Update 29: Level 30 Overview

[Vargouille]

As you may know, we're planning to raise the level cap to level 30 with Update 29. Here's some initial details!

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New Character Features Gained from Leveling Up to 30

Here's our current plan for what characters receive from gaining levels 29 and 30.

Feature	Level
+2 Fate Points	29
Tier 3 Epic Destiny Feat Slot (3 Destinies capped)	29
+3 Fate Points	30
+1 Twist of Fate Slot	30
"Normal" Feat Slot	30
Legendary Feat Slot	30

Notes:

• Number of Twist Slots: This is +1 compared to whatever you currently have. You might or might not have gotten an Epic Completionist slot yet. The 4th slot you have costs 4 Fate Points to unlock tier 1, the 5th slot costs 5 points to unlock, regardless of what order you gain your extra slots. If you drop below level 29/30 (Reincarnation), then you lose those Fate Points and slot until you level up again.
• Reincarnation Flagging: According to our tests, if you flag for Reincarnation before Update 29 (make it so Character Select shows the big REINCARNATE button), you will be able to reincarnate after Update 29 without any further changes. You won't have to gain additional XP or levels, etc.
• The Normal feat slot is similar to the slot you get at 27 - it can hold lower level feats that you can usually get (aka: not Epic Destiny feats).
• The Epic Destiny Feat slot can hold lower tier Epic Destiny feats that you qualify for, or new options only available here at level 29. Like other Epic Destiny Feat slots, this cannot hold other kinds of feats.
• The Legendary Feat slot can only be filled from a specific list of new feats.
• Epic Reincarnation and Iconic Reincarnation will require being level 30 after Update 29.

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Epic XP Curve

We're changing the Epic XP curve! The average amount of XP required per level (on average) is staying exactly where it is, but the "curve" is now entirely flattened to be the same XP requirements for each Epic level.

• Total requirements for level 30: Neither we nor most players wanted to see level 30 requiring ~10 million XP. That just seemed like too much, especially in comparison to today. We're landing at 8,250,000, which is reasonable for two more levels after 6,600,000.
• Level 28 is the same: Under the old curve, you needed 6,600,000 XP for level 28, and that's still true. This also required an average of 825,000 XP per level (6,600,000 / 8), which is what we've flattened every level to require, including past level 28.
• Why flatten the XP curve?
  
  • It makes sense for characters to spend similar amounts of play time at each level, rather than new levels coming slower and slower over time. For comparison, consider the old Heroic 3rd life XP requirements and levels 18-20. While that's a different case overall (from 1-20), we want to get away from that feeling that the last few levels are just so much harder.
  • XP per epic quest doesn't increase much with increased level, which takes away from one reason to increase XP requirements over time.
  • Unlike the normal "start" of an XP curve, there's no great reason for designers to rush characters through the early Epic levels. That's not where most of your abilities come from, either from a power perspective or "cool new things to use" perspective. By the time a character is epic they've got lots to do, and Epic Destinies are on a separate track. Given that, it's largely nicer to space the "dings" of gaining a level out more - yes, they come slower early on, but you never reach that large gap at high levels where it seems to take forever to get those final levels. (Players may remember the old Heroic 3rd life XP curve being somethign like that at level 18/19.)
  • Based on quest and XP distribution, it makes sense for the lower levels to require as much XP as higher levels. Though we've relaxed a lot of "restrictions" on epic questing, many players do still play quests around their character level, and/or in increasing order.
  
  
• Existing Characters after the change: Similar to when we updated the Heroic XP requirements, existing characters would lose neither XP nor levels when this change goes live. For instance, if you have 800,000 XP the day before U29 launches, you'll be level 22 with 800,000 XP. After U29, you'll still be level 22 with 800,000 XP - you wont revert back to level 20, even though a new character reaching epic levels would only be level 20 with 800,000 XP. That character would need to reach 2,475,000 XP to reach level 23 (like any new character), and the XP bar won't begin filling up until you reach 1,650,000 XP (the new normal requirement for your current level).
• Bank Note: If you are "banking" an epic level before Update 29, you may want to take that level before the update goes live. Depending where you are on the curve this may get you to that level much sooner than otherwise.

Level	Old Requirement	New Requirement
20	0	0
21	300,000	825,000
22	750,000	1,650,000
23	1,350,000	2,475,000
24	2,100,000	3,300,000
25	3,000,000	4,125,000
26	4,050,000	4,950,000
27	5,250,000	5,775,000
28	6,600,000	6,600,000
29	8,100,000 (old curve if unchanged)	7,425,000
30	9,750,000 (old curve if unchanged)	8,250,000

* Another proposal we're considering, in later post in this thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5727258

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We'll have some more details to share in the near future, including specifics on some feats, but please keep comments on those specifics to those threads.

Thanks for reading. If you have general thoughts on the structure of Feats with new levels, or Twists of Fate and Fate Points, or the XP curve/flat line, etc., let us know!


