Update 29: Level 30 Overview

[HastyPudding]

Here's a modified Epic XP curve that we're considering. Instead of incrementing 150,000 XP extra per level as is currently live, it's only 50,000 (but not so far as 0).

Level	Total XP	XP Per Level
20	-
21	600,000	600,000
22	1,250,000	650,000
23	1,950,000	700,000
24	2,700,000	750,000
25	3,500,000	800,000
26	4,350,000	850,000
27	5,250,000	900,000
28	6,200,000	950,000
29	7,200,000	1,000,000
30	8,250,000	1,050,000

That seems acceptable. It's not as much of a steep curve as it currently is on live and it's not tedious amounts of experience required for the lower levels, either. That's a good balance.

[Talon_Dragonsbane]

I like the new proposal better. Would prefer it start at 575K and cap at 8M.

Is it possible to make +5%xp buddy bonus permanent? This would help offset the increase in overall xp to ER/ITR while promoting more grouping.

[UurlockYgmeov]

still why 8.250m instead of a flat 8 million?

[Systern]

Here's a modified Epic XP curve that we're considering. Instead of incrementing 150,000 XP extra per level as is currently live, it's only 50,000 (but not so far as 0).

Level	Total XP	XP Per Level
20	-
21	600,000	600,000
22	1,250,000	650,000
23	1,950,000	700,000
24	2,700,000	750,000
25	3,500,000	800,000
26	4,350,000	850,000
27	5,250,000	900,000
28	6,200,000	950,000
29	7,200,000	1,000,000
30	8,250,000	1,050,000

Level 25 would be 3.5 million XP, and Level 28 would be 6.2 million.

Is it a specific design goal to extend the amount of time we spend from 20-24, and accelerate the time 26-30? Is it something other than the human reason of wanting pretty numbers and a consistent pattern? Does Turbine object to players banking saga xp rewards through ER? The game has caps built into it through out. What's wrong with the previous curve incrementing by 150k to a cap of 1 million? Level 25 would be at 3m XP, same as it is now, and levels 26-30 would not drag on. I'm not sure what the desire is to extend the time in levels that people aren't impressed with, and compacting time when they're having fun/feel their investment is rewarded/etc.

Granted, most of the Epic Content is below level 25... However, the player-expectation curve is previously balanced around that previous progression. More time at level 22 running quests that provide low numbers of commendations and less time at 26 getting more comms for that epic/iconic heart just seems like extending the grind in an indirect way.

[Anaximandroz]

Early levels still too high.

[Krell]

Here's a modified Epic XP curve that we're considering. Instead of incrementing 150,000 XP extra per level as is currently live, it's only 50,000 (but not so far as 0).

Level	Total XP	XP Per Level
20	-
21	600,000	600,000
22	1,250,000	650,000
23	1,950,000	700,000
24	2,700,000	750,000
25	3,500,000	800,000
26	4,350,000	850,000
27	5,250,000	900,000
28	6,200,000	950,000
29	7,200,000	1,000,000
30	8,250,000	1,050,000

Looks better to me. I'd have to re-gear more with the 1st proposal since my current ER cycle assumes I'll be 22-23 after an ER and saga turn-ins. It looks like I'll at least be 21 with this curve.

[Silverleafeon]

Is it possible to make +5%xp buddy bonus permanent? This would help offset the increase in overall xp to ER/ITR while promoting more grouping.

+1

So sad, great group bonus done once then laid to the wayside...sad...

[Lillou]

Here's a modified Epic XP curve that we're considering. Instead of incrementing 150,000 XP extra per level as is currently live, it's only 50,000 (but not so far as 0).

Level	Total XP	XP Per Level
20	-
21	600,000	600,000
22	1,250,000	650,000
23	1,950,000	700,000
24	2,700,000	750,000
25	3,500,000	800,000
26	4,350,000	850,000
27	5,250,000	900,000
28	6,200,000	950,000
29	7,200,000	1,000,000
30	8,250,000	1,050,000

seem much better, I hope you will take this option

[Toxxyk]

Here's a modified Epic XP curve that we're considering. Instead of incrementing 150,000 XP extra per level as is currently live, it's only 50,000 (but not so far as 0).

Level	Total XP	XP Per Level
20	-
21	600,000	600,000
22	1,250,000	650,000
23	1,950,000	700,000
24	2,700,000	750,000
25	3,500,000	800,000
26	4,350,000	850,000
27	5,250,000	900,000
28	6,200,000	950,000
29	7,200,000	1,000,000
30	8,250,000	1,050,000

I think this is better. In the old scenario, people levels 22-26 could be facing over 1 million 'extra xp' to get to the next level. (The worst was someone who just turned 24 who would need an 'extra' 1.2 million to get to 25)

In the new scenario, this 'extra xp' is at most 600,000 and you actually get to level 28 sooner (400,000 xp sooner).

This means people that are at 6.6 million will be 40% finished level 29 when they log in.

