Go with old or new archer

[Avaran]

I have a 2 Rgr 6 FTR with all the anniversary rewards including pinion. I have also leveled up a pure 6 ranger dex build. Should I got with my better built ranger archer or make something of my 2 Rgr / 6 Ftr build with some decent gear from rewards or is Pinion or similar bows easy enough to get? If I go with the 2 rgr / 6 Ftr strength build where do I go from here?

[Jiirix]

A little bit more information is needed, like your starting stats and feats you took so far. Is your fighter an elf or not?

[unbongwah]

Depending on how old your rgr 2 / ftr 6 char is, you may have a +20 Heart of Wood on it, which would let you LR into a different class split like pure rgr.

If not, then like Jiirix said, need more info.

[giftie]

I have a 2 Rgr 6 FTR with all the anniversary rewards including pinion. I have also leveled up a pure 6 ranger dex build. Should I got with my better built ranger archer or make something of my 2 Rgr / 6 Ftr build with some decent gear from rewards or is Pinion or similar bows easy enough to get? If I go with the 2 rgr / 6 Ftr strength build where do I go from here?

Before balance pass Pinion wasn't that far ahead of Bow of Sinew. I haven't done the math post-pass, but the nerf to IC should make Bow of Sinew comparatively stronger and in a pretty good place. It can be grinded fairly easily - and it's ML14 to boot. Eventually you'll want a TF bow anyway, so I'd go with the pure Ranger.

[unbongwah]

Presuming we're talking pure rgr with +1 crit range & multiplier, IC:Ranged, and Overwhelming Crit, then Bow of Sinew is [1d8] 16-18/x4 19-20/x6 while Pinion is 2.5[2d6] 16-18/x4 19-20/x5. So Sinew is +2 effective hits, but Pinion has nearly twice the avg base dmg (4.5 vs 8.75), benefits more from PBS+Combat Archery (+9 vs + 14 avg dmg), has an extra +2 Seeker, can combine with Planar Focus of Prowess for another +4 dmg, and free 2d6/3d6 sonic dmg per hit. [It's also got Ranged Alacrity 20%, but AFAIK it doesn't stack with Haste.]

So unless you have a really high base dmg mod, Pinion should out-DPS Sinew by a significant margin.

[giftie]

Yeah, at the time of writing I went by the wiki numbers, which still puts Pinion at 19-20 x3. Now I'm inclined to agree with you that the expanded crit range of both weapons post U28 puts the Pinion further ahead due to the larger base damage. Assuming Elasticity in practice is roughly 5-8% more damage (same as OC), then yes you'd need more damage bonuses than you can reasonably hope to attain. Although for Adrenaline and Slaying Arrows I might be inclined to go with Sinew anyway, while DWS T5 or any other ED should favor Pinion.

Having said that, comparing Sinew to an upgraded Pinion is kind of unfair. Odds are that by the time OP gets enough comms to upgrade, s/he will have a Pinion anyway.

[Avaran]

Sorry for the lack of info. He is now a 3 Ranger 6 Ftr since he had enough XP to immediately level. I do have a +20 Lesser Heart of Wood and a lesser heart of wood. Pinion Cloud Piercer is the only piece of gear worth it.
Race: Elf Align: CG
Base Stats (not sure if that's starting:
Str: 18
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

Hard to tell what feats I took. I have:
Bow strength (I think that's auto for ranger)
Dodge
Improved Crit: Ranged
Mobility
Point Blank Shot
Precision
Rapid Shot
Shot on Run
Weapon Focus: Ranged

No Enhancements selected yet.

This was based on the optimum Archer build at the time when the cap was 8 - along time ago. Just came back to game.

On skills looks like I screwed the pooch:
Balance: 1
Heal: 2
Jump: 3
Listen: 5
Search: 5
Spell Craft: 1
Spot: 5
Tumble: 2
UMD: 4

What ya think? Where to go from here. Looking for the best archer build for what this toon has? Since it has a +20 lesser heart go with this guy over the pure archer I was leveling?