P.S.: Details on feats! https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Feats-Overview

[GoldyGopher]

A first blush I think the XP changes will be harder on the casual player if you go with a flat curve.

I want to think about it some more but that jumped out at me.

[Spoonwelder]

Overall ok....it will make banking sagas for ETR less appealing as you don't pop to 22 or 23 as soon as you ETR but the overall idea is fine.

Now about those new feats......? Can we get some information on those?

[Toxxyk]

Everything looks good, except for this:

"Existing Characters after the change: Similar to when we updated the Heroic XP requirements, existing characters would lose neither XP nor levels when this change goes live. For instance, if you have 800,000 XP the day before U29 launches, you'll be level 22 with 800,000 XP. After U29, you'll still be level 22 with 800,000 XP - you wont revert back to level 20, even though a new character reaching epic levels would only be level 20 with 800,000 XP. That character would need to reach 2,475,000 XP to reach level 23 (like any new character), and the XP bar won't begin filling up until you reach 1,650,000 XP (the new normal requirement for your current level)."

What you should do is give that level 22 character 1,650,000 XP. Otherwise I'm forced to get 1,675,000 XP to go from 22 to 23. That is crazy.

Rethink this.

[Steelstar]

Now about those new feats......? Can we get some information on those?

That'd be on me. Hopefully a little later this afternoon!

[alancarp]

A couple of quick knee-jerk reactions:

1. I don't really like the flattening curve idea... I appreciate the fact that it should be harder to achieve the upper levels. "Flattening" might be okay, but definitely not "Flat".
2. I just don't see nearly enough fate points being available to make decent use of a fourth twist slot...and definitely not a fifth one.

One thing missing from the missive above: for planning purposes, an approximate date of implementation would be good to know. I've already started TR'ing my 28-level chars, but that's just me.

[TPICKRELL]

I think that is +2 at level 29 and +3 more at level 30 for a total of 5 fate points. Is that the correct reading, or is it +2 at 29 and plus 1 more at 30 for a total of +3?

Thanks!

[Vargouille]

I think that is +2 at level 29 and +3 more at level 30 for a total of 5 fate points. Is that the correct reading, or is it +2 at 29 and plus 1 more at 30 for a total of +3?

Total of +5. Enough to definitely make use of +1 Twist of Fate slot, if you want to. (You can ignore it and upgrade your other slots, of course.)

[arkonas]

Everything looks good, except for this:

"Existing Characters after the change: Similar to when we updated the Heroic XP requirements, existing characters would lose neither XP nor levels when this change goes live. For instance, if you have 800,000 XP the day before U29 launches, you'll be level 22 with 800,000 XP. After U29, you'll still be level 22 with 800,000 XP - you wont revert back to level 20, even though a new character reaching epic levels would only be level 20 with 800,000 XP. That character would need to reach 2,475,000 XP to reach level 23 (like any new character), and the XP bar won't begin filling up until you reach 1,650,000 XP (the new normal requirement for your current level)."

What you should do is give that level 22 character 1,650,000 XP. Otherwise I'm forced to get 1,675,000 XP to go from 22 to 23. That is crazy.

Rethink this.

personally i think the adjustment is fine. the xp from 20-28 hasn't changed. only the xp needed. someone mentioned people might not bank saga xp. i still think they will do that no matter what. it doesn't bother me that the xp is increased for the first few levels while the others were reduced. no matter its the same amount.

[Grosbeak07]

As a more casual player this looks OK.

While it may take a bit more at the lower epic levels, its nice that I'll no longer have to slog through 1 million + xp each time in that 27+ range.

[Flavilandile]

A first blush I think the XP changes will be harder on the casual player if you go with a flat curve.

I want to think about it some more but that jumped out at me.

I agree... lets see what can be though quickly...
I modified the new values in Varg quote.

Level	Old Requirement	New Requirement
20	0	0
21	300,000	400,000
22	750,000	800,000
23	1,350,000	1,600,000
24	2,100,000	2,400,000
25	3,000,000	3,200,000
26	4,050,000	4,300,000
27	5,250,000	5,400,000
28	6,600,000	6,600,000
29	8,100,000 (old curve if unchanged)	7,800,000
30	9,750,000 (old curve if unchanged)	9,000,000

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In the end lower level are a bit harder ( but not that much ) as well as high level, though high levels are not as hard as without the change. I always considered that you had to work to get more levels.
( logic : 400K, 400K, 800K, 800K, 800K, 1.1M, 1.1M, 1.2M, 1.2M, 1.2M )

[losian2]

Old style XP curves from 20+ didn't make sense, devs are making a good choice in flattening out.

1-10 should be way faster than 11-20, because you are still building your character, you're making the meat of it happen, you're fleshing out the basics.

At 20-30 you aren't doing any of that. The devs make a superb point with the comments in this thread. Also, since the XP required IS THE SAME nobody is being punished at any point. It may take slightly longer to get the first level or whatever with an existing character, but the rest will come faster than they would prior.

