Legendary Raids and Bypass Timers

[Uska]

Raid timers should have had a limited uses per day or maybe limited uses per quest per day.

[Brutuscass]

Hello! We're writing today to let you know about a change in the way raid timer bypasses work in Legendary raids. We want to get this information out to you now, rather than wait before you see it on Lamannia, to separate out the discussion, and focus feedback on other aspects of Update 29 when Lamannia arrives with its first preview soon.

Update 29 introduces Legendary raiding to DDO, which are new raids that are CR31+. For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store. Non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses will keep their current functionality in non-Legendary raids, and we will not be adjusting their ability to be used consecutively.

We've heard from the community about the impact that non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses have had over the past few years, including a desire by some to set usage limits on these timers. The feedback we've received on this subject has been often controversial and mixed, and we've spent quite a bit of time discussing the issue internally. We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment. The number of raid timer bypasses in the game is immense; partially due to duplication exploits of the past, and partially due to the volume of timers given out in the past via Daily Dice and the 8th Anniversary Card Event, which was too high. Regardless of the cause, we want to respond to the desire by the community to make sure our raiding scene remains healthy, and do it in a way that limits the impact on players' current timer functionality, by making this change.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks!

As feed back has been asked for on this issue, I have taken the time to give it some thought.

First I feel that the use of the term CR instead of level could lead to confusion, does CR31+ means raids higher than level 30, and that case does it mean that raids that are level 30 on normal can use the old timers but on hard will need the new timers.
Or does CR31+ include raids with lower levels than lvl 30? it would be nice to have clarity on this as the wiki is confusing when defining the term CR

"Challenge Rating is a measure of how difficult an individual monster, a trap, or challenge (quest) is. In PnP, the difference between these CRs and the party level is supposed to determine the experience reward of the encounter.

CR is determined by a number of factors - ability to dish damage, ability to absorb damage, and even factors like an ooze's ability to damage your weapon. Since CR is an "average difficulty", it can only be used a baseline of a creature's danger level. A character running around with Muckbane is going to find oozes to be little challenge, whereas the fighter with an expensive weapon that breaks finds the CR to be well justified. "

Does this mean that only a new group of raids will be classed as CR31+ starting with the update 29 shroud?


Ok to move on to my thoughts on the need to create a new raid timer.
Given the reasons for doing so include the past events which caused duplication exploits of the past and past events, the term past is a key factor in that the flow has been stopped so in time the problem should resolve itself as they are consumed. unless future glitches occur in which case even the new form of timer could face the same problem.

As for the problems that some players in the "community" have complained about, I fail to see why there should be a real negative impact on access to raid groups due to an excess of raid timers, it seems more logical that with more timers bypasses there are more groups running raids more frequently.
However with the 3 day time delay between raids, the increased content in the game, and the much wider range of player levels in game means that during off peak hours these raids can almost never be run, with out people using up TP's to get a timer only to wait around for 30 mins plus for a group not to fill. OK some hard core groups may be able to short man it, and large guild can close group them, but the anti raid timer bypass lobby is missing the point that without them it will be harder for small guilds or solo players to find LFM's for the raid they want within their allotted playing time.
Also new players who don't have those Demigod toons are likely to find it harder.

The final point I have includes the impact of the flat lining of epic XP, which isn't a big problem at first glance, but it will result in epic players spending more time in the low 20's than present, therefore too weak for higher level raids, then the higher levels with fly, now if people wish to play end game toons then all is well, but for those doing Epic PL's it will mean that they can if a Raid group is up at the get one raid in then either wait 3 days or buy a new timer.
And that is where I guess the reality behind this idea for the new timer comes in, BUY A NEW TIMER.

If I can make a couple of suggestions, the first is that maybe it is time to reduce the 3 day timer down to a 24 hour timer on raids, or a 36 hour timer to shake things up a bit.
The othe I guess is a little too late but I'll throw it in anyway, why not just decrease the XP increment between epic levels, from the present 150k increment pre-level to say a 50k increment, starting with 600k from lvl 20 to 21, then incrementing a little pre level till 1,050K for lvl 29 to 30. this would result in more players spending a little more time at the higher end of epic scale and therefor more people capable of running higher level raids at the same time.

[DrWily]

I am currently contempt with the way raid timers and raid hourglasses work as of this moment, and would prefer it kept that way. I find it way easier organizing a raid if people have hourglasses to use/give out in the event of "I forgot to turn in last time" or "Oops, that was my last hourglass". Even "Hey, I'm still on timer but can someone let me borrow an hourglass?" is a sign that that particular player can join in on the raid party instead of having to wait for everyone to be off timer.



