Update 29: Level 30 Overview

[Axeyu]

You are merely reiterating a point that has been stated over and over again. Didn't I address it?

You still don't seem to get it though.
There is a very real downside to your suggestion. You can keep trying to tell us that it's not as bad as it looks, but it's still there.
So why not go with the alternative which doesn't have that downside? Increasing the experience gain can be done in various ways which also makes the ETR process more enjoyable.
I don't think I have seen you actually adress why increasing the exp-gain instead is a bad thing.

[Cetus]

You still don't seem to get it though.
There is a very real downside to your suggestion. You can keep trying to tell us that it's not as bad as it looks, but it's still there.
So why not go with the alternative which doesn't have that downside? Increasing the experience gain can be done in various ways which also makes the ETR process more enjoyable.
I don't think I have seen you actually adress why increasing the exp-gain instead is a bad thing.

Well, of course I won't seem like I get it if you don't read what I'm writing.

I quite clearly said in an earlier comment that "I would support any bandaid that would reduce my reincarnation grind".

So just for the record I'll address your point directly: I'm all for increases in XP

However, we have two paths of progression that both require XP. One should require more XP, the other in my view, should not. Your XP increase idea will not divorce the two. What do I mean?

Here's the path that should require extra xp: Going from 28-30. We are having an expanded level cap, it should take more effective XP (by effective I mean accounting for any potential increases in % xp) to reach level 30 than it currently does to reach level 28; after all - it's a level cap raise, we're getting stronger as a result of it, we should do more work to attain these. I'm completely all for this.

Here's the path that should NOT require extra xp: Epic/Iconic past lives. The benefit isn't changing, and the grind is long enough. I am against making this hamster wheel any larger.

If you implement an increase in % XP in order to ameliorate the increase in XP needed to go from 28--> 30, then the only kind of XP increase that would make the reincarnation grind palatable, for me (I have to keep writing this because people tend to think I'm speaking for others), is one that makes the effective amount of XP needed to get a past life no different than the current grind - meaning an increase of ZERO. However, this would also mean that going from 20-->30 would become no different than what it takes to go from 20-->28 right now, since the gap between 20 and cap would be the same as the gap needed to cover for a past life. This way, we have a level cap raise, and yours and nokowi's idea of adding XP % increases effectively makes the grind no different than what it is today for reincarnation.

But, that is not a satisfying solution - as it becomes contradictory to my view regarding the first path. Meaning, that now it would take just as much effective XP to get to 30 with the new system as it does to get to 28 right now, and that goes counter to the point of a level cap raise.

If you find some middle ground, say 10 or 15%, well that's still a 10% larger hamster wheel. And I'm not interested in a larger hamster wheel at all.

Therefore, leaving the ER/IR cap at 28 is the most sensible and simplest solution. The epic level range population didn't dwindle because people were given the choice to TR at 20. Endgame content longevity is far shorter than the reincarnation system. You need to address these notions as I have addressed the ones presented by you, instead of just saying "you're underestimating".

[slarden]

So you never did any endgame content what-so-ever on your iconic lives?

I only ran things for xp and moved on to my next life as soon as possible.

[Axeyu]

Well, of course I won't seem like I get it if you don't read what I'm writing.

I quite clearly said in an earlier comment that "I would support any bandaid that would reduce my reincarnation grind".

So just for the record I'll address your point directly: I'm all for increases in XP

However, we have two paths of progression that both require XP. One should require more XP, the other in my view, should not. Your XP increase idea will not divorce the two. What do I mean?

Here's the path that should require extra xp: Going from 28-30. We are having an expanded level cap, it should take more effective XP (by effective I mean accounting for any potential increases in % xp) to reach level 30 than it currently does to reach level 28; after all - it's a level cap raise, we're getting stronger as a result of it, we should do more work to attain these. I'm completely all for this.

Here's the path that should NOT require extra xp: Epic/Iconic past lives. The benefit isn't changing, and the grind is long enough. I am against making this hamster wheel any larger.

If you implement an increase in % XP in order to ameliorate the increase in XP needed to go from 28--> 30, then the only kind of XP increase that would make the reincarnation grind palatable, for me (I have to keep writing this because people tend to think I'm speaking for others), is one that makes the effective amount of XP needed to get a past life no different than the current grind - meaning an increase of ZERO. However, this would also mean that going from 20-->30 would become no different than what it takes to go from 20-->28 right now, since the gap between 20 and cap would be the same as the gap needed to cover for a past life. This way, we have a level cap raise, and yours and nokowi's idea of adding XP % increases effectively makes the grind no different than what it is today for reincarnation.

