Legendary dungeons

Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect
pointless,why not give us Permanent Displacement Guard

.................................................. ....
this is what we want:
Scion of the Ethereal Plane

Permanent Invisibility. and while sneaking, heal 1D6 HP per sec.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every points of Hide and sneak you have
+5 to all Skills
+10 assassinate DC !!!
Permanent Displacement Guard, as per the item effect

[GeoffWatson]

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect

The sneak attack damage is the only good part.
Permanent Blur? Lesser Displacement is available on a few items, and Blur is available from 3rd level.
Displacement while sneaking? Stealth is cancelled if you are attacked.
+2 to all Skills? OK
Invisibility Guard? Useless. Invisibility gives no combat benefit (should give 50% concealment, it gives 0), and monsters attacking you immediately get the "big red eye/I see you" symbol, so it is worthless for sneaking.

This seems not that good. The sneak attack damage can be quite high, but that's all you get.

[Saekee]

The sneak attack damage is the only good part.
Permanent Blur? Lesser Displacement is available on a few items, and Blur is available from 3rd level.
Displacement while sneaking? Stealth is cancelled if you are attacked.
+2 to all Skills? OK
Invisibility Guard? Useless. Invisibility gives no combat benefit (should give 50% concealment, it gives 0), and monsters attacking you immediately get the "big red eye/I see you" symbol, so it is worthless for sneaking.

This seems not that good. The sneak attack damage can be quite high, but that's all you get.

Stealth is cancelled if you get HIT hence why the displacement is nice.

Funny, I got excited by this one. It should include ki regen bonus while stealthed too.

The bonus to sneak damage based on the skill needs clarification, i.e. is it based on ranks, gear etc.

[lyrecono]

bards have cc based on perform, why not an assassinate dc based on hide?

[inspiredunease]

Scion of the Astral Plane
+4 to Tactical Feat DCs
+4% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +4 if you are centered.
+4% Dodge.
+4 to Reflex Saves.

Could this also give increased dodge cap? For a class that cares about it, it's already too easy to hit the dodge cap, so it's a dead benefit; with a cap increase, it would at least be vaguely relevant. On the whole it's power level is too low to make anyone take it anyway really, +4 DC is niceish for monks, but monks are completely worthless at end game. If they changed QP back to how it used to be it might be kinda cool. I thought the devs were supposed to be making minor updates to classes, that would be a nice one to go along with U29. +4 reflex is pretty meh as well. +5 reflex and do not fail reflex saves on a one again would make it vaguely worthwhile. The doublestrike/shot is quite nice, very nice if it could be increased by +1/+2. My proposal would be:

Scion of the Astral Plane
+5 to Tactical Feat DCs (and either fix QP, or at least I can live in hope that monks might be properly fixed some time in the future)
+5% Doublestrike & Doubleshot. An additional +5 if you are centered.
+5% Dodge +5% maximum dodge
+5 to Reflex Saves do not fail reflex saves on a 1

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
Permanent Blur, and while sneaking, permanent Displacement.
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+2 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility Guard, as per the item effect

I agree with others that the secondary benefits on this are pretty worthless, something like:

Scion of the Ethereal Plane
Permanent Blur + Displacement guard
+1 point of Sneak Attack damage for every 2 points of Hide you have
+5 to all Skills
Permanent Invisibility

[inspiredunease]

The bonus to sneak damage based on the skill needs clarification, i.e. is it based on ranks, gear etc.

This was already clarified, it's based on total hide score.

[LiquidZombie]

Shadowfell, i have no idea who this is really geared to. What endgame necro spells need spell power? Wail?

Necrotic Ray, Finger of Death (negative damage on a successful save), Death Aura and Negative Energy Burst will all benefit from increased spellpower for both damage and healing, and with the additional feat to remove the caster level cap, Chill Touch will also become an option at endgame. Necrotic Ray will also benefit from the +4 DC (it has a fortitude save) along with all of the pure DC instakill abilities.

I for one am looking forward to taking this feat as a necro wizard.

[slarden]

Necrotic Ray, Finger of Death (negative damage on a successful save), Death Aura and Negative Energy Burst will all benefit from increased spellpower for both damage and healing, and with the additional feat to remove the caster level cap, Chill Touch will also become an option at endgame. Necrotic Ray will also benefit from the +4 DC (it has a fortitude save) along with all of the pure DC instakill abilities.

I for one am looking forward to taking this feat as a necro wizard.

The current spellpower split (all negative) is not useful for archmage, warlock and not as useful for most divine necromancers. While I think PMs needed a boost, the devs should remember not all necromancers are PMs.