Legendary Raids and Bypass Timers

[kain741]

Sorry raids are going to be longer than a week, deal with it. No player is important enough to satiate such a minuscule idea of the games longevity by pandering to it... It's actually better to lose players like that than to lose the people who actually LIKE having goals and things to do within DDO because they log in and keep playing between updates. 1 full time player is probably worth 4 "I only want to play DDO for a week every 4 months" players.

Actually probably not. It's all a matter of perspective. From where you sit you want maximum activity to assist in your vision of what the game wants, but that doesn't mean that is necessarily someone else's or DDO's in general. DDO is a business which stays in business by providing a service. Sometimes from a business' perspective the best customers are those that show up, pay their money and disappear as quickly as they showed up. In this model lag is lower, need for customer support is lower and other resources aren't stretched thin on dense populations. If any business can make the same revenue using fewer resources they will generally do it. That is why you see things like otto's boxes and the like needed to spike revenue. They don't sell these to you in their desire to help you level quickly...but because it has proved to be a reliable source of revenue.
Consider revenue booms at local gyms around the first of the year. Do you think they necessarily want every person that gets an annual membership in their gym everyday? What would that do to wait times for machines (ala lag)? Simply put, the best customer is the one that gives you it's money and asks the least of you. Those that don't go back to the gym until next January to renew their membership again are ideal!
Is this what DDO wants? I doubt exactly...but, I very much believe there is a customer segment that logs on infrequently that is willing to pay a premium for convenience. Businesses like these customers because they can sell their normal product while upselling benefits that maximize their revenue generated while in game (again, otto's boxes, timers, tomes, etc).
At the end of the day what is released, if something is released, amenities that accompany it, every aspect of the game exists as a method to maximize revenue...that is the nature of the beast.

[Dandonk]

I like this. Raids are likely not going to be grinded out in a weekend (slight hyperbole, yes), and more of a longer term project - hopefully extending the life of those raids.

I know of a fair amount of players who come back for a newly released raid, run it over and over for a week or so to get all items, and then gets bored with nothing to do until next update.
Now, Turbine can't release content fast enough to suit those players, so maybe this will help a bit instead - or at the very least, give Turbine more money since there are no (or very few) free legendary timer bypasses.

[CThruTheEgo]

If players purchased Raid Timer Bypasses in this week's sale with the intention of using them for Update 29's new raids, still have the timers available, and wish to seek a refund, please get in touch with Customer Support.

Well done Turbine. This is a nice gesture on your part. I'm glad to see this kind of concern and support for the players.

[mikarddo]

If players purchased Raid Timer Bypasses in this week's sale with the intention of using them for Update 29's new raids, still have the timers available, and wish to seek a refund, please get in touch with Customer Support.

Well done, thank you.

[Ellihor]

If you alreaady admitted raid bypasses were a bad idea to the game, why are you making new bypasses for new legendary content? Make it like old times, 18 hours for quest and 2d18h for raids and NO BYPASS POSSIBILITY. So that people will not have everything a couple weeks after it's lauched. You should start modeling the game like it was before MotU, because everyone I know who played since before MotU prefer the game like it was, and agree DDO had it's peak when endgame was LOB, Abbot, Echrono, EVoN, EDQ, Shroud, ToD, and MA.

[PsychoBlonde]

If you want Raiding to last for 1 and a half weeks like the latest quests have lasted then just eliminate the 3 day timer...

Lets be real here, there are people who have zero concept of whats healthy for the game, whats reasonable or even whats for their own good. Many people when given the choice of eating the entire bag of cookies, do so then they get violently ill out both ends all night... then they don't want anything to do with coookies for a LONG time. They learn the hard way.... DDO can't afford to lose players to "learned not to do that the hard way". The game HAS to have measures in place that keep people from turning themselves into a technicolor vomit and dierrhea pin wheel. And it also HAS to have sources of income that preferably make dealing with those measures more flexible for the adults in the room who aren't inclined towards binge purge game/and self enjoyment ruining behavour.

So, lemme get this straight . . . you want a GAME to force people to play a way they don't want to play because it's "good for them"? According to WHOM?

From my experience, here's why people don't run raids on a more regular basis:

1. Raid loot is often VERY specific, so most people have little reason to run the raid. If it's not, there will be the one item from the raid that EVERYBODY wants. This is what people run 20th completions for. But after they get that one item, there's little reason to keep running the raid.

2. There's zero reason to run the raid EXCEPT for loot. The xp is usually godawful--except in, say, Von 5/6 which just about everybody still runs CONSTANTLY.