But, that is not a satisfying solution - as it becomes contradictory to my view regarding the first path. Meaning, that now it would take just as much effective XP to get to 30 with the new system as it does to get to 28 right now, and that goes counter to the point of a level cap raise.

If you find some middle ground, say 10 or 15%, well that's still a 10% larger hamster wheel. And I'm not interested in a larger hamster wheel at all.

Therefore, leaving the ER/IR cap at 28 is the most sensible and simplest solution. The epic level range population didn't dwindle because people were given the choice to TR at 20. Endgame content longevity is far shorter than the reincarnation system. You need to address these notions as I have addressed the ones presented by you, instead of just saying "you're underestimating".

So basically we have lose endgame population vs lose extra grind for new levels.
I know which one I would choose.

[Oliphant]

Due to lag on Ghallanda and related low population, I haven't been playing this year but I check in occassionally, try the new packs. But when I have played, the grind to cap has been a drag. I think I'm giving up on completionist and quitting the game. No more xp! And no, adding just 1.6 million more is not reasonable.

[Oliphant]

Also, this xp inflation which equals advantage for incumbents, the absolute last thing this game needs more of...

[Oliphant]

And for all that grind so little time spent at higher levels, more times toiling at level 20. I thought the devs have displayed some really great mathematical savvy when updating the game for the last few years but adding even more horrible, non-fun xp and then flattening it so you spend little time at the higher levels, so horrible. I'm guessing the strategy is to drive down server population to just the few whales that fund the game, save on server costs or something...

[Oliphant]

I like Cetus' idea to not gimp ETR/ITR. I don't mind grind for the extra power per se, but I'm disgusted by the idea of all these veterans running around triple completionist and then newbies who buy iconics have hopeless, unfair grind ahead.

[Cetus]

So basically we have lose endgame population vs lose extra grind for new levels.
I know which one I would choose.

Again, you refuse to address the points I made in the end of the post you quoted. You keep saying "lose endgame population", and I don't think that it is going to be as extreme as claimed. Those who intend to play endgame, will play endgame. Forcing people to go through all of this extra work to get the same past lives we've been earning all of this time is a mistake. Furthermore, asking people to "hurry up" right now is borderline insulting, as 1) I and many others simply cannot "hurry up" due to real life obligations and 2) Shouldn't be forced to play at an uncomfortable pace just to circumvent a fully avoidable increase in grind.

Also, there are clearly other folks in this very thread who are expressing concern over having their hamster wheel replaced by a larger hamster wheel with no improvement in the benefit.

It is a delicate situation, I agree. However, simply slapping on a 20-25% increase to this games most popular grind (the reincarnation system) is a very concerning notion to me. The ER/IR system was released after the level cap expanded to 28, so the only time we ever had to deal with a growing level cap in the face of a reincarnation system was when epic levels were introduced. In that situation, the TR grind was rightly left capped at 20, instead of carrying it through to 25 - and the 20-25 population remained just fine.

I really don't think I'm being unreasonable here in my concerns, am I?

[jalont]

Again, you refuse to address the points I made in the end of the post you quoted. You keep saying "lose endgame population", and I don't think that it is going to be as extreme as claimed. Those who intend to play endgame, will play endgame. Forcing people to go through all of this extra work to get the same past lives we've been earning all of this time is a mistake. Furthermore, asking people to "hurry up" right now is borderline insulting, as 1) I and many others simply cannot "hurry up" due to real life obligations and 2) Shouldn't be forced to play at an uncomfortable pace just to circumvent a fully avoidable increase in grind.

Also, there are clearly other folks in this very thread who are expressing concern over having their hamster wheel replaced by a larger hamster wheel with no improvement in the benefit.

It is a delicate situation, I agree. However, simply slapping on a 20-25% increase to this games most popular grind (the reincarnation system) is a very concerning notion to me. The ER/IR system was released after the level cap expanded to 28, so the only time we ever had to deal with a growing level cap in the face of a reincarnation system was when epic levels were introduced. In that situation, the TR grind was rightly left capped at 20, instead of carrying it through to 25 - and the 20-25 population remained just fine.

I really don't think I'm being unreasonable here in my concerns, am I?