[bracelet]

Here's a modified Epic XP curve that we're considering. Instead of incrementing 150,000 XP extra per level as is currently live, it's only 50,000 (but not so far as 0).

Level	Total XP	XP Per Level
20	-
21	600,000	600,000
22	1,250,000	650,000
23	1,950,000	700,000
24	2,700,000	750,000
25	3,500,000	800,000
26	4,350,000	850,000
27	5,250,000	900,000
28	6,200,000	950,000
29	7,200,000	1,000,000
30	8,250,000	1,050,000

It's not terrible. I don't mind it capping at 8 and change. My main objection is that I personally dislike all the epic levels 20 to 24 because they are basically dead zones. 25 is the level where I get my GH gear. The sooner I can get to 25 the better. Although 3.5 million isn't that different from 3 million, it's still going to feel very uphill to have to get there with only two feats for the first 3.5 million XP. And then a crazy boatload of them after that.

A friend and I observed the other day that 26 through 28 are by far the fastest levels even though they have the steepest XP requirements right now. This is due to gear and feats being much more powerful after 25. Stretching out the top end doesn't bother us. Stretching out the low end does.

[maddong]

The one counter argument in this thread that does seem to have validity is that keeping 28 as cap would mean lots of players never really do 29 and 30 and don't really get to use the ML 28 goodies.

That isn't true. Everyone will have to have at least 1 character at endgame to farm hearts.

The alternative is they pay $TP for their hearts. That is a win win for Turbine.

Alternatively it would be cool if we reset new quest xp bonuses (without resetting favor or raid completions). This is done by on first login after the update setting a flag on the character and copying all of the quest data into a new variable. The new variable is what is reset when you ETR so that favor is not reset. Favor is only updated when the new variable exceeds the old favor variable.

But making any returning players perform more grind than prior players is not a good way to grow the game.

Here's a modified Epic XP curve that we're considering. Instead of incrementing 150,000 XP extra per level as is currently live, it's only 50,000 (but not so far as 0).

Looks good.

[Blastyswa]

Here's a modified Epic XP curve that we're considering. Instead of incrementing 150,000 XP extra per level as is currently live, it's only 50,000 (but not so far as 0).

Level	Total XP	XP Per Level
20	-
21	600,000	600,000
22	1,250,000	650,000
23	1,950,000	700,000
24	2,700,000	750,000
25	3,500,000	800,000
26	4,350,000	850,000
27	5,250,000	900,000
28	6,200,000	950,000
29	7,200,000	1,000,000
30	8,250,000	1,050,000

Personally it's still a bit too steep. I think that xp from 20-21 staying at around 300-400k would be perfect, and xp to get to 23 being around 1-1.5m xp would be fine. Most players I quest regularly with, and myself, currently run ENx2 or other fast and easy (EE VoN 5-6 for one) quests from levels 20-23 or so. This is a lot more practical typically than trying to run EE sagas at level 20 assuming an overperforming build (Wolf and Warlock come to mind) is not being used. I'd like to see earlier levels continue to be significantly less experience, since by the time players enter the 26-30 range most well prepared ones have raid loot, ToEE items, crafted TF items, and more feats to make questing faster.

[HGM-Chi]

• Epic Reincarnation and Iconic Reincarnation will require being level 30 after Update 29.

This is so mindbogglingly stupid I can't imagine how you even considered it. Why in the world would you ever make something more of a grind for players coming into the game. Everything should always be getting easier, so new players advance more quickly to end game. Both of these should have the exact same XP requirements as before, or less. Epic Reincarnation should be entirely decoupled from level in my opinion, and be bound only to Karma in each sphere. Whenever you have the Karma for an Epic TR, go for it.

[Chi_Ryu]

Here's a modified Epic XP curve that we're considering. Instead of incrementing 150,000 XP extra per level as is currently live, it's only 50,000 (but not so far as 0).

Level	Total XP	XP Per Level
20	-
21	600,000	600,000
22	1,250,000	650,000
23	1,950,000	700,000
24	2,700,000	750,000
25	3,500,000	800,000
26	4,350,000	850,000
27	5,250,000	900,000
28	6,200,000	950,000
29	7,200,000	1,000,000
30	8,250,000	1,050,000

That's a much nicer curve - I much prefer it.

It's good there are still tough choices in this game. Something that almost doesn't exist anymore.

Indeed. However, that's neither a tough nor an interesting choice, and reduces the demand for people playing already niche content.

The tough choice you speak of will already exist in the new world. Stay at 30 and play Legendary stuff at full power, or TR and lose it (but gain past lives).

[Qhualor]

Here's a modified Epic XP curve that we're considering. Instead of incrementing 150,000 XP extra per level as is currently live, it's only 50,000 (but not so far as 0).

Level	Total XP	XP Per Level
20	-
21	600,000	600,000
22	1,250,000	650,000
23	1,950,000	700,000
24	2,700,000	750,000
25	3,500,000	800,000
26	4,350,000	850,000
27	5,250,000	900,000
28	6,200,000	950,000
29	7,200,000	1,000,000
30	8,250,000	1,050,000

my biggest concern is that the final decision on what the new epic xp curve will be is not based on players who run EN dailies and how long it takes for them to get to the "sweet spot" when they can equip the "good" gear. I just personally care that its balanced and fair.