[unbongwah]

Since you're Chaotic Good, monkcher's not an option unless you also buy an alignment change. [You also didn't mention if you have monk.] If you're willing to burn your LR +20, I would probably just switch to pure rgr, which is really good right now; see my Elven Ranger thread for a couple of builds. You should also have an LR +0 if you wanted to try a more modest respec; maybe rgr 12 / ftr 8 for the Weapon Focus / Spec feats? I wouldn't call it better than pure rgr, just...maybe not as bad as it could be.

[Avaran]

So, can I use a heart + 20 as a level 9 and respect right now to a level 20? I don't have a moncher. That build is appealing. I've enjoyed my level 6 pure Ranger ranged Dex scimitar build, tho.

[unbongwah]

So, can I use a heart + 20 as a level 9 and respect right now to a level 20?

No, sorry, it doesn't level you to 20; it simply lets you change all of your current class levels when you LR. So effectively it works like an "LR +9," with the remaining +11 going to waste. But it's either that or keep leveling from rgr 3 / ftr 6, which is...less than ideal in the current game.

Another option is to LR +0 to fix your feats etc., level as, say, ftr 12 / rgr 6 / cleric 2, HTR for a ftr PL, and start again as pure rgr. Basically there are a lot of ways to "fix" this char; it all depends on what you want to do with it.

[Avaran]

Bummer. Maybe I just go with my level 6 pure Ranger that I've built iaw you elf purr Ranger Dex build. I give up pinion and a heart + 20... Does the lesser heart + 0 take you down to level 1? Or keep you at level you are at?

[unbongwah]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Lesser_Reincarnation

A Lesser Heart of Wood lets you redo your char at its current level; you neither gain nor lose XP. You can't change your race, gender, or alignment; but you can change your stats, feats, skill pts, etc. A regular HoW doesn't let you change any of your class choices; I usually refer to this as an "LR +0" to indicate zero changes. A +n HoW lets you change n of your class choices during the LR process. Note that you still have to obey alignment restrictions and you can have no more than three classes in your build at any given time. See this thread for an example of how to swap classes.

EDIT: FYI, alignment changes can be bought from the DDO Store, though you cannot use one if you have a non-compatible class. E.g., if you're playing a paladin, you can't use an alignment change, because paladins must be Lawful Good. Race & gender can only be changed during True Reincarnation.

EDIT 2: if it were up to me, I'd say go ahead and use the LR +20 to switch to pure rgr. CitW weapons are no longer the best choices for endgame, but they're still pretty great for ML:23, so having one free gives you a nice leg up in epics. If you later decide to TR into a monkcher or whatever, the rgr PL feat is a good one to have on a ranged toon: +2 ranged dmg per PL.

[Avaran]

Ok I used it. Now a 9th level pure elven Dex Archer focused scimitar wielding bad ass. What class builder software do you use? And ung how did you get so smart? I see you posting in all forms!

[unbongwah]

What class builder software do you use?

I use ED37's Char Builder Lite. There's also Ron's Character Planner.

And ung how did you get so smart? I see you posting in all forms!

MUAHAHAHAHA I AM EVERYWHERE MORTALS!!

Some combination of trial & error, past experience, other people's guidance, and apparently a lack of better things to do with my free time other than spamming the forums.

[giftie]

Yeah, at the time of writing I went by the wiki numbers, which still puts Pinion at 19-20 x3. Now I'm inclined to agree with you that the expanded crit range of both weapons post U28 puts the Pinion further ahead due to the larger base damage.

Did some quick math with numbers that should be attainable by a first-lifer at 24 (Deadly X, Seeker XII, DEX 50, 50 RP, 150 Spell Power), and found that Sinew is about 85% the base and proc damage of Pinion, not counting EDs where e.g. Shiradi would lessen the distance due to procs. So Pinion is probably worth it, but those +20 hearts are extremely helpful for getting a PL in an otherwise annoying class (such as Barb pre U-24 - hit 20 on your favorite class and LR to your PL class). If OP intends to run to 28 on his first life, then spending the heart might be worth it, but if it's just a matter of getting to 20 and immediately TR then I'd go with the fighter split and save the heart.

[unbongwah]

Well, the OP already used the LR +20, so it's a moot point now. But I don't see much point in banking a free LR +20 based on what you might do someday; not when there's an immediate use one can put it to now to improve one's char. If you've got a long-term plan which makes good use of it someday, then sure, hold onto it; but otherwise you're just hording it.