Legendary Raids and Bypass Timers

[Cordovan]

Hello! We're writing today to let you know about a change in the way raid timer bypasses work in Legendary raids. We want to get this information out to you now, rather than wait before you see it on Lamannia, to separate out the discussion, and focus feedback on other aspects of Update 29 when Lamannia arrives with its first preview soon.

Update 29 introduces Legendary raiding to DDO, which are new raids that are CR31+. For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store. Non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses will keep their current functionality in non-Legendary raids, and we will not be adjusting their ability to be used consecutively.

We've heard from the community about the impact that non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses have had over the past few years, including a desire by some to set usage limits on these timers. The feedback we've received on this subject has been often controversial and mixed, and we've spent quite a bit of time discussing the issue internally. We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment. The number of raid timer bypasses in the game is immense; partially due to duplication exploits of the past, and partially due to the volume of timers given out in the past via Daily Dice and the 8th Anniversary Card Event, which was too high. Regardless of the cause, we want to respond to the desire by the community to make sure our raiding scene remains healthy, and do it in a way that limits the impact on players' current timer functionality, by making this change.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks!

[Basura_Grande]

A good idea simply because raiding was better before the timers existed.

[Livmo]

A good idea simply because raiding was better before the timers existed.

Which is the opposite of mine.

[Enoach]

Hello! We're writing today to let you know about a change in the way raid timer bypasses work in Legendary raids. We want to get this information out to you now, rather than wait before you see it on Lamannia, to separate out the discussion, and focus feedback on other aspects of Update 29 when Lamannia arrives with its first preview soon.

Update 29 introduces Legendary raiding to DDO, which are new raids that are CR31+. For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store. Non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses will keep their current functionality in non-Legendary raids, and we will not be adjusting their ability to be used consecutively.

We've heard from the community about the impact that non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses have had over the past few years, including a desire by some to set usage limits on these timers. The feedback we've received on this subject has been often controversial and mixed, and we've spent quite a bit of time discussing the issue internally. We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment. The number of raid timer bypasses in the game is immense; partially due to duplication exploits of the past, and partially due to the volume of timers given out in the past via Daily Dice and the 8th Anniversary Card Event, which was too high. Regardless of the cause, we want to respond to the desire by the community to make sure our raiding scene remains healthy, and do it in a way that limits the impact on players' current timer functionality, by making this change.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks!

Interesting approach in creating Legendary Bypass so that the existing Bypass timers cannot work.

I am sorry to see that there does not seem to be a way to correct the shear amount that came into the game in unintended methods. It looks like attrition is the approach being taken here. Possibly smart to avoid an agree mob of people that my have their bypasses through legitimate purchases be it DDO Store, Events or even AH/ASAH.

A good idea simply because raiding was better before the timers existed.

The only part I disagree with is that it is not that they exist, it is that they exist in such a large amount that there is a section of the community that can run a raid to 20+ in a single day on multiple characters.


Overall I think separating legendary raids from the existing raids may be the better approach as it removes the advantage that some players gained when they should not have. Also this does not punish those that have these Bypass timers as they still work as originally advertised.

[Livmo]

Hello! We're writing today to let you know about a change in the way raid timer bypasses work in Legendary raids. We want to get this information out to you now, rather than wait before you see it on Lamannia, to separate out the discussion, and focus feedback on other aspects of Update 29 when Lamannia arrives with its first preview soon.

Update 29 introduces Legendary raiding to DDO, which are new raids that are CR31+. For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store. Non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses will keep their current functionality in non-Legendary raids, and we will not be adjusting their ability to be used consecutively.

We've heard from the community about the impact that non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses have had over the past few years, including a desire by some to set usage limits on these timers. The feedback we've received on this subject has been often controversial and mixed, and we've spent quite a bit of time discussing the issue internally. We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment. The number of raid timer bypasses in the game is immense; partially due to duplication exploits of the past, and partially due to the volume of timers given out in the past via Daily Dice and the 8th Anniversary Card Event, which was too high. Regardless of the cause, we want to respond to the desire by the community to make sure our raiding scene remains healthy, and do it in a way that limits the impact on players' current timer functionality, by making this change.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks!

