Legendary Raids and Bypass Timers

[IronClan]

This! ^^

Just pls stop with the timers. They've done enough damage to the game already.

Look not every player has no job or family, we can't all be 17 years old again (much as I might want to), I would appreciate it if some of you, at least the ones who are intelligent enough to consider circumstances other than your own to be valid even when they don't apply to your situation, if you would think before writing silly requests like this.

There's a happy medium where Turbine has a popular source of TP sales, Players have a reasonable usage of convenience item and an economic resource to trade, and the game allows some flexibility in how we can play.

Timers in reasonable quantities allow people like me who might raid for 3 nights straight every other weekend to raid when I CAN, helping the raid scene by starting LFM's and joining them. I in effect still run roughly the same amount of raids and I do not get burned out (I'm not one of the people doing 20 a night or even 10... 2 or 3 usually tops.

No Timer bypasses is just as unhealthy for the raid scene (it would reduce the LFM's I put up or join by 2/3rds) as everyone having huge stacks of them is.

[slarden]

Reduce the timer. 3 days is to long.
No need for bypasses.

If they eliminate bypasses but increase the frequency with which they can be run, I would prefer a system like chest ransack that would allow us to run 8 raids in a 7 day running period or something like that.

There are many times where I can't play at all during the week and run only on the weekends. An 18 hr timer means I can still only get 2 runs in per week. A system like chest ransack would allow me to run the raids when I have free time.

Realistically with 3 raids and 6 alts that run raids, I will probably only use bypasses on the weekends anyhow. If I run 2 alts through the 3 raids per night I won't use any timers during the week and might use some on the weekends.

[IronClan]

There are half-a-dozen claims in this thread that "Raid Timer Bypass" allow parties to fill faster than before the introduction of "Raid Timer Bypass"
Again not a true statement. Raid parties for anything other than one or two specific raids never filled.

If you've been in 10 raids in the entire time Bypasses have existed, you've been in at least 6 or 8 raids where someone needed to use a timer because they forgot to turn in, or they forgot they were still on timer, or someone shared a timer with someone else who would have left, or they wanted someone to join them who didn't have a timer or, or, or.

If you raid you know that bypasses help raids fill

Anyone who doesn't see this either is completely out to lunch when raids form or is being dishonest in the attempt to sway Dev's that Bypasses are universally bad, because the Dev's don't play hard core enough to know better.

Stop trying to throw the baby out with the bath water, everything in moderation...

[IronClan]

If you want Raiding to last for 1 and a half weeks like the latest quests have lasted then just eliminate the 3 day timer...

Lets be real here, there are people who have zero concept of whats healthy for the game, whats reasonable or even whats for their own good. Many people when given the choice of eating the entire bag of cookies, do so then they get violently ill out both ends all night... then they don't want anything to do with coookies for a LONG time. They learn the hard way.... DDO can't afford to lose players to "learned not to do that the hard way". The game HAS to have measures in place that keep people from turning themselves into a technicolor vomit and dierrhea pin wheel. And it also HAS to have sources of income that preferably make dealing with those measures more flexible for the adults in the room who aren't inclined towards binge purge game/and self enjoyment ruining behavour.

[Ghwyn]

Get rid of timers and 20th completion lists and let ransack moderate the repeats. Stingy but good loot will increase the use of the game, rather than new good loot that is farmed in a day, with those people not returning until the next update. I ran von 5/6 about 100+ times to get all the parts of the SOS, and I loved it. Fun quest with good rewards that kept me coming back. I must say the drop rate was much too low for the dragon helm, though.

[Capricorpus]

Reduce the timer. 3 days is to long.
No need for bypasses.

I agree with this, but I doubt that they'd be willing to lose out on a potential source of $.

[Silverleafeon]

Hmm...well this follows the "with new Mabar comes new ingredients theories" which I find quite understandable.

Seems there will be a distinctions between legendary and epic raids+quests which makes sense.

I agree with not putting timer limits on timer bypasses, some people work, making good money with limited weekend time to raid?
How about that accountant major who plays DDO all during spring break (yes I meet her on Khyber)?

But timer bypasses are very important due to favor/first time/raid counters resetting upon TRing.
Its a solution to a problem, even if it offers its own set of complications.

Hopefully the rarer drop mythic items (not sure how that will work in epic shroud, how about +1 thru +4 mythic supreme shards?) will work against the old theories of 20 epic normal completions (also extra chests for epic shroud ingrediants will help).

I know last year, we had a intense discussion with the Devs about the frequency of raiding for 20 normal runs (NDA so will not elaborate) but the Devs were concerned.