3. Raids are almost always spectacularly, painfully laggy.

4. Some of the best raids in the game (to run--don't ask me about the loot) are buried deep in an obnoxious wilderness explore area with no teleporters and probably 85%+ of players don't even remember how to get there any more. This wouldn't be so bad if the dumbest person wasn't perpetually the one who goes AFK right when the raid leader says "does anyone need a guide?" then comes back when everyone's waiting at the entrance ready to go and is all "derp I need a guide"--after they've already run down the wrong path, gotten lost, and died. I would just about kill to have them change the Bracelet of Friends functionality so it worked within a certain distance of the entrance of a quest or raid within an explore area--but only on people already within the explore area.

I'm not getting why they think they need to make the raids harder. They need to make them less obnoxious/more rewarding.

[slarden]

If players purchased Raid Timer Bypasses in this week's sale with the intention of using them for Update 29's new raids, still have the timers available, and wish to seek a refund, please get in touch with Customer Support.

This is a very nice thing to do!

[Ykt]

Hi,

If I was a person who posted GIFs in the forums, the one for this would have to be South Park's Big Oil Executive telling us oh so insincerely "I'm sorry."

So, we get a nerf pass accompanied by a very stingy allowance for respeccing, then straight to a sale of +20 hearts in store. "I'm sorry."

Then there is a change to timer bypass functionality immediately after a sale on them in store. 'I'mmmm sorrrryyyy."

This seems very opportunistic to me. Regarding the second change, do you not see a problem with selling a product in your store, then dramatically reducing its usefulness immediately afterwards? I know you want to cash in on the raids in u29, but there is a big difference between selling a product which works as described and profiteering from rules changes made in your own favour.

Seriously, how about encouraging us like way the company treats us so we are quite happy to spend money on your game? Is that concept completely unknown to you?

You might also want to think about adjusting the prices of the bypasses downwards. Though at this point I fully expect the old bypasses to remain at the same cost and the new ones to be more expensive. Y'know, because they're legendary.

Thanks.

You forgot the 1400tp warlock, nerfed (and possibly nerfed again in the future)

[PsychoBlonde]

I'd give serious consideration to making raid completions last through TR. One of the reasons why people try to stack their completions into as little time as possible is because they're trying to get 20 in before they TR (again). If they lasted I'd try to run more raids on each life, just for a change of pace. Esp. since you can now pause bravery so it doesn't impact your streak.

[Jasparion]

Four simple facts:

1- People raid more, not less, because of timers.
2- Nowadays is hard fulfilling a raid party. It longs more than run the raid itself
3- Raids with only static loot as reward and with bad drop have very short longevity. If you set a fine drop rate (DOJ is ok, MOD is unacceptable) and you give other rewards than static loot that is outdated very fast, you will see raids that last forever.
4- And, of course, give us raids where we can do more things than dps!!!! I never will run DoJ again with a caster when they have all the loot of the raid. This raid is terrible!!!

What not-static-loot rewards can you give? Skill augments, hearts of reincarnation, tomes, rare augments, special pots, cosmetics, etc. Yes, Cordovan, all those things that we can’t get in game, only in the store. The longevity of the raids is killed by turbine greed, not by raid bypasses. Static loot has a very short life; we know that it will be outdated with the next pack. Give raids rewards that are not outdated for new loot!

High xp works for some raids, but not for raids in the cap. Special, not item rewards, will work always.

You are very wrong if you think that raid bypasses are the problem. The problem is the design of the raids and their rewards.

1 simple response to all of this:

Turbine set ridiculously low drop rates because they knew people were using duped raid timers to farm the loot so they didnt want them getting all the gear in a couple of hours then spending the next 6 months complaining about how there is nothing to do. The ridiculously low drop rates killed raiding for those of us not interested in chain running raids.

I would much rather they cater to the people who dont dupe or take advantage of others duping - which ultimately forced a response from Turbine that pretty much hurt everyone.

[Aletys]

If you want Raiding to last for 1 and a half weeks like the latest quests have lasted then just eliminate the 3 day timer...

Lets be real here, there are people who have zero concept of whats healthy for the game, whats reasonable or even whats for their own good. Many people when given the choice of eating the entire bag of cookies, do so then they get violently ill out both ends all night... then they don't want anything to do with coookies for a LONG time. They learn the hard way.... DDO can't afford to lose players to "learned not to do that the hard way". The game HAS to have measures in place that keep people from turning themselves into a technicolor vomit and dierrhea pin wheel. And it also HAS to have sources of income that preferably make dealing with those measures more flexible for the adults in the room who aren't inclined towards binge purge game/and self enjoyment ruining behavour.