My friends and I typically raid more, and not less because of timers.

TY for doing this.

To all the the bypass timer haters, don't use them. Some players like me enjoy raiding more than questing. We sometimes spend a whole weekend just raiding for the fun of it on multiple servers.

[Thrudh]

Some players like me enjoy raiding more than questing. We sometimes spend a whole weekend just raiding for the fun of it on multiple servers.

There are multiple raids, and you can have multiple alts. There was nothing stopping people from raiding all weekend in the past before bypass timers.

You couldn't run the same raid with the same character 10x in one night, but you could easily run 5x different raids with two different characters in one night.

[Propane]

There are multiple raids, and you can have multiple alts. There was nothing stopping people from raiding all weekend in the past before bypass timers.

You couldn't run the same raid with the same character 10x in one night, but you could easily run 5x different raids with two different characters in one night.

Totally agree!

Remember with the level cap was 16 and the shroud took teamwork? (as well as the other raids - even at LV 20 = a lot of tearwork and different build types were needed)
Healer and heavy tank to north west with devil
Evasion and off healer to north east with fire elemental
Shield wall and healer / ranged DPS to south center
Burst DPS for center
Unlocker or two to help with puzzles

A host of different rolls for different builds!

I miss the days when the game provided the need for each player had multiple characters being geared up and ready to roll. Especially when the roles required different builds.

In my opinion, the game is better as a whole having players using a several alts to farm gear/play in general then having a players run a few very or one character. More activity at wider range of levels / more AH activity/ more cosmetic gear / etc….

This is not the only change that will help support this, but it one of many to encourage people to run more characters!

[Delacroix21]

Hello! We're writing today to let you know about a change in the way raid timer bypasses work in Legendary raids. We want to get this information out to you now, rather than wait before you see it on Lamannia, to separate out the discussion, and focus feedback on other aspects of Update 29 when Lamannia arrives with its first preview soon.

Update 29 introduces Legendary raiding to DDO, which are new raids that are CR31+. For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store. Non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses will keep their current functionality in non-Legendary raids, and we will not be adjusting their ability to be used consecutively.

We've heard from the community about the impact that non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses have had over the past few years, including a desire by some to set usage limits on these timers. The feedback we've received on this subject has been often controversial and mixed, and we've spent quite a bit of time discussing the issue internally. We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment. The number of raid timer bypasses in the game is immense; partially due to duplication exploits of the past, and partially due to the volume of timers given out in the past via Daily Dice and the 8th Anniversary Card Event, which was too high. Regardless of the cause, we want to respond to the desire by the community to make sure our raiding scene remains healthy, and do it in a way that limits the impact on players' current timer functionality, by making this change.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks!

This is an absolutely horrible change for those of us who bought our timers. I have ZERO interest in running old raids! Make the timers bound to character retroactively so they cant be traded or sold then. That will fix your problem.


Also I HATE the idea of putting limits on the timers use! Back before timers players were FORCED to play multiple toons to farm mats to make shroud items for just 1 character! If you tried to farm all the mats to make just 1 lightning strike weapon using only a single toon it would take you almost a year! It SUCKED big time!


Now things are great! I only play 1 toon (and because of this is a triple everything completionist), and i want it to stay that way! I want to run as many raids a day as i can afford timers for without limitations!


As i said, make existing timers bound to character, and the problem will be solved. Only those who duped will be able to use them and wont be able to trade/sell them. Lets face it, dupers dont buy from the ddo store anyway.

[slarden]

This is an absolutely horrible change for those of us who bought our timers.

Turbine should definitely do something for people that purchased timers recently - especially since last Thursday night when they went on sale.

I considered stocking up myself, but then I posted this and changed my mind, but for people that did purchase - yeah they should be allowed to return the timers or get those exchanged.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...k-in-Legendary

I imagine many people stocking up on raid bypass timers since the sale were doing so in anticipation of U29 and not to run more epic raids. So Turbine should offer an exchange or just flat-out refund TP for any raid bypass timers purchased since Thursday up until this announcement. Just my 2 cents.