[maddong]

+1

So sad, great group bonus done once then laid to the wayside...sad...

If 5% is too much they should at least do a permanent 3% grouping bonus. Would be a great way to grow the game.

[RobbinB]

That isn't true. Everyone will have to have at least 1 character at endgame to farm hearts.
.

OK, it's 90% true and 10% untrue. So I have 10 toons on Thelanis and at any particular time I tend to have 7 or 8 at cap and only 2 or 3 at various ETR stages. But the ones at cap I really only use to run raids so the ones actively ETR'ing are run a lot more. I don't use a single endgame toon to farm hearts, but even if I did EN runs aren't really a stage for getting the most of the ML 28 gear. Yeah, you can use it, but you would steamroll "hearts" content either way. And when I run the higher (ie. "non-hearts") content like EH/EE ToEE for example, I'm more inclined to bring a level 26/27 character who gains both XP and (possibly) loot, over a 28 character that just gains loot. So addition of levels 29 and 30 would indeed result in more use of my level 29 and 30 gear in quests of that type.

So I believe the original claim was indeed valid (at least for my toons), although perhaps some people just play differently.

Note: I am absolutely not advocating for the present plan of increasing level cap with ETR at level cap. I'd vote for almost any other option first, including keeping cap at 28, I'm just saying there are indeed some "downsides" to keeping cap at 28.

[Talon_Dragonsbane]

If 5% is too much they should at least do a permanent 3% grouping bonus. Would be a great way to grow the game.

I think +5% per member is appropriate. The increase to cap is exactly 25% over the previous 6.6M. A full 6-man party would net +25%, thus offsetting the increase to cap.

[Guzzy]

A friend and I observed the other day that 26 through 28 are by far the fastest levels even though they have the steepest XP requirements right now. This is due to gear and feats being much more powerful after 25. Stretching out the top end doesn't bother us. Stretching out the low end does.

I feel the exact same way. Although you need more XP at higher levels, level 20-24 is the real grind. Once you pull out some TF weapons, etc. everything is way more fun, and seems to go way faster. I definitely prefer the revised proposal over the initial one. Way, way, way better.

[Sgt_Hart]

No comments right now, just formatting more so I can compare easier.

Stealing your chart (Thanks!) to format it for what I wanted to see more.

Level	Current XP	Old XP Per Level	New Proposal XP	New XP Per Level
21	300,000	300,000	600,000	600,000
22	750,000	450,000	1,250,000	650,000
23	1,350,000	600,000	1,950,000	700,000
24	2,100,000	750,000	2,700,000	750,000
25	3,000,000	900,000	3,500,000	800,000
26	4,050,000	1,050,000	4,350,000	850,000
27	5,250,000	1,200,000	5,250,000	900,000
28	6,600,000	1,350,000	6,200,000	950,000
29	-	-	7,200,000	1,000,000
30	-	-	8,250,000	1,050,000

Which let's me say, definatively: I haven't banked up enough stuff, for those low epic's. That's where I personally find it distasteful, there was a Level Cap 20, 25, and 28 thus far. I have set up's for those. what I don't have a set up for is level cap 23. Which is seems like I'm going to be spending more time at. Oh, don't get me wrong, the "From Cap 20" set will work fine, but I'm also a veteran player, with Cannith challenge stuff, original Ebberon epic stuff, Alchemical items crafter, ect.

I don't get kicked in my tender manly bits by spending more time going 20->25, or perhaps the better analogy is that I have a codpiece on. It's the newer player's without the gearing, Who weren't here Pre-MoTU who will find themselves kicked in the manly(Or lady) bits. Just saying, keep in mind(Varg, Sev, Steel, Whomever else is invested in this change.) it's the late entry player's who are getting the penalty here.

This is so mindbogglingly stupid I can't imagine how you even considered it. Why in the world would you ever make something more of a grind for players coming into the game. Everything should always be getting easier, so new players advance more quickly to end game. Both of these should have the exact same XP requirements as before, or less.

While much less Vehement, I find I agree. It seems like a poor design choice to increase difficult when you want new players to show up and play "Catch up". I've oft thought that DDO had something simply wrong in how it handled what is/was/will be difficult. While outside the scope of this change discussion, It's touching on the problem I think I see in these changed. I've long held the opinion that older content needs a Step-down progression after X much time has passed. To whit: getting the right ToD ring for example, is now absurdly hard for new player's for what amounts to a reincarnation twink item. Look at lord of blades, it's in the same boat, These things need to be made easier.

As I said, it's tangential, but it really shows in the level of power new player's Vs old players hit. What's more troubling is the difficulty new players have to endure to get such shiny things. That is why changing the XP to make the low epic levels last longer seems dubious to me.

The halo effect is that this will be more difficult for the casual, and more recently arrived players.