Based on your (faulty) premise, VON 5 should have been dead years ago, yet it is still going strong. Players can run it as often as they wish, as many times a day as they wish, and yet, they're not "turning themselves into a technicolor vomit and dierrhea pin wheel". Players usually jump on an lfm for it as soon as it shows up, and even at slow times, it will usually fill while it's in-progress.

Sorry, but your premise just doesn't hold water. There is a reason that some raids don't get run once folks have their loot: They're not very good raids, have rotten mechanics, and some are simply painfully awful to run and don't give enough XP or other rewards to make running it worth the pain. I'll happily run some of the older raids whenever they come up. The newer ones? I'll get my loot & only run when a friend needs help. Some raids, even with toons that don't have any of the loot, I try to avoid whenever possible ... once per life & done.

Want to get rid of raid timers completely? I probably will only run the upcoming raids once, and then never again, if that. They'll probably nerf the loot before I have accumulated enough mats to make anything, so why waste my time. On some toons I won't bother. My level 28 wizard has never been through DoJ. Why? Because frankly, she wouldn't be much help. She's a DC caster, and might as well pike the whole thing.

Raid timers actually do help the raiding scene because if you say you're going to run a raid multiple times, it will usually fill. Some people will leave after each run, but there'll be a core who are willing to use some timers for the multiple runs, and the ones who leave after one or two runs make room for others who only want to do one or two runs.

[maddong]

If players purchased Raid Timer Bypasses in this week's sale with the intention of using them for Update 29's new raids, still have the timers available, and wish to seek a refund, please get in touch with Customer Support.

Nice work!

[ggalhano]

1 simple response to all of this:

Turbine set ridiculously low drop rates because they knew people were using duped raid timers to farm the loot so they didnt want them getting all the gear in a couple of hours then spending the next 6 months complaining about how there is nothing to do. The ridiculously low drop rates killed raiding for those of us not interested in chain running raids.

I would much rather they cater to the people who dont dupe or take advantage of others duping - which ultimately forced a response from Turbine that pretty much hurt everyone.

I might be wrong but it seems most people replies I've read here, so far, don't quite remember or never heard of The Twilight Forge, Ascension Chamber, Zawabi's Revenge, The Thirteenth Eclipse, Tower of Despair, The Vault of Night and Tempest's Spine raids before the raid timer fest.

The only way to get something from those were, in 95% of the cases, thru 20th completion; their drop rates were ALWAYS low without the raid timers and after the raid timers began appearing in the auction houses as a cheap resource to obtain, it remained low.

People may not remember, as well, that they tweaked with it twice at two different updates to increase their drop rates and now it's somewhat better and the reason for it had nothing to do with the raid timers, rather with the fact you have 12+ items to drop and about 0,9% chance for one of them to pop in the chest.

Not to mention that I agree with some peeps point of view whereas raids had less lag, were more inventive, better mechanic, even with the fact some had a ridiculous peregrination to just get at the raid entrance.

On a side note, let us not forget that even the quests lately seems like gap fillers to simply increase income with lousy content (Hey Lock and Loaded, you're great for a... I dunno) in a two month basis (Hello Neverwinter Online production).

Don't get me wrong, I understood all the business related explanations within this thread, I've worked with games before, still, what I don't agree here is with the constant exceptions we're getting instead of a regular rule and the usual lack of respect to the population of the game.

Exempli gratia (As Blerkingtom already stated);
"Balance" update/nerf then right after it a sale of +20 hearts in store;A change to Raid Timers just after a sale on them in store (Which thankfully is being addressed).

And those are the latest from something that seems like a house rule from Turbine nowadays as if they forget, or in a worse case scenario some of them don't seem to grasp, the functionality of the game at all.

Imho, either remove the timers, change their function as in being BTC or related, or don't mess with them at all. Making yet ANOTHER timer will just keep adding exceptions to a game that's getting full of it.

[Sooty]

I haven't read most of the thread, so apologies if this is just repeating what has been said already, but I think raid timer bypasses are not a good addition to the game.

I started to write a long and thought out post why I don't agree with raid timer bypasses, then deleted it as it was easier to say I don't like them, please limit legendary ones to 1 per day per character if we are going to have them. Leaving heroic timers as they are is understandable due to the uproar it would cause.

20 completions in a week is not good for the game.

We will see the same crying as usual, along the lines of "there's no new content, DDO is too easy ... blah blah blah".

Thank you for a great game DDO Team.

[Maldrak]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5723935

Just remove the 3 day timer on raids, get rid of 20th completion lists, and let us run the raids whenever we want or find a party, or see an LFM.

I second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, and so on through infinity-ith... this statement right here.