[Livmo]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5723935

Just remove the 3 day timer on raids, get rid of 20th completion lists, and let us run the raids whenever we want or find a party, or see an LFM.

[Thar]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5723935

Just remove the 3 day timer on raids, get rid of 20th completion lists, and let us run the raids whenever we want or find a party, or see an LFM.

uh...due to the insanely low drop rates on some, 20th is the only way you get anything. remove that and i'm done this game as the raid loot is the only stuff worth using. taking all the timers bypasses out of the game would be a good thing. give us shards for timers.


and am i right in assuming as I don't seem to read it other than the comment on the non legendary timers in that besides separate timers, you can't use more than one on raid back to back?

[mikarddo]

Cordovan

Will you be refunding money to anyone who purchased raid timers recently that wants it?

Thats the only real concern here.

[RistoffDervish]

This is an absolutely horrible change for those of us who bought our timers. I have ZERO interest in running old raids! Make the timers bound to character retroactively so they cant be traded or sold then. That will fix your problem.


Also I HATE the idea of putting limits on the timers use! Back before timers players were FORCED to play multiple toons to farm mats to make shroud items for just 1 character! If you tried to farm all the mats to make just 1 lightning strike weapon using only a single toon it would take you almost a year! It SUCKED big time!


Now things are great! I only play 1 toon (and because of this is a triple everything completionist), and i want it to stay that way! I want to run as many raids a day as i can afford timers for without limitations!


As i said, make existing timers bound to character, and the problem will be solved. Only those who duped will be able to use them and wont be able to trade/sell them. Lets face it, dupers dont buy from the ddo store anyway.

There is no change to your existing timer bypasses. They still work on the raids that were available when you bought them.

Hi,

This seems very opportunistic to me. Regarding the second change, do you not see a problem with selling a product in your store, then dramatically reducing its usefulness immediately afterwards? I know you want to cash in on the raids in u29, but there is a big difference between selling a product which works as described and profiteering from rules changes made in your own favour.

How has it been dramatically reduced in usefulness? Cordovan just wrote "We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment."

I think this is a step in the right direction and thank god they did it before the new raids got burned up by old dupers.

Now that people will have to spend Turbine points for timer bypass (since we know what the drop rates will be like - lol) the raids won't die out within a few weeks like we have seen in the recent past.

Hi,

You might also want to think about adjusting the prices of the bypasses downwards. Though at this point I fully expect the old bypasses to remain at the same cost and the new ones to be more expensive. Y'know, because they're legendary.

You are probably right on with this assessment.

[Ryethiel]

I don't know... On one hand, once every 3 days is not frequent enough. On another hand, going in over and over again might feel a little too frequent.

Just reduce the general timer to 18 hours.

^^^ My vote is for this. ^^^

[Qezuzu]

I would rather RTBs be throttled in some fashion. I suggested that ransacked completions don't count towards 20th completions, giving an effective limit of 7 per week per raid per character. But ultimately, old raids have been ruined anyway. If not through obsolete loot or duping, then through so many people already having all the loot on all their characters. Changing the mechanics of RTBs won't get rid of the loot they already have and it won't improve loot from dead raids.

A "reset" for legendary raids would be welcome, if there really is inexhaustible supply of RTBs in the game, which I'm pretty sure is true. The only issue would be people who bought them on a recent sale, it seems; if they could get a LRTB for every RTB they bought, I think that'd be enough.

If you go with this system, and make sure that there's a robust variety of Legendary raids (three is a good start, but I would consider Legendary-ifying some older raids while working on development for brand new ones), we could finally have something worthwhile to do at cap.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Just remove the 3 day timer on raids, get rid of 20th completion lists, and let us run the raids whenever we want or find a party, or see an LFM.

We had a dev post a while back w/ an explanation why they didn't remove the timers. And from what I remember it was sound. IF the reason is still a programming issue then the OP and turbine are spot on, if this is not the case, I agree with you Livmo.


What I do have an issue with is your comment on 20th completion list. I say keep it and make it better.