That's the thing though. People that "intend to play endgame" are very few. You need people that don't intend to play endgame to jump in for a few raids each tr cycle in order to have a somewhat vibrant community. We'll have what, 3 raids when this all starts? With the way people have moved to playing one toon, that means people will have 3 raids to play every 3 days unless they buy the new timers. What are players going to do for the rest of that time? I guess they could create new toons, but why bother when you can just TR with all the power you already have?

[Cetus]

That's the thing though. People that "intend to play endgame" are very few. You need people that don't intend to play endgame to jump in for a few raids each tr cycle in order to have a somewhat vibrant community. We'll have what, 3 raids when this all starts? With the way people have moved to playing one toon, that means people will have 3 raids to play every 3 days unless they buy the new timers. What are players going to do for the rest of that time? I guess they could create new toons, but why bother when you can just TR with all the power you already have?

Well it's a risk vs reward type of situation. Do you think forcing the entire reincarnating population (this includes iconics and new players) to do a 20-25% larger grind, just so that a subset of that population randomly jumps into a raid or two each cycle?

To me, that seems a bit unreasonable. Raids tend to get milked fairly quickly for their rewards, then they're done. However, the reincarnation grind continues for a much longer while.

[JOTMON]

That's the thing though. People that "intend to play endgame" are very few. You need people that don't intend to play endgame to jump in for a few raids each tr cycle in order to have a somewhat vibrant community. We'll have what, 3 raids when this all starts? With the way people have moved to playing one toon, that means people will have 3 raids to play every 3 days unless they buy the new timers. What are players going to do for the rest of that time? I guess they could create new toons, but why bother when you can just TR with all the power you already have?

Why would you think that very few people 'intend' to play endgame?
Isn't the natural migration for everyone to eventually get to end game.. its just a matter of time...
Reincarnations are pretty pointless if players have no interest in endgame.
There are a lot of players who are not interested in endgame 'right now' and are working the TR lives.. even that does have an end and is generally done with the intent to optimize their toons to eventually move forward into endgame.

I find it hard to believe that there are players parked at level 6.. or whatever other level (except alt packmules and openers) with no intent to ever level further regardless of XP or interest in advancing.
The only ones that I would think that have alaow interest would be Permadeath players and that is more of a survival factor limitation.

Currently there is a deficiency in end game content, but now that level 30 has been established as the endgame cap, I am sure we will see more endgame content being developed and released going forward.
This makes it an ideal time to grind out TR/ITR/ER lives to optimize toons in preparation for endgame and future endgame growth... I would expect epic shroud to be a lengthy grind like old school at level shroud used to be.

[Hoglum]

Personally I would like to run the raids and such at 28/29. When I hit 30 I don't like wasting my time not being able to advance my characters any more. Someone said earlier that lvs 22, 23 & 25 are devoid of anything while 30 is loaded to the gills with power.

Has anyone addressed this yet? It should be fairly clear not everyone wants to sit around at 30 being on a maxed out character that can no longer progress. I'm happy to join them and raid, quest or whatever but I'm not sticking around long once I hit that 30 mark.

I always try to make sure at least one character of mine is in range to join people in high level raids so I cycle them through the TR/ETR process (which I think is absolutely great BTW). If people who like to ETR do this they should be able to help fill the legendary raids. The way things seem to be progressing looks like all we'll here is more of how raids aren't filling, they're dead, etc. Who knows?

[Tlorrd]

The greatest myth of ddo is that there IS or SHOULD be an end game. That is counter intuitive to the whole business model. The model is to reincarnate for bits of more power in one form or another to "eventually" use at an end game. Should people totally and completely cap their toons (as some have done), then the dig is up. There will be no where else to progress. That is a fact of the business model. Once I have everything, why would I continue to play. Thus additional content, loot, or power is needed to keep people playing. But to have an "end game" is silly and a poor model for continued business. The dream of an end game is more appealing on a base psychology level.

Also I agree with Cetus.

[Faltout]

Why would you think that very few people 'intend' to play endgame?
Isn't the natural migration for everyone to eventually get to end game.. its just a matter of time...
Reincarnations are pretty pointless if players have no interest in endgame.

Reincarnations ARE the end-game. And you want people to play the level cap quests before TRing again or else the population there will dwindle and die.