I do not want to have to buy new raid hourglasses with TP/AS that I cannot afford, when I have 30+ of the current ones on me intended to be saved for future raids. If anything let the current ones work in new content and raise their prices after U29 is released. Will people still buy them? Definitely. Will people get mad that the timers they bought on sale won't work in the new raids? Nope.

I do not want current raid hourglasses nerfed to have limited uses per X, or an expiration date, especially after people buying tens to hundreds with the recent sale on them to use now or later.

I do not want current raid hourglasses to be bound to account/character, due to the fact I like to hand out X amount to someone who would need or use them (yes there are idiots who do that).

I do not want the 20th completion list OR the raid timer for raids removed, UNLESS there was a positive trade-off. An example would be increasing the drop rates for raids where said drop rates appear non-existent, and a personal thing would be having one random piece or raid loot drop for one player, every time, plus 1-2 additional pieces of raid loot for other players if the raid was done on Hard and 2-3 more if done on Elite. I personally want to see more "endgame" raids done on Elite difficulty.

I do, however, want people to stop complaining that the raid hourglasses are nothing but bad news, and I also want the devs to stop punishing all players, across all servers, for something a small group (I wanna say 1% or less of all players who play DDO, but that might be too small) of players did a long time ago. That's all in the past now, and I'd prefer it to stay in the past.

But hey, that's just my two cents.

[Silverleafeon]

I am currently contempt with the way raid timers and raid hourglasses work as of this moment, and would prefer it kept that way. I find it way easier organizing a raid if people have hourglasses to use/give out in the event of "I forgot to turn in last time" or "Oops, that was my last hourglass". Even "Hey, I'm still on timer but can someone let me borrow an hourglass?" is a sign that that particular player can join in on the raid party instead of having to wait for everyone to be off timer.

/signed

I do not want to have to buy new raid hourglasses with TP/AS that I cannot afford, when I have 30+ of the current ones on me intended to be saved for future raids. If anything let the current ones work in new content and raise their prices after U29 is released. Will people still buy them? Definitely. Will people get mad that the timers they bought on sale won't work in the new raids? Nope.

/staying out of that debate {sympathy to you and my guildies anyway}

I do not want current raid hourglasses nerfed to have limited uses per X, or an expiration date, especially after people buying tens to hundreds with the recent sale on them to use now or later.

/signed

I do not want current raid hourglasses to be bound to account/character, due to the fact I like to hand out X amount to someone who would need or use them (yes there are idiots who do that).

/signed {nice Bday or other presents, ect...}

I do not want the 20th completion list OR the raid timer for raids removed, UNLESS there was a positive trade-off. An example would be increasing the drop rates for raids where said drop rates appear non-existent, and a personal thing would be having one random piece or raid loot drop for one player, every time, plus 1-2 additional pieces of raid loot for other players if the raid was done on Hard and 2-3 more if done on Elite. I personally want to see more "endgame" raids done on Elite difficulty.

/signed {love the mythic approach as a start, willing to listen to debates by devs, etc..}

I do, however, want people to stop complaining that the raid hourglasses are nothing but bad news, and I also want the devs to stop punishing all players, across all servers, for something a small group (I wanna say 1% or less of all players who play DDO, but that might be too small) of players did a long time ago. That's all in the past now, and I'd prefer it to stay in the past.

I /breeze over static when its tiresome

But hey, that's just my two cents.

Have a nickel, well said +1

[dontmater]

Hi,

If I was a person who posted GIFs in the forums, the one for this would have to be South Park's Big Oil Executive telling us oh so insincerely "I'm sorry."

So, we get a nerf pass accompanied by a very stingy allowance for respeccing, then straight to a sale of +20 hearts in store. "I'm sorry."

Then there is a change to timer bypass functionality immediately after a sale on them in store. 'I'mmmm sorrrryyyy."

This seems very opportunistic to me. Regarding the second change, do you not see a problem with selling a product in your store, then dramatically reducing its usefulness immediately afterwards? I know you want to cash in on the raids in u29, but there is a big difference between selling a product which works as described and profiteering from rules changes made in your own favour.

Seriously, how about encouraging us like way the company treats us so we are quite happy to spend money on your game? Is that concept completely unknown to you?

You might also want to think about adjusting the prices of the bypasses downwards. Though at this point I fully expect the old bypasses to remain at the same cost and the new ones to be more expensive. Y'know, because they're legendary.