PS, nice sig logo

[Livmo]

We had a dev post a while back w/ an explanation why they didn't remove the timers. And from what I remember it was sound. IF the reason is still a programming issue then the OP and turbine are spot on, if this is not the case, I agree with you Livmo.


What I do have an issue with is your comment on 20th completion list. I say keep it and make it better.

PS, nice sig logo

My logo looks great, because I got +10 Insightful Ferdification on it!

Basically I got it Ferdified and now it blings!

[Maldrak]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5723935

Just remove the 3 day timer on raids, get rid of 20th completion lists, and let us run the raids whenever we want or find a party, or see an LFM.

I second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, and so on through infinity-ith... this statement right here.

I hate that when I can only log on over the weekends I can't run whatever raids I want as often as I like. Frankly, in my opinion, the raid timers are just a money grubbing scam. Ie, a mechanic was created to limit the raids, for the sole purpose of creating demand for the raid timers.

My reasoning for that statement is as follows:

1) If the mechanic was there to create balance, then the bypass timers would be unbalancing the game, and selling them would break the game. Also, if the Devs were really worried about broken game elements, may I recommend any of the ten thousand WAY more important problems, like the whole Necro1, 2, 3 chain and all the inane pointless mechanics surrounding it's implementations. Or the issues with MRR not stopping alot of incoming magic damage, despite Spell Power increasing it. Or maybe all those bags that drop in various quests that can't actually be opened. Or how's about a MUCH needed overhaul of the Cannith Crating. Or how's about an complete review and overhaul of all the outdated tooltips. Or even the outdated load screens (Seriously, about 1/3rd of them are patently misleading at this point.) Just saying, there are WAAAAAAY more important things to be spending dev attention on....

2) Since essentially removing timers isn't breaking the game as far as I can tell atm (as the original poster clearly indicated, there are scads of the things floating around out there), I think it's fair to assume that letting some of the newer players enjoy the same raiding mechanics as the veteran dupers isn't likely to suddenly rock the ship terribly...

3) But nope, instead the devs decide that DESPITE the obvious disdain for the mechanic (again, SCADS of the things floating around out there - which should give the Devs a clue about how little people appreciate the mechanic - first chance they got to dupe/scam/bypass the mechanic, they did so IN SPADES, and with bells on!), what they need is an EXTRA layer... Ya know, so that they can invalidate all those built up timers and start selling them again... I mean to restore balance - no really, that's TOTALLY what I MEANT to say there... o.0

4) The player base already spoke to this VIA ACTIONS, seriously, they duped the rat onna stick outta those things, do you still need confirmation on how the player base feels about raid timers?

As a closing statement, I'd like to make the following prediction:
IF these timers are introduced, the VERY NEXT time a dupe exploit happens, there'll be scads of these new fangled "Legendary" ones all over the place too... Given DDO's exploit history, I give this mechanic 6-12 months of legitimate functionality... And frankly, either the devs ran this same line of reasoning, and decided to go ahead and try it anyways (indicating money is the motivation - since there are WAY worse game balance concerns that'd WAY outweigh this if balance was the concern), or they DIDN'Y run this line of reasoning, and I just have no idea what to say at that point.

No but really, the devs are actually trying really hard, and there have been alot of really great changes and content recently, so despite the hard time I'm giving you above, really devs, your overall performance is not all terrible, and you have done some good things, so I am being overly harsh. But when you guys do this kinda stuff, and you do it ALOT, it really makes me wonder...

[Spekdah_NZ]

I cannot believe one of my predictions came true!

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...97#post5722597

This is really good news. I didn't mind timers. But there was one point after a raid where someone was away timers to keep the whole group going ... when you have enough to likely keep a whole server population raiding everyday for ... gods knows how long. Anyway this is a great step forward.

[Spekdah_NZ]

Just remove the 3 day timer on raids, get rid of 20th completion lists, and let us run the raids whenever we want or find a party, or see an LFM.

I also like this idea. Just let us raid whenever and let people deal with ransack on their own terms. No 20th completion list, which promotes fast easy completions as fast as possible.