I tend to run EN/EH questing on Fawngale with zero raiding simply trying to keep her in the range of what she can easily handle.
I tend to run EE questing on Fawngate with raiding difficulty varying depending upon the raid. Honestly, if she feels the party can handle above EN, then we will automatically go above that goal.

[Capricorpus]

Look not every player has no job or family, we can't all be 17 years old again (much as I might want to), I would appreciate it if some of you, at least the ones who are intelligent enough to consider circumstances other than your own to be valid even when they don't apply to your situation, if you would think before writing silly requests like this.

There's a happy medium where Turbine has a popular source of TP sales, Players have a reasonable usage of convenience item and an economic resource to trade, and the game allows some flexibility in how we can play.

That's a very big problem in my book. I'm of the opinion that the less options players have for paying real world money for in-game items the better. Allowing players such as yourself to pay TP to repeat a raid for an additional chance at pulling the item they want or a completion is fine, allowing people who're willing to pay to dominate the economy is not.

[Kwyjibo]

If you want Raiding to last for 1 and a half weeks like the latest quests have lasted then just eliminate the 3 day timer...

Lets be real here, there are people who have zero concept of whats healthy for the game, whats reasonable or even whats for their own good. Many people when given the choice of eating the entire bag of cookies, do so then they get violently ill out both ends all night... then they don't want anything to do with coookies for a LONG time. They learn the hard way.... DDO can't afford to lose players to "learned not to do that the hard way". The game HAS to have measures in place that keep people from turning themselves into a technicolor vomit and dierrhea pin wheel. And it also HAS to have sources of income that preferably make dealing with those measures more flexible for the adults in the room who aren't inclined towards binge purge game/and self enjoyment ruining behavour.

Let's be real here...the health of the game isn't a concern for some of us. I have no expectations for the longevity of this game beyond any day I am able to log in. I play to have fun, my definition of fun. Having to wait months for a single piece of equipment isn't my idea of fun. I want my new shinny now, so I can play the game with it.

And in case you haven't noticed this, there is a group of people that come back to the game just long enough to get gear from the new content and then they disappear again...which means these people will log in every 3 days to run the raids...they aren't going to spend any time in game, they will just run the raids. Are these the people you are hoping to bring back to the game?

You folks that continue to bemoan the health of the game are holding on to some glimmer of hope that the game will again return to the way it was a few years ago...NEWS FLASH...it ain't gonna happen. It's an old game...let it go...

[Silverleafeon]

...allowing people who're willing to pay to dominate the economy is not.

The only time I have ever bought a raid bypass timer and sold it on the plat auction house is when I made a toon on wayfinder as an iconic only to realize that I goofed making fvs cha too low to cast due to no tomes. So I bought two timers and dumped them on the plat auction house to get some plat to buy a cha item so I could cast blade barrier and start some questing to gain xp and more plat.


I seriously doubt anyone is going to waste real life money on timers to sell on the plat auction house unless face with new player blues (which does not last very long). Once one gets into upper heroics, plat comes easy if you are careful.


Now duplicated timers flooding the auction houses is certainly a real concern.

[IronClan]

That's a very big problem in my book. I'm of the opinion that the less options players have for paying real world money for in-game items the better. Allowing players such as yourself to pay TP to repeat a raid for an additional chance at pulling the item they want or a completion is fine, allowing people who're willing to pay to dominate the economy is not.

economic mini games add replay value and keep people logging in. the economy in DDO is on life support. I've never seen evidence that sellable resources cause any harm in any game I've ever played. Until someone points to some real harm that comes from a new player buying a stack of timers and then selling them to jump start their ability to buy things and participate in the economy I'll stick with my opinion that has formed from the very first days of the MMORPG genre playing MUD's and Meridian 59 and UO... Lacking an economy conversely has made many an online game a poorer experience.

There's NOTHING wrong with being able to sell timers.

[Qhualor]

Since on the subject of raid timers and I don't think I've read anything from the devs about working out a way to revitalize old raids.

I would like to suggest reducing the raid timer for all HEROIC raids to 1 day. The reason being

1. More players would run them. Shroud I suspect to be the most popular raid, but can still be tough to get a full raid group at any time of day or day of week.

2. Much of the loot is outdated, while the rest is usually useful for a couple levels. Certainly could use some of the raid loot into epics, but you don't see Leviks Bracers or Torcs in any end game builds. First lifers and those on heroic TR lives get the most benefit.