Thanks.

can we get an amen my bRothA!!?

[FranOhmsford]

Hello! We're writing today to let you know about a change in the way raid timer bypasses work in Legendary raids. We want to get this information out to you now, rather than wait before you see it on Lamannia, to separate out the discussion, and focus feedback on other aspects of Update 29 when Lamannia arrives with its first preview soon.

Update 29 introduces Legendary raiding to DDO, which are new raids that are CR31+. For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store. Non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses will keep their current functionality in non-Legendary raids, and we will not be adjusting their ability to be used consecutively.

We've heard from the community about the impact that non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses have had over the past few years, including a desire by some to set usage limits on these timers. The feedback we've received on this subject has been often controversial and mixed, and we've spent quite a bit of time discussing the issue internally. We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment. The number of raid timer bypasses in the game is immense; partially due to duplication exploits of the past, and partially due to the volume of timers given out in the past via Daily Dice and the 8th Anniversary Card Event, which was too high. Regardless of the cause, we want to respond to the desire by the community to make sure our raiding scene remains healthy, and do it in a way that limits the impact on players' current timer functionality, by making this change.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks!

You're killing the New End-Game before it's even out!

Raid Timer Bypasses were a terrible idea and all they do is split your player base between the haves {those who can afford them or exploited to get them} and the have nots {everyone else!}.

Legendary Timer Bypasses {assuming there's no possible way for people to get them fraudulently} will be an even worse Money Grab!


For these to be seen as anything more than that they'd have to drop in significant numbers in actual in-game content {NOT Daily Dice!} and then they'd just become a must have for every player who wanted to run End-Game creating yet another problem!

You want to have a timer on Legendary Raids - I'm all for that {24 hrs, 48hrs, 72 hrs are all fine by me - I won't be buying a single Bypass and any I get from Daily Dice will be stuck on the AH for a buyout below the lowest already there!}.
I don't want to have to run the same content over and over and over again consecutively!
And if I do run the same content multiple times in a day it will be on different alts anyway!

Worst of all - You simply can't give out decent drop rates for End-Game when some players are able to run those quests/raids 10x a day while others will take a month without timers to run the same number!

Timer Bypasses do nothing but split your End-Game population!



Oh and as Daily Dice is one of the few places where I have a chance at a Tome I really don't want them further diluted with something I am totally against even being in the game!

[Whippy]

I have to say that I think this is a good change. There are aspects of the raid timers that are nice, but they really did kill raiding as such. Having missed the 8th anniversary ones, I've been gifted some by long term friends and guildies, and bought what I could just to try to keep up, but even then it's been difficult.

I like the idea that a raid timer is still available for legendary raids but that they are a bit harder to get, unless of course you're willing to spend a fortune in the store, which most of us can't afford to do.

Good change in my opinion.

[Robbenklopper]

Legendary Timer Bypasses {assuming there's no possible way for people to get them fraudulently} will be an even worse Money Grab!

... For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store ...

But i´m afraid they´ll be as rare as Tomes and will disappear over time. The creation of bypassers anyway contributed too much to a decreasing raid-frequency for the average People and were "no good idea" from my Point of view.

[FranOhmsford]

... For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store ...

Yet further decreasing the drop rates of Tomes from Daily Dice!

I wouldn't mind if all the good stuff wasn't concentrated in just 1% of the Dice Roll - If say you got Timer Bypasses on rolls of 92-95, +1-3 Skill Tomes on rolls of 96-98, Skill/Stat Upgrade Tomes on rolls of 99 and +2-5 Stat Tomes on rolls of 100.

But i´m afraid they´ll be as rare as Tomes and will disappear over time. The creation of bypassers anyway contributed too much to a decreasing raid-frequency for the average People and were "no good idea" from my Point of view.

Some people seem to think that Raid Timer Bypasses get people running more Raids.

This couldn't be further from the truth!

What they actually get a few people to do is run a Raid a whole load of times early then once they've got what they wanted from it never run it again!
Meanwhile those of us who didn't take part early never get to take part!

Bypasses also incentivise the short Raids over longer ones - Raids like FoT, MoD and DoJ get run over and over again but try getting a group for CitW!
Without bypasses people would run that CitW every 3 days as well as FoT, MoD, DoJ, Deathwyrm and FoTP - With bypasses they just run MoD or DoJ 10x in a row! {FoT not so much anymore but remember when it was FoT and CitW as the End-Game Raids.}.