I hate that when I can only log on over the weekends I can't run whatever raids I want as often as I like. Frankly, in my opinion, the raid timers are just a money grubbing scam. Ie, a mechanic was created to limit the raids, for the sole purpose of creating demand for the raid timers.

My reasoning for that statement is as follows:

1) If the mechanic was there to create balance, then the bypass timers would be unbalancing the game, and selling them would break the game. Also, if the Devs were really worried about broken game elements, may I recommend any of the ten thousand WAY more important problems, like the whole Necro1, 2, 3 chain and all the inane pointless mechanics surrounding it's implementations. Or the issues with MRR not stopping alot of incoming magic damage, despite Spell Power increasing it. Or maybe all those bags that drop in various quests that can't actually be opened. Or how's about a MUCH needed overhaul of the Cannith Crating. Or how's about an complete review and overhaul of all the outdated tooltips. Or even the outdated load screens (Seriously, about 1/3rd of them are patently misleading at this point.) Just saying, there are WAAAAAAY more important things to be spending dev attention on....

2) Since essentially removing timers isn't breaking the game as far as I can tell atm (as the original poster clearly indicated, there are scads of the things floating around out there), I think it's fair to assume that letting some of the newer players enjoy the same raiding mechanics as the veteran dupers isn't likely to suddenly rock the ship terribly...

3) But nope, instead the devs decide that DESPITE the obvious disdain for the mechanic (again, SCADS of the things floating around out there - which should give the Devs a clue about how little people appreciate the mechanic - first chance they got to dupe/scam/bypass the mechanic, they did so IN SPADES, and with bells on!), what they need is an EXTRA layer... Ya know, so that they can invalidate all those built up timers and start selling them again... I mean to restore balance - no really, that's TOTALLY what I MEANT to say there... o.0

4) The player base already spoke to this VIA ACTIONS, seriously, they duped the rat onna stick outta those things, do you still need confirmation on how the player base feels about raid timers?

As a closing statement, I'd like to make the following prediction:
IF these timers are introduced, the VERY NEXT time a dupe exploit happens, there'll be scads of these new fangled "Legendary" ones all over the place too... Given DDO's exploit history, I give this mechanic 6-12 months of legitimate functionality... And frankly, either the devs ran this same line of reasoning, and decided to go ahead and try it anyways (indicating money is the motivation - since there are WAY worse game balance concerns that'd WAY outweigh this if balance was the concern), or they DIDN'Y run this line of reasoning, and I just have no idea what to say at that point.

No but really, the devs are actually trying really hard, and there have been alot of really great changes and content recently, so despite the hard time I'm giving you above, really devs, your overall performance is not all terrible, and you have done some good things, so I am being overly harsh. But when you guys do this kinda stuff, and you do it ALOT, it really makes me wonder...

[esojiul]

I like this. Raids are likely not going to be grinded out in a weekend (slight hyperbole, yes), and more of a longer term project - hopefully extending the life of those raids.

I know of a fair amount of players who come back for a newly released raid, run it over and over for a week or so to get all items, and then gets bored with nothing to do until next update.
Now, Turbine can't release content fast enough to suit those players, so maybe this will help a bit instead - or at the very least, give Turbine more money since there are no (or very few) free legendary timer bypasses.

the other solution that all the raids has it legendary version, they are many ppl are not playing like LOB, MA, TOD etc etc

[Axeyu]

"Raid timers are bad. Now, lets introduce legendary raid timers, they function exactly the same as normal raid timer, but for legendary raids. They are great!"

[Enoach]

Raid bypass timers are bad only if they are too abundant.

I do think preventing Raid bypass timers from working on Legendary Raids is a good thing. I'm still not sure we need Legendary Raid Bypass timers to come out quite so quickly but if Turbine keeps these away from what made Raid Bypass timers so prevalent then there is hope.

But one thing I do see is that players with multiple characters in this level range may get a learning advantage because they can run it multiple times without needing a timer bypass

[Livmo]

We had a dev post a while back w/ an explanation why they didn't remove the timers. And from what I remember it was sound. IF the reason is still a programming issue then the OP and turbine are spot on, if this is not the case, I agree with you Livmo.


What I do have an issue with is your comment on 20th completion list. I say keep it and make it better.

PS, nice sig logo

My logo looks great, because I got +10 Insightful Ferdification on it!

Basically I got it Ferdified and now it blings!

[BigErkyKid]

Raid bypassers are a cash grab. The problem is that duping made them so abundant that they kind of killed the business of selling legit bypassers. Will adding another tier solve the duping issue? Yeah. Are we going to feel now that we have to buy bypassers with cash to keep up with the game at the top? Is that the message you want to send, that being an uber elitist in DDO consists on putting cash to grind 20 complet. rewards?