Only Turbine knows, but I can't imagine many raid timer bypasses are bought to use on heroic raids. Other than xp adjustments and improvements to old loot or new loot considered to be must have like TOD rings and Seven Fingered Gloves used to be, this is the only other thing I can think of. I don't see a potential loss of money for Turbine by doing this change.

[GoldyGopher]

If you've been in 10 raids in the entire time Bypasses have existed, you've been in at least 6 or 8 raids where someone needed to use a timer because they forgot to turn in, or they forgot they were still on timer, or someone shared a timer with someone else who would have left, or they wanted someone to join them who didn't have a timer or, or, or.

If you raid you know that bypasses help raids fill

Anyone who doesn't see this either is completely out to lunch when raids form or is being dishonest in the attempt to sway Dev's that Bypasses are universally bad, because the Dev's don't play hard core enough to know better.

Stop trying to throw the baby out with the bath water, everything in moderation...

Let's be honest here if the baby is dead, it needs to go out with the bath water.

I have advocated since the original announcement of "Raid Timer Bypasses" that Turbine mitigate the potential for abuse of the system. I have suggested making the "Raid Timer Bypasses" be on a one day timer or used to disrupt a timer once for every three days. I also advocated to reducing the timer length to 44 hours.

The problem now is the average player has what a week, lets stretch that out and say a month from the launch of new raid to get in there and get their 20 runs done before it becomes a chore to complete.

The raiding culture prior to the introduction of "Raid Timer Bypasses" was pretty robust. There were dozens of opportunities to run raids on Khyber for the general populace every evening and for those of us that were a little more hard core there was even more opportunities. It wasn't uncommon to see four five or six raids posted at the same time.
Today dozens of opportunities has become a small handful.

After MotU was launched there were 6 different raids run very regularly. Today I would have to lower my even lower standards to say a couple raids are run regularly.

Prior to "Raid Bypass Timers" if you screwed up, you bit your lip and found a different raid run. On timer for VON run TOD instead.
Raids back then rarely filled because you only needed a few core individuals and once you had your core group you started. Only 8 in TOD, no problem lets go.

I have pointed out in several threads that the raid scene needs multiple "end game" raids at the same time, at least four.

Today there is a segment of players who run one or two raids more because of "Raid Timer Bypasses" and that has never been in question. However that segment of the population keeps getting smaller and smaller in comparison to active player pool. There are lots of reasons that is true. Lag, lack of reward, boredom.

Turbine simply giving us a "Legendary Raid Timer Bypass" without addressing the problems of the raid scene is simply a cash grab. I want more and I think I deserve more from Turbine and the Devs.

[Hesiodthepoet]

For me this is a step in the wrong direction. I have a very busy schedule, but when I do get time to play it is usually in one or two fairly long blocks a week. I like the idea of being able to run the raid I need 5 or 6 times so that it doesn't take me several months just to get one item. If all raid items were BTA instead of BTC, then I could see the argument for using multiple toons to farm for that item. As it stands, if I can only run once a week, that means it will be 5 months before I get a chance at a 20th list. If the cost of the new timers were dropped significantly I would be ok too. I am VIP and so get 500 TP a month for paying a subscription. If I could use that 500 TP to buy 20 bypasses so I can farm my item in a month, that would again seem fair to me. Somehow I doubt that will be the case though. If anything just remove the 3 day timer and make it weekly. Set the limit at 5 runs per week or something. Please don't change my style of gameplay just to solve a problem that not everyone thinks is a problem.

[IronClan]

the health of the game isn't a concern for some of us. I have no expectations for the longevity of this game beyond any day I am able to log in. I play to have fun, my definition of fun. Having to wait months for a single piece of equipment isn't my idea of fun. I want my new shinny now, so I can play the game with it.

I know it's not a concern for some of you, which is why I just said those people ultimately need to be ignored in favor of whats best for the game. "Having to wait" = "having to keep playing" Not having to wait = Not having a reason to keep playing.

I guess I can respect the fact that you are at least honest in your desire to make the game terrible for people who actually like logging in more frequently than 1 week per update, but it's a purely theoretical kind of respect.

You need your item in 1 week or you'll quit? LOL yeah right. IMO that's a great reason to make it take at least 3 to 6 months... History has shown that "I get it this week or I'm out" is 99% just pure bluster and threat. hell the ONLY time you're going to leave after a week is when you DO get the item in that week.

eSoS is poof that people keep playing content YEARS LATER when they want something, I know someone who took 5 years! it took me 200 runs over 4. Tor is proof that your threats of leaving are empty (or even if they are actually real for some tiny minority % you're going to leave in a week when you get it anyway) as recent updates have shown: BTA loot = 1 1/2 week quest longevity. bad for the game, bad for you, even though you don't know why.