[Powerhungry]

Bypasses also incentivise the short Raids over longer ones - Raids like FoT, MoD and DoJ get run over and over again but try getting a group for CitW!
Without bypasses people would run that CitW every 3 days as well as FoT, MoD, DoJ, Deathwyrm and FoTP - With bypasses they just run MoD or DoJ 10x in a row! {FoT not so much anymore but remember when it was FoT and CitW as the End-Game Raids.}.

People don't run CitW due to the really poor drop rate of commendations of heroism and named weapons. Why run a 45 minute raid and one comm (total) drop for the party? This has been mentioned many times (increasing the drop rate of comms to that of FoT) but the devs had decided to just let the raid die.

[dunklezhan]

I would prefer raid timers were limited in some way, I haven't really played a new raid since CITW because all the learning runs get done within the first week and then people only advertise 'know it' LFMs, if they advertise them at all.

Can we not just allow a legendary raid timer to be used anytime within the standard 3 day cooldown as a one shot 'interrupt' without affecting the overall cooldown? So they just allow you one additional shot at a raid before your 3 days are up? The cooldown on using any other timer would be 'when the raid goes off timer naturally'.

E.g. I do raid on day 1, 24 hours later I get the chance to run it again I use the timer but I still have the remining 48 hours to go before I can run it again - but also I can't use another raid timer until then either.

I don't object to raid timers as a "thing", and I don't resent the people who use them for getting loot quickly - but I believe timers essentially facilitate the rapid obsolesence of new content, which I then don't even get to experience, let alone get loot from.

[Silverleafeon]

....and then people only advertise 'know it' LFMs, if they advertise them at all.....

Well that certainly does not apply to Fawngate or most of the players on Khyber, perhaps you could use a new set of friends?

[DrWily]

Well that certainly does not apply to Fawngate or most of the players on Khyber, perhaps you could use a new set of friends?

This. I only play on Khyber (for obvious reasons) and everyone there is kind enough to teach players how to run a raid once it's figured out.

[slarden]

... For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store ...

But i´m afraid they´ll be as rare as Tomes and will disappear over time. The creation of bypassers anyway contributed too much to a decreasing raid-frequency for the average People and were "no good idea" from my Point of view.

With the new rune system replacing 20th reward lists there will be a new way to bypass the 3 day timer called "running an alt". Many people stopped doing this after U14, but people can dust off their alt, give them a refresh using the lessers given during the enhancement pass and pass them some nice necro, U27 and U28 gear and they will be raid-ready fairly quickly.

6 alts means you can run twice a day and never use a timer.

So I am sure people will continue to buy bypass timers, but the other option that now exists is to cycle alts through the raid. When your main character has what they need, keep running the raid and pass runes to your alt for better gear.

The new rune system alone has the potential to increase how often raids are run if people run through the raids with more alts. I know I will be doing that.

Some people seem to think that Raid Timer Bypasses get people running more Raids.

This couldn't be further from the truth!

What they actually get a few people to do is run a Raid a whole load of times early then once they've got what they wanted from it never run it again!
Meanwhile those of us who didn't take part early never get to take part!

There is an incentive to keep running after you get your gear now to get an item for an alt or stockpile runes for when a character changes builds.

[Hafeal]

I would prefer raid timers were limited in some way,

Oh, I agree.

1 bypass timer per character, per day.

Easy.

It covers the "Oh, I want to run that with friends guildies, but ... on timer." There you go. A RBT was for the oops or missed opportunity moment. It was never meant, in my mind, to be a mechanism to grind a raid to death in a day or two and completely trivialize the life of raids the way it did.

Let's add in, the devs, in reaction to the plethora of RBTs, have made raid loot drop rates incredibly abysmal. This really kills the joy and excitement for casual players, flower sniffers, role players and every play style except grinders.

[Anuulified]

If players purchased Raid Timer Bypasses in this week's sale with the intention of using them for Update 29's new raids, still have the timers available, and wish to seek a refund, please get in touch with Customer Support.

What about those of us who traded and bought them in game over a long period of time to use on future raids? I mean I have like 80 of them that are now useless. Who does old raids for gear anyways.....

Making matters worse, people wanted them removed from the game all together, or limited in their usage. This NERF did NONE of that, what it did do was create a new timer that will bring in money for Turbine, and oh yea, doesn't solve any of the original complaints or address much.

I think those of us with stockpiles of them from grinding and buying in-game should have an in-game option to switch them out to legendary, one for one!