I repeat my vote for NO to ER/IR staying at level 28 (because last few pages have been mostly yes, and we wouldn't want devs to get the wrong impression) and moving on

[DrawingGuy]

I too have to throw in my vote to keep the ETR/ITR at level 28. While I changed the way I played and pushed hard to get all of my ETR and ITR lives done on my main before the level 30 cap as I knew it might increase the XP needed, I do not think others should do more work than what I did. The grind was not small, and as Cetus stated repeatedly, increasing the amount of work on others for absolutely no reason or benefit is not fair and will alienate players. I see no reason the ETR/ITR system cannot just check for being level 28 or higher.

I'd like to also say that we should [b]keep[/i] the current Epic XP curve. This if for several reasons:
- The early epic levels are mostly "dead" levels. The ability to get past 22, 23, and 25 more quickly is a good thing. To have to do the same amount of grind for those levels would be frustrating. 26, 27, and 28 all have strong benefits for gaining those levels, so the additional work to gain them is not a bad thing.

- The current system encourages doing Sagas as they can push you past those early dead levels and have a high payout. This means that you're doing a large variety of quest types rather than pushing the best XP/min, which is better for all as that helps those both on the treadmill and those off find parties for various quests. If all it did was push you to 21/22 and you still had to grind all the empty levels, people will likely just default to the XP/min quests.

- If we go with not forcing extra grind on all of the new and existing players working on ETR/ITRs, why not have a higher amount of work for the new expanded and high reward end game levels? I do not find 9.75 unreasonable for final end-game XP, but if we also divorce 29 and 30 as "Legendary Levels" and 21-28 as "Epic Levels", I see no reason why you can't make it cost whatever you want XP wise. Whether it's 825,000 each, 1m each, or the current curve, I'd still want them and I think they can afford the additional work.


As for those arguing that we should force 29-30 on those that are on the ETR/ITR treadmill, I find that invalid. First is that unless they level-lock the quests (something they've been going back and making less restrictive), you can still do them in your epic levels. If you decide to be elitist and exclude epic levels and only run Legendary, that is YOU'RE restriction and fault. Besides, they can always keep going past 28 if they want too - why make the bigger hamster wheel required? Then there is the fact that if you want to work both on the treadmill as well as play end-game at the same time, you can have more than one character. Not hard to leave one of your characters at cap.


TL;DR - I see absolutely no reason to increase the grind on ETR/ITRs... leave it at 28.

[mikarddo]

I too have to throw in my vote to keep the ETR/ITR at level 28. While I changed the way I played and pushed hard to get all of my ETR and ITR lives done on my main before the level 30 cap as I knew it might increase the XP needed, I do not think others should do more work than what I did. The grind was not small, and as Cetus stated repeatedly, increasing the amount of work on others for absolutely no reason or benefit is not fair and will alienate players. I see no reason the ETR/ITR system cannot just check for being level 28 or higher.

I'd like to also say that we should [b]keep[/i] the current Epic XP curve. This if for several reasons:
- The early epic levels are mostly "dead" levels. The ability to get past 22, 23, and 25 more quickly is a good thing. To have to do the same amount of grind for those levels would be frustrating. 26, 27, and 28 all have strong benefits for gaining those levels, so the additional work to gain them is not a bad thing.

- The current system encourages doing Sagas as they can push you past those early dead levels and have a high payout. This means that you're doing a large variety of quest types rather than pushing the best XP/min, which is better for all as that helps those both on the treadmill and those off find parties for various quests. If all it did was push you to 21/22 and you still had to grind all the empty levels, people will likely just default to the XP/min quests.

- If we go with not forcing extra grind on all of the new and existing players working on ETR/ITRs, why not have a higher amount of work for the new expanded and high reward end game levels? I do not find 9.75 unreasonable for final end-game XP, but if we also divorce 29 and 30 as "Legendary Levels" and 21-28 as "Epic Levels", I see no reason why you can't make it cost whatever you want XP wise. Whether it's 825,000 each, 1m each, or the current curve, I'd still want them and I think they can afford the additional work.


As for those arguing that we should force 29-30 on those that are on the ETR/ITR treadmill, I find that invalid. First is that unless they level-lock the quests (something they've been going back and making less restrictive), you can still do them in your epic levels. If you decide to be elitist and exclude epic levels and only run Legendary, that is YOU'RE restriction and fault. Besides, they can always keep going past 28 if they want too - why make the bigger hamster wheel required? Then there is the fact that if you want to work both on the treadmill as well as play end-game at the same time, you can have more than one character. Not hard to leave one of your characters at cap.