Sorry raids are going to be longer than a week, deal with it. No player is important enough to satiate such a minuscule idea of the games longevity by pandering to it... It's actually better to lose players like that than to lose the people who actually LIKE having goals and things to do within DDO because they log in and keep playing between updates. 1 full time player is probably worth 4 "I only want to play DDO for a week every 4 months" players.

[auntjobiska]

Guys

What part of Cordovan's post implies any sort of actual discussion that might have an impact on a decision that has already been made? I read it as that - 'We have decided that we are making new RTB for new raids and the old ones will not work in the new raids'.

End of.

You are all just wasting your time making suggestions that will be ignored by Turbine.

AJ

[Kwyjibo]

I know it's not a concern for some of you, which is why I just said those people ultimately need to be ignored in favor of whats best for the game. "Having to wait" = "having to keep playing" Not having to wait = Not having a reason to keep playing.

I guess I can respect the fact that you are at least honest in your desire to make the game terrible for people who actually like logging in more frequently than 1 week per update, but it's a purely theoretical kind of respect.

You need your item in 1 week or you'll quit? LOL yeah right. IMO that's a great reason to make it take at least 3 to 6 months... History has shown that "I get it this week or I'm out" is 99% just pure bluster and threat. hell the ONLY time you're going to leave after a week is when you DO get the item in that week.

eSoS is poof that people keep playing content YEARS LATER when they want something, I know someone who took 5 years! it took me 200 runs over 4. Tor is proof that your threats of leaving are empty (or even if they are actually real for some tiny minority % you're going to leave in a week when you get it anyway) as recent updates have shown: BTA loot = 1 1/2 week quest longevity. bad for the game, bad for you, even though you don't know why.

Sorry raids are going to be longer than a week, deal with it. No player is important enough to satiate such a minuscule idea of the games longevity by pandering to it... It's actually better to lose players like that than to lose the people who actually LIKE having goals and things to do within DDO because they log in and keep playing between updates. 1 full time player is probably worth 4 "I only want to play DDO for a week every 4 months" players.

LOL same ol IC, gosh how I missed arguing with you.

So ignoring some segment of the population because you don't agree is a healthy thing?

I log in very nearly every day and play for 3 to 4 hours per day, nice failed assumption.

I never said or even thought "I need my shiny in one week or I'll quit", again, nice failed assumption.

Yep, no more running raids ad nauseam, meh, not my preference, but I will deal. But stop kidding yourself and spewing forth the nonsense that all of the sudden the raid scene will be better than ever...

[Cordovan]

If players purchased Raid Timer Bypasses in this week's sale with the intention of using them for Update 29's new raids, still have the timers available, and wish to seek a refund, please get in touch with Customer Support.

[JOTMON]

Reduce the timer. 3 days is to long.
No need for bypasses.

^ This.. sort of..

Eliminate timers let players run as much as they want in the time they have to play.
Instead of selling raid bypasses, sell ransack timer resets. (don't forge to add expiry dates)

[esojiul]

Hello! We're writing today to let you know about a change in the way raid timer bypasses work in Legendary raids. We want to get this information out to you now, rather than wait before you see it on Lamannia, to separate out the discussion, and focus feedback on other aspects of Update 29 when Lamannia arrives with its first preview soon.

Update 29 introduces Legendary raiding to DDO, which are new raids that are CR31+. For Legendary raids, players will be able to bypass the three-day raid timer through the use of a Legendary Raid Timer Bypass, which will be available in Silver and Gold Daily Dice, as a rare chest drop, and in the DDO Store. Non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses will keep their current functionality in non-Legendary raids, and we will not be adjusting their ability to be used consecutively.

We've heard from the community about the impact that non-Legendary Raid Timer Bypasses have had over the past few years, including a desire by some to set usage limits on these timers. The feedback we've received on this subject has been often controversial and mixed, and we've spent quite a bit of time discussing the issue internally. We prefer to allow the current timers to function as they are without adjustment. The number of raid timer bypasses in the game is immense; partially due to duplication exploits of the past, and partially due to the volume of timers given out in the past via Daily Dice and the 8th Anniversary Card Event, which was too high. Regardless of the cause, we want to respond to the desire by the community to make sure our raiding scene remains healthy, and do it in a way that limits the impact on players' current timer functionality, by making this change.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks!

Love the idea: Legendary level Raids, no by passtimer, and will be great-- all raids has it Legendary Levels