This really is just a small technical change, and it's an excellent point also that it gives people more time to play out the epic content they want, rather than missing a bunch early on due to leveling quickly through the low 20s.

Great move, devs. Every game with steep curves has gone back and adjusted them.. for good reason.

[dunklezhan]

Number of Twist Slots: This is +1 compared to whatever you currently have. You might or might not have gotten an Epic Completionist slot yet. The 4th slot you have costs 4 Fate Points to unlock tier 1, the 5th slot costs 5 points to unlock, regardless of what order you gain your extra slots. If you drop below level 29/30 (Reincarnation), then you lose those Fate Points and slot until you level up again

I'll read it all properly shortly but re the above: i really like this approach, please consider revisiting the 'dead' epic character levels (22, 23, 25 basically) and using this 'get slot/points' mechanic there too (but spread the 5 points you're adding at L29 and 30 across that range - put a +1 fate point at 22 23 25 29 and 30). I get little to no sense of progression or choice from enough of the epic levels (unless I have an ED unfinished) that this is honestly the main part of why I can't be bothered with Epic play. I want to play epic, its where all the cool kids (namely my guildies) are... but this kind of thing really puts me off. Spreading those 5 points out would do that at a stroke and you'd still have the level of power you, the devs, are after by the time you hit 29/30. It'll add some power to the lower epic levels and I know its not really needed there, but it'll smooth the curve (which I would think would make future balance tweaks to existing content easier, surely?) and bring back some choices every time you go through those levels no matter whether you're levelling an ED or not.


EDIT: read it all, happy with it. No comment on whether it's 'enough' extra fatepoints. Its more than I have on all but one character in one fell swoop (I really hate levelling and getting no choices. Honestly!) so +5 by L30 - no matter what level I get them - seems wonderful/amazing to me, as a casual player.

So yah, my only constructive comment is whatever the total fate points awarded by 30, unless there's a really good, long term "sustainability" type reason to cluster them in the last two levels, I would really prefer that they be spread out over the 5 levels I mention above. And if there is a good reason, I really need those earlier levels to see some love in terms of choices before I bother with making any effort in Epic play. Its dull to already have all your advancing already done except for gear and autogrants. DULL.

[TPICKRELL]

...
2. I just don't see nearly enough fate points being available to make decent use of a fourth twist slot...and definitely not a fifth one.

...

My two main's already have twist slots at 4/3/2/1 with a a couple of fate points to spare. It takes a lot of destiny and ER grinding, but the points are available.

Regardless they are giving enough free fate points to open the new slot so no complaints from me.

[Sardonica]

Oh. Hmmmm. This is actually rather attractive. As a rule, I do not like things that thin out the player base, and so have been dreading this announcement. But the extra twist slot and fate points really sweeten the pot. This will help out players who play a lot of alts. Most likely alts do not yet have epic completionist and that fourth twist slot.

[UurlockYgmeov]

overall I like.

couple of thoughts: why not make it 8,000,000 even? just saying.

would like the extra twist slot at 29, mainly because many players won't be spending time at cap. Cap is boring. Cap is well, the end. Hit the 8 million and reincarnate - that is the ticket. So the benefits of level cap increase seem to be all end loaded.

Just like epic greensteel. if eGS has a ml of 30 many will just go *meh* and not worry about it since they will be reincarnating straight away. (Make it ml:26 so much like original GS - good for reincarnation).

[Dragavon]

I do not like the flat XP requirements. More time spent in the weak and boring low epic levels, with weak gear.

More fun to spend more time at higher levels with all the good gear I have there.

[Dandonk]

Level curve: I'm a little torn about this.

On the up side: The last epic levels are long, and annoyingly so. Takes forever to go the last two, or so it seems. The lack of progress really gets to me there. So flat levels help a lot, and make for a smoother experience while levelling to cap.

On the down side, this will mean a longer time spent in the low epic levels before you get the fun high level items. It will also increase the need/want for low-epic level gear - and I don't really have TR space left for more TR gear.

So... not sure I like an entirely flat levelling curve. Flatter than before would definitely be good, but entirely flat? I think that would be annoying in some ways. I would much prefer some middle-ground version.

Feats etc:
I like these - of course depending on ED feat/legendary feat choices
Another twist slot will be awesome, really like that.

[Wulverine]

I like how U29 is starting to present itself.

The XP rebalance makes a lot of sense. It also has the effect of spreading the epic population over more epic levels which should be good for grouping.

Since this update is targeted at the new endgame, i like the goodies you get at lvl30. The poster above that wants the twistslot at lvl29 is completely missing the point. This update is the first step in bringing people back to the endgame. That's a whole demographic of players that this game lost. From what im seeing, looks this will convince some players who left for other games to back to ddo endgame. (people i used to play with). ER is boring and without challenge for myself and those players.

Can't wait to see the raids!

[Cetus]

The TR cutoff should be level 28. I've mentioned this in the council with pretty good support and apparently you guys think differently.

Lets explore the reasoning then.

Adding grind for no good reason isn't my idea of a good time...