TL;DR - I see absolutely no reason to increase the grind on ETR/ITRs... leave it at 28.

Well said. I agree 100% and find it very odd that the developers even consider doing things otherwise as there seem to be all downsides to their plans.

[jalont]

Why would you think that very few people 'intend' to play endgame?
Isn't the natural migration for everyone to eventually get to end game.. its just a matter of time...
Reincarnations are pretty pointless if players have no interest in endgame.
There are a lot of players who are not interested in endgame 'right now' and are working the TR lives.. even that does have an end and is generally done with the intent to optimize their toons to eventually move forward into endgame.

I find it hard to believe that there are players parked at level 6.. or whatever other level (except alt packmules and openers) with no intent to ever level further regardless of XP or interest in advancing.
The only ones that I would think that have alaow interest would be Permadeath players and that is more of a survival factor limitation.

Currently there is a deficiency in end game content, but now that level 30 has been established as the endgame cap, I am sure we will see more endgame content being developed and released going forward.
This makes it an ideal time to grind out TR/ITR/ER lives to optimize toons in preparation for endgame and future endgame growth... I would expect epic shroud to be a lengthy grind like old school at level shroud used to be.

In a game like DDO without meaningful pVp, endgame is pointless. It's a grind of a handful of quests/raid for trophies. I don't think most people will be into that, but we'll see. It isn't like the quests/raids will be challenging, and it isn't like the gear will be needed for anything. It'll be a pointless grind of the same thing endlessly forever.

[TerysDethswind]

The revised proposal for an experience curve is preferable to the original. I am in agreement with several of the posts in that I think the lower epic levels are boring given the lack of decent gear and the absence of a sense of accomplishment achieving levels since the only improvement they bring to a character is skill points. The recommendation to spread out some of the new points across all of the levels struck me as a good one that would have little impact on the end result (the one Varg found "interesting". The idea's concerning the ability to trade seals and shards for level 20 epic gear in the same way that scrolls can at the epic vendor sounds appealing, with a caveat. The original epic gear was designed for a level 20 cap, which makes them quickly obsolete as you level, so updating those to a point where they become worth having at level 21-22 may help. If new gear is to crop up to make the low levels more enjoyable, bank storage is also going to become a problem. The Gatekeepers currently have no favor reward, so perhaps they can use some of that planar knowledge to give another bank slot.
On a side note, For the first time in 4 years I did not purchase the Otto's Box when they became available because the astral shards were reduced arbitrarily (although, not in the description, which is misleading). The change did not make them less useful, however, I find the precedent to give less for the same price alarming, as was also noted by the increased price for ability tomes.

[Axeyu]

Again, you refuse to address the points I made in the end of the post you quoted. You keep saying "lose endgame population", and I don't think that it is going to be as extreme as claimed. Those who intend to play endgame, will play endgame. Forcing people to go through all of this extra work to get the same past lives we've been earning all of this time is a mistake.

Debating how much of a loss there will be seemed rather pointless to me when the loss can be avoided completely.
But if you want me to adress the point you made I will.
The fact that the endgame population didn't dwindle at that point means absolutely nothing. I'm not saying that endgame would die out, I'm just saying that it would take a hit for no good reason. We have absolutely no way of knowing the effect it had back then, so there is not much to say about it.

I think is fairly obvious that fewer people will stay and do a couple of raids between the ETRs, and if you pug a lot you know that those are very important for filling groups.

Furthermore, asking people to "hurry up" right now is borderline insulting, as 1) I and many others simply cannot "hurry up" due to real life obligations and 2) Shouldn't be forced to play at an uncomfortable pace just to circumvent a fully avoidable increase in grind.

I agree.

Also, there are clearly other folks in this very thread who are expressing concern over having their hamster wheel replaced by a larger hamster wheel with no improvement in the benefit.

It is a delicate situation, I agree. However, simply slapping on a 20-25% increase to this games most popular grind (the reincarnation system) is a very concerning notion to me.

I agree. You must see by now that I don't want the grind to increase.

We want the same thing, we only have different ideas on how to get there.
In the end it does come down to what I said in my previous post:
Lose an unknown number of players in the endgame population at any given time vs lose extra grind for new levels.
Considering the fact that the endgame population is already very low, making a change that reduces it further does indeed seem